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Lemming posted:Yeah. I find VR as a whole pretty disappointing at the moment. It feels like a lot of the design has kind of stagnated, and we're seeing way too many stick locomotion shooting games instead of things that are fresh and new This is sort of what one would expect, like the way most “flat” games are M&K or twin-stick controller. If you aren’t specifically looking to innovate around locomotion, you copy something that seems to work elsewhere rather than doing the hard and uncertain work of inventing a new control model that might be a bit better in terms of meshing with the game’s mechanics and theme. I’m glad some people—no names—are starting from a more innovative place with control systems, but the nature of these things is that you end up with a few local maxima that cover most use cases “well enough” and it’s only for unusual cases that have enough creative systems energy behind them that you see alternatives attempted, let alone succeed. Novel locomotion in VR feels like a high-risk, high-reward space to play in, and a lot of people aren’t going to want to focus their energy or risk budget on that aspect of their game. Let FRL and Valve figure that poo poo out and copy what works. I don’t think that’s really an indictment of the ecosystem as much as a sign that there are probably orders of magnitude fewer good locomotion ideas than there are good ideas for other aspects of the experience. I am pretty glad that most VR titles don’t have some totally novel system for moving around, because getting comfortable with a new VR thing is already more taxing than for a flat game. (I think you might also underestimate how hard it is to tune an unusual locomotion system, because you are one of very few who have done a good job with it from first principles. Most people honestly just are not as thoughtful and insightful as you are on this topic, and I’m sort of OK not having to wade through a bunch of novel-but-janky movement systems to play various games.)
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Mar 10, 2021 21:47
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Lemming posted:Yeah. I find VR as a whole pretty disappointing at the moment. It feels like a lot of the design has kind of stagnated, and we're seeing way too many stick locomotion shooting games instead of things that are fresh and new Oh, you just nailed that feeling about Alyx that's been bothering me all this time! I think the game on it's own is impressive, but apart from fancy highly optimized graphics and high level of polish, it doesn't really add anything new to learn from, at least from a VR development point-of-view. It barely even uses the Index finger tracking it was designed alongside, and they hosed up the launch so hard it came out a year after the hardware. Even though the finger tracking isn't a crucial thing for gameplay, if you can add it to a game easily, it can add a whole bunch to the experience. But implementing it properly is extremely painful at the moment, at least in UE4.
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Mar 10, 2021 21:47
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AndrewP posted:seriously? I mean if you think Alyx sucks then you must have extremely low opinions on the rest of what VR has to offer They think the game is too limiting and prefer things like Boneworks that try to do more with sandbox freedom and physics. But Boneworks makes me feel sick so like I said, different strokes for different folks. I love how polished Alyx is and how much I can get in-character in the world.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:01
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explosivo posted:I'd say almost none of the games I play fit this bill. As a relative newcomer to VR it seems like there's a ton of stuff out there that isn't stick locomotion shooting games I think enough of VR games are niche and don't have a ton of marketing so its easy to miss what all is even available right now other than the few top names we always talk about ITT. Like, there's still VR games that have been on steam for years that I've never heard about that actually look cool. Subjunctive posted:This is sort of what one would expect, like the way most “flat” games are M&K or twin-stick controller. If you aren’t specifically looking to innovate around locomotion, you copy something that seems to work elsewhere rather than doing the hard and uncertain work of inventing a new control model that might be a bit better in terms of meshing with the game’s mechanics and theme. I’m glad some people—no names—are starting from a more innovative place with control systems, but the nature of these things is that you end up with a few local maxima that cover most use cases “well enough” and it’s only for unusual cases that have enough creative systems energy behind them that you see alternatives attempted, let alone succeed. Yeah this is all spot on.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:03
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explosivo posted:I'd say almost none of the games I play fit this bill. As a relative newcomer to VR it seems like there's a ton of stuff out there that isn't stick locomotion shooting games I think this is also absolutely true, but if I had to guess I would bet that a lot of the stuff that isn't are things that have actually been out for a while. If you've been obsessing over VR for years (like I think a lot of us here have been), it kind of feels like things are petering out in terms of innovation. It feels like a lot of the more experimental things happened at the start, but recently it's been more and more iterations on what's already there instead of things that are new. Of course this isn't the whole story, but it feels like the general trend. Subjunctive posted:This is sort of what one would expect, like the way most “flat” games are M&K or twin-stick controller. If you aren’t specifically looking to innovate around locomotion, you copy something that seems to work elsewhere rather than doing the hard and uncertain work of inventing a new control model that might be a bit better in terms of meshing with the game’s mechanics and theme. I’m glad some people—no names—are starting from a more innovative place with control systems, but the nature of these things is that you end up with a few local maxima that cover most use cases “well enough” and it’s only for unusual cases that have enough creative systems energy behind them that you see alternatives attempted, let alone succeed. Yeah, I mean I totally agree with this. I understand *why* things are happening this way, and I don't mean to poo poo on people (too much) who are contributing to the trend, since that's just the way things go. I still find it massively disappointing because there are some experiences that are really next level and make it feel like VR can live up to the expectations, and then there's just so much that isn't. I also see how things can go wrong, and it feels so loving lovely to see a lot of the more indie titles where people are clearly putting love and hard work into their games and then nobody plays them.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:06
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Lemming posted:I think this is also absolutely true, but if I had to guess I would bet that a lot of the stuff that isn't are things that have actually been out for a while. If you've been obsessing over VR for years (like I think a lot of us here have been), it kind of feels like things are petering out in terms of innovation. It feels like a lot of the more experimental things happened at the start, but recently it's been more and more iterations on what's already there instead of things that are new. Of course this isn't the whole story, but it feels like the general trend. Games take a long time to make. VR is still a small enough space there's not that many developers dipping in, and some who have had a bad experience and went back to making flatscreen games. Innovation is definitely still happening.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:12
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I'm totally fine with smooth, stick based locomotion. It made me sick a little bit when I first tried it, but eventually I just adjusted to it the same as jumping, etc. Not everybody can, so we could definitely use more, better options. For some reason vehicle movement in VR does really make me sick though. Some people can't do smooth locomotion but can do vehicles, but I'm the opposite. I tried Ultrawings the other day and felt a little sick, enough to quit after like 20 minutes.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:39
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Squadrons was a very immersive, new experience for me in VR and that was relatively recent. Elite and stuff existed, but having an experience like that in a tight narrative form was pretty awesome. I think some of the feeling of "where's the innovation?" is coming from the fact that you've mostly "caught up" with the industry that is still moving forward at a solid pace. We're also in kind of a weird space where the Quest 2 suddenly made the hardware WAY more mainstream and accessible in a sudden leap. Before then I would have argued the software was mostly ahead of the hardware, since it was still a bear just to get a good hardware experience. I can't really blame the software world for not being ready for that huge leap.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:42
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Speaking as someone who loved boneworks and didn't finish alyx, I'm really enjoying into the radius. The jank doesn't bother me at all, and it absolutely nails the basic STALKER formula, but with the ability to climb things, peek around cover, and otherwise have a decent amount of VR features. There are still too many invisible walls for my taste, I'd like to be able to crawl over anything boneworks-style. That being said, at this point it's still even jankier than boneworks, so it's definitely not one for the alyx tribe who can't forgive the pop-in on PS3-era graphics, stuff randomly poking through walls, or other unpolished things filling it. There do seem to be two somewhat separate groups of VR enthusiasts - "sandbox" people who can tolerate flaws but want physics playgrounds and freedom and most dislike it when they aren't able to do things they could do in real life like climb over a pile of boxes, and "immersion" people who want polish, a decent story, and most dislike anything immersion-breaking like graphical errors or controls problems.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:46
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Lockback posted:Squadrons was a very immersive, new experience for me in VR and that was relatively recent. Elite and stuff existed, but having an experience like that in a tight narrative form was pretty awesome. I think some of the feeling of "where's the innovation?" is coming from the fact that you've mostly "caught up" with the industry that is still moving forward at a solid pace. Also all those people with new Quest 2 headsets are a very different target audience from the PCVR players who have 3 years of gaming under their belt. If you're targeting Quest 2 people, you're targeting people who this may be their first VR game. So its natural to err on the side of caution. As the number of people with VR HMDs increases and the amount of time those people have had them increases, we'll see more of the "hardcore" VR experiences getting funded. But even now I think there's more innovation in VR even as a niche market than there is in AAA games. We're still mostly making doom-clones! 
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Mar 10, 2021 22:52
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I finally got my hands on the VR Cover fabric cover, and it's pretty good! Covers the horrible foam on the stock headset, works pretty well with the soft interface Oculus were sending out as a replacement too, and while I didn't do a full workout with it, the lenses weren't fogging up at the point where I would expect them to be after a few rounds of Master difficulty in Synth Riders.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:08
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I'm less concerned about jank in graphics and more interested in the dev doing a lot of testing to make decisions about what works and doesn't work. Think about how Alyx doesn't have a crowbar - a crowbar missing in Half-Life! But they couldn't get it to feel good or work correctly, and in the name of delivering a uniformly good experience they canned it. People talk about the money and resources that went into Alyx, but that's just a design decision that helped that game not feel like the flimsy tech demo that so many others do. Boneworks was basically the kitchen sink - full IK, no limits on melee, climbing, whatever. But none of it feels super well-implemented to me.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:09
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One thing that would be interesting is having regular peripherals like keyboards, mice and joysticks that the vr headsets can “see” so you can use them in app without having to cautiously feel around for them. Some kind of ir pulses the headsets can see?
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Mar 10, 2021 23:10
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AndrewP posted:I'm less concerned about jank in graphics and more interested in the dev doing a lot of testing to make decisions about what works and doesn't work. Fair enough. I'm definitely far on the sandbox side, and don't quite understand the mentality of the immersion people, but that doesn't make y'all wrong or worse. Personally, I'd far rather have the option to do physically do something that doesn't always feel good or work perfectly than just have an invisible wall and a "press A to jump over the barrier" prompt with a canned animation. Jumping and climbing in boneworks was far from perfect, but I still really liked it overall. I guess the frustration I get from being unable to do something because of invisible walls is worse for me than the frustration from a poorly implemented feature, while for some that order is reversed?
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Mar 10, 2021 23:26
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Butt Discussin posted:I guess the frustration I get from being unable to do something because of invisible walls is worse for me than the frustration from a poorly implemented feature, while for some that order is reversed? Speaking for myself, I'm definitely the reverse. I tend to approach games with a mindset of "what does the developer want me to do here?" because I play a lot of puzzle games where you have to be constantly asking yourself what the game is trying to teach you. When the game is unclear about what it wants from me, or wants something that it implements in a cumbersome way (like that early puzzle in Boneworks where you get on top of a ledge by stacking a bunch of these giant foam blocks that are twice as big as you are and super awkward to maneuver), that's when I get frustrated.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:45
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Xaintrailles posted:For Quest 2 virtual desktop wireless, it is possible to use 2.4 GHz wifi for the connection to the internet router? ... Thanks for all the help with this everyone. I couldn't get network bridge mode to work. Internet connection sharing mode does work for 2.4 GHz->ethernet but seems to need a reboot to kick in, not sure how well it'll work with a router on the other end of the cable. Grashnak posted:Is it not possible to have your internet router do a 5GHz network? I've tried it with the PC and quest both connected to the router with 5GHz Internet router -- 5 GHz -- Quest | 5 GHz | PC It works but quality is noticably worse than my USB cable (which isn't even full speed) - low framerate on my hands, bit headachey. However, it sounds like replacing the router with a fast MU-MIMO one would make that setup work OK, and would be a lot cleaner, although more expensive. Guess I'm buying one of those routers that looks like a spiderdemon hosed a stealth bomber.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:47
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Turin Turambar posted:New HTC hardware (no headsets!) You've missed the punchline; The facial-tracker is for the Vive Pro, the headset they've semi-retired, and not their illustrious darling Vive Cosmos  .Also the 3.0 Trackers are more expensive than the 2.0's, so I think they're gonna get bodied by the Tundra Labs ones if those price cheaper like they claim.
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Mar 11, 2021 02:37
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You've missed the punchline; The facial-tracker is for the Vive Pro, the headset they've semi-retired, and not their illustrious darling Vive Cosmos Is the Pro Eye also semi-retired? It's pretty funny that it's not for the Cosmos though.
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Mar 11, 2021 03:15
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Brooks Cracktackle posted:Is the Pro Eye also semi-retired? It's pretty funny that it's not for the Cosmos though. No, but the Pro Eye is supposed to be a much more of a "professional-use" headset than the Vive Pro was and you can't get the headset on its own, so the use-case they're trying to present it for is pretty drat obtuse. If they'd just left the Vive Pro alone, it'd be fairing much better. And embarrass the Cosmos by being an almost-completely better upgrade from a regular Vive, but that's probably why it had to die in the first place and the Pro got put up on the high shelf without a standalone HMD option. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 04:03
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You've missed the punchline; The facial-tracker is for the Vive Pro, the headset they've semi-retired, and not their illustrious darling Vive Cosmos Speaking of: https://twitter.com/OlivierJT_SU/status/1369698371959685120 Basically same price before the price hike. I kind of figured this is why they were waiting so long to announce, you don't start saving money til you buy like 5.
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Mar 11, 2021 04:28
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Kazy posted:Speaking of: quote:Vive 3.0 tracker vs Tundra Tracker: $130USD per 3.0 Tracker, vs $95USD per Tundra Tracker, and $300USD gets you a 3-tracker set + a single dongle that is capable of driving all three. They're also even smaller and have built-in strap mounts. There's literally zero reason to get a Vive Tracker 3.0 vs a Tundra Tracker  .
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Mar 11, 2021 05:55
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marumaru posted:https://research.fb.com/blog/2020/05/deepfovea-ar-vr-rendering-inspired-by-human-vision/ I can't remember if it was a facebook research thing or some other eye tracking talk, but it had some great slow mo footage of eyeballs deforming and pupils elongating as the eye darted around then springing back and forth as they stopped, showing the difficulties in perfect tracking. Gross stuff! Lemming posted:Yeah. I find VR as a whole pretty disappointing at the moment. It feels like a lot of the design has kind of stagnated, and we're seeing way too many stick locomotion shooting games instead of things that are fresh and new I still wish more people would straight up rip off zero-g movement from the echo games for other stuff. I'd love to play an RPG, roguelike, shooter, mmo, whatever in a zero-g sci fi world. priznat posted:One thing that would be interesting is having regular peripherals like keyboards, mice and joysticks that the vr headsets can “see” so you can use them in app without having to cautiously feel around for them. Some kind of ir pulses the headsets can see? Theres been a few attempts at this that haven't really gone anywhere. Logitech teased a keyboard that would work, or adapter to work with vive trackers to put it in the game, but I think they pretty much dropped that idea.  More recently Oculus has been talking about some keyboard virtualization stuff using the tracking cameras, but its kind of up in the air how well adopted it will be, or well it will work, or even if it would apply to link. I mean they still haven't done anything to add the hand tracking functionality, as gimmicky as it can be, to the PC side of things when using link. I think you want to have some hand tracking though to go with it. I mean I can touch type fine, but even for myself it would be weird to just have a keyboard in the right place but not see fingers working over it.
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Mar 11, 2021 06:46
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Neddy Seagoon posted:$130USD per 3.0 Tracker, vs $95USD per Tundra Tracker, and $300USD gets you a 3-tracker set + a single dongle that is capable of driving all three. They're also even smaller and have built-in strap mounts. There's literally zero reason to get a Vive Tracker 3.0 vs a Tundra Tracker The Tundra Trackers aren't out yet, and they're going to Kickstarter to secure the funding to even put them in production. There's still healthy amounts of skepticism you can take regarding them.
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Mar 11, 2021 07:10
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ishikabibble posted:The Tundra Trackers aren't out yet, and they're going to Kickstarter to secure the funding to even put them in production. There's still healthy amounts of skepticism you can take regarding them. Quite incorrect; They already have production organized (they started the ball rolling on purchasing components late last year because of COVID), the Kickstarter's to cover the costs and ship from June for the early backers. The only reason it starts in end of March is so people aren't waiting like six months to get them from purchase.
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Mar 11, 2021 07:16
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Its a shame that by its nature theres no way to make passive trackers for lighthouse. It would be really neat if they were just unpowered things that could but stuck on objects and such. I'm not even sure if price is the biggest factor in them being so niche, or if its more the friction of having to keep all these little things charged up for when you want to use them, then worrying about the batteries dying in the middle while strapping them all over. The tech is cool, cheaper smaller trackers are really neat to finally see, but I would be shocked if the uses for trackers or the amount of people using them changes at all with these new one's release.
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Mar 11, 2021 07:31
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Tom Guycot posted:Its a shame that by its nature theres no way to make passive trackers for lighthouse. It would be really neat if they were just unpowered things that could but stuck on objects and such. I'm not even sure if price is the biggest factor in them being so niche, or if its more the friction of having to keep all these little things charged up for when you want to use them, then worrying about the batteries dying in the middle while strapping them all over. Actually a Swedish student developed a passive tracking puck with an external camera basestation just recently. It's "only" sub-centimeter accuracy instead of sub-millimeter, but it should be interesting to how they turn out.
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Mar 11, 2021 07:57
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Thats pretty cool, will be interesting to see if anything comes of it. I still think its going to take someone releasing a simple like, $99 or less camera, that sits on a desk and does body tracking visually, wrapped up in a slick package that can be integrated well into existing software before body tracking itself starts taking off. Though, the unpowered tracker thing would be pretty slick if you could just slap them on a mug, keyboard, dog, chair, and all kinds of random objects.
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Mar 11, 2021 08:07
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Tom Guycot posted:I can't remember if it was a facebook research thing or some other eye tracking talk, but it had some great slow mo footage of eyeballs deforming and pupils elongating as the eye darted around then springing back and forth as they stopped, showing the difficulties in perfect tracking. Gross stuff! Drift, tremors, and saccades! Because your eyes only have full resolution at 1 degree of visual acuity (the size of your thumbnail at arm’s length), they’re constantly bouncing around to scan your environment unless you’re specifically tracking something. Off the shelf eye tracking hardware (a few years ago when I used it) cost a few grand and certainly wasn’t doing even 60hz. I can’t see consumer level stuff and the insane amount of computation necessary for it being ready for years.
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Mar 11, 2021 08:25
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Anyone use EBL Li-ion AAs for vr controller batteries? I was all set to order a set of NiMH eneloops when a friend mentioned that the lower voltage (1.2v vs 1.5) would mean they would not work that well if at all. Glad he mentioned that! Li-Ions at 1.5v like regular alkalines seem to be a good bet. NiZn is another option but much fewer charge cycles per battery, apparently. Anyway EBL has some Li-Ion 3300mWh (nice trick to boost the rating by not using mAh) that have a microusb plug in the top of each battery and I am thinking of getting a set of those (includes charge cable) when they come back in stock. E: I should have specified this is for the reverb G2 which takes 2 batteries per controller and from all reports does not work very good with the 1.2v NiMH vvvv priznat fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 08:34
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1.2v works well enough.
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Mar 11, 2021 08:35
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It seems the AppLab thingie is finally working, they had new entries for the past 3 days https://applabdb.com/new
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Mar 11, 2021 08:36
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Holy poo poo. A friend I hadn't physically seen in years, though we talk via Discord constantly, picked up Beat Saber and we tried out the multiplayer. It's astonishing how much of a difference the body language of physical presence makes, even with the simplistic Beat Saber avatars. It's such a big psychological difference. Maybe it wouldn't have the same impact without quarantine, but I finally believe that VR will end up being a profound game-changer for digital communication as the tech is refined. I am also realizing how all the stories about fitness fanatics exercising themselves to death in group settings happen. Because of doing Beat Saber as a team/group activity, my body just straight up did not acknowledge how far I was pushing it. I straight couldn't feel it until taking the headset off and signing out of Discord. Might not have been so bad if I hadn't already been playing for an hour before he messaged me, but fuuuuuuuuck me. 
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Mar 11, 2021 09:46
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theflyingexecutive posted:Drift, tremors, and saccades! Because your eyes only have full resolution at 1 degree of visual acuity (the size of your thumbnail at arm’s length), they’re constantly bouncing around to scan your environment unless you’re specifically tracking something. Actually, eye tracking is super easy. Just put a touch screen inside the headset! 
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Mar 11, 2021 10:54
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Corbeau posted:I am also realizing how all the stories about fitness fanatics exercising themselves to death in group settings happen. Because of doing Beat Saber as a team/group activity, my body just straight up did not acknowledge how far I was pushing it. This is why I'm getting a better workout from Thrill of the Fight than I've gotten pretty much all quarantine. In real life I get my cardio from hockey and it's the same thing, you don't notice how dead you are when the game is over. When I'm doing stuff like riding a stationary bike though all I can think about is how much I want to stop. But when you add a game element to it it's like my self-preservation systems turn off.
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Mar 11, 2021 14:28
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Xaintrailles posted:Thanks for all the help with this everyone. I couldn't get network bridge mode to work. Internet connection sharing mode does work for 2.4 GHz->ethernet but seems to need a reboot to kick in, not sure how well it'll work with a router on the other end of the cable. This setup will always be kinda bad. In order for your quest to talk to your PC it'll need to go over the wifi connection to the router, then another to the PC. A different router may help somewhat but you'll struggle with latency issues.
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Mar 11, 2021 14:50
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Tom Guycot posted:I can't remember if it was a facebook research thing or some other eye tracking talk, but it had some great slow mo footage of eyeballs deforming and pupils elongating as the eye darted around then springing back and forth as they stopped, showing the difficulties in perfect tracking. Gross stuff! yeah, i couldn't find it 
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Mar 11, 2021 14:50
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Tom Guycot posted:Theres been a few attempts at this that haven't really gone anywhere. Logitech teased a keyboard that would work, or adapter to work with vive trackers to put it in the game, but I think they pretty much dropped that idea. That kind of thing sounds like it would be hell release for SteamVR, since you'd likely need Valve to add support for it into the API, and yeah...
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Mar 11, 2021 14:56
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I know people really like Thrill of the Fight, but it just doesn't work for me. There's no feedback on what you're doing or a UI to facilitate it. Your opponent kind of gets a bit scuffed up, I guess? But I know absolutely nothing about boxing, and there's no health bars, pop ups, announcer, really anything that any other video game would use to indicate that you're causing damage and making progress. After trying to properly beat up the other guy and losing, I tried as an experiment to just drumroll punches into him constantly, and found a way of positioning where the AI basically never attacked back, and I still lost. So there's clearly something the game wants you to do to succeed, but doesn't tell you apart from a simple win/lose at the very end. I guess it can be a good workout if you just go for it, but I need some kind of structure or feedback, otherwise it feels completely hollow to me. After a minute of playing and the opponent just keeping on going the same as he started, I feel kind of awkward about continuing, like doing stand-up to an empty room.
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Mar 11, 2021 14:56
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getting good (lol) at h3vr is the same as getting good at any vr game, practice and forming muscle memory. neither of these things are particularly appealing or easy, respectively. beat saber is a great vr demo because you dont use the buttons or the joystick during the actual game, its just about moving your arms, the thing thats actually new about vr
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Mar 11, 2021 15:04
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:I know people really like Thrill of the Fight, but it just doesn't work for me. There's no feedback on what you're doing or a UI to facilitate it. Your opponent kind of gets a bit scuffed up, I guess? But I know absolutely nothing about boxing, and there's no health bars, pop ups, announcer, really anything that any other video game would use to indicate that you're causing damage and making progress. After trying to properly beat up the other guy and losing, I tried as an experiment to just drumroll punches into him constantly, and found a way of positioning where the AI basically never attacked back, and I still lost. So there's clearly something the game wants you to do to succeed, but doesn't tell you apart from a simple win/lose at the very end. Its a shadowboxing game, not a boxing game. That's not communicated super well but yeah, it doesn't really encourage you to try to "game" it, it wants you to go a distance of time with boxing techniques. How are you losing? Getting knocked out? Then you need to keep your gloves up more. You're hitting but not knocking them down? You need to punch harder. There's a training dummy that you can go against that gives immediate feedback on hit "power" as well as the places on the body that give bonuses. Just touching your glove on the opponent won't do damage (like touching a glove on someone won't knock them down), you gotta go for crosses and hooks. The first guy on easy should give you lots of opportunities to do this. It took me a while before I was KOing people reliably even on normal but now I do so even on outclassed. You should be really tired even after the first round. If you're not, thats probably the problem.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:37
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