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Platystemon)
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silentsnack posted:For the most part, until drones with multiple lightweight integrated video cameras came out, any attempt at making remote-operated weapons would be limited by your ability to see what the device is doing, where it's going, wait what's my target again?? Or, literally, a guy with a smartphone who can drop you a google map pin for gps coordinates.
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Mar 11, 2021 08:44
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The Oldest Man posted:Or, literally, a guy with a smartphone who can drop you a google map pin for gps coordinates. With 2010s-era tech, sure. ISIS dropped homebrew explosives using off-the-shelf kit drones, and shitposted in Texas Sharpshooter's Fallacy style celebration of the few that coincidentally landed near something resembling a target. And the response was washington thunktanks saying "wait what someone actually tried that? aww poo poo man, now we gotta write a manual and bill a few hundred million in consulting fees lmao" The key word "until" that I failed to emphasize was the issue of when the RC toy bomber scare happened (90s? can't remember exactly) the people who could have successfully weaponized model vehicles (the exact measure of success being outside the scope) would have had no need to because either they would have better hardware and methods (military/police or major criminal organizations wanting to assassinate a judge, or coldwar spy novel hitmanns or whatev) or wouldn't need such a precision weapon at all (since when do terrorists care about bystanders? They'd just spam RPGs to level the neighborhood and call it a day.)
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Mar 11, 2021 09:38
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Farm Frenzy posted:i paint the word SCHOOL on the top of my military base in an adversarial attack but it just makes the drones more aggressive Painting northrop grumman on there will work until they switch to GE drones
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Mar 11, 2021 10:14
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Use trompe‐l’œil to make a patch of dirt look like a terrorist training camp so you can collect bombs for scrap metal.
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Mar 11, 2021 10:35
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https://twitter.com/Soya_Cincau/status/1369946439112069123?s=19
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Mar 11, 2021 10:48
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Mar 11, 2021 11:08
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One of the big limitations of drones is also bandwidth- sending and receiving data. You have to choose between bandwidth and latency, ability to operate in a wide area, or strong encryption and good security so especially given the clown show domestic law enforcement is I have no doubt they’ll purchase vulnerable drones. This could also lead to a “oops lol we got hacked and shot knife missiles the protest” after it becomes widely known it’s possible for police drones to be hacked. Farm Frenzy posted:self driving cars dont exist They’re not great right now but they kinda do.
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Mar 11, 2021 13:50
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:They’re not great right now but they kinda do.
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Mar 11, 2021 17:19
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Mar 11, 2021 17:20
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All cars are self driving cars once you equip them with a brick on the accelerator, they’re just not great at it.
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Mar 11, 2021 17:22
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teslas have self driven themselves under semi trucks decapitating their owners several times to be fair to elon
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Mar 11, 2021 17:45
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Real hurthling! posted:teslas have self driven themselves under semi trucks decapitating their owners several times to be fair to elon Maybe... Teslas good?
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Mar 11, 2021 17:47
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Tulip posted:I'm reasonably sure there was a lot of handwringing about this back when RC cars were a more common hobby and RC cars - or RC copters - are much better suited to the task than adding the bot step, but we still haven't seen this be a big thing other than by the American government against Muslims. We actually have in syria and iraq
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Mar 11, 2021 18:28
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:I don’t really see the logic in “self driving cars exist but also robots won’t be able to kill people very effectively because they can’t do a lot” I'm talking about fully autonomous robots. Something that doesn't really exist. Even a self driving car needs supervision and correction from a human operator. Remote control robots are realistic and exist right now but that's not autonomous. I'm talking about robots that have total control over their own movements and can carry out their operations with no input from humans. A robot that can move around on its own, identify and attack targets on its own, and know how to get to places. That's what I mean when I say autonomous robot. That doesn't exist. Robots right now are comically incapable and need a human to babysit them. Even something as simple as a robot turret with a gun and a camera on it would likely gently caress up at its job of shooting brown people that get too close. It should be so drat easy but a robot isn't a human and has to have every tiny variable planned for or else it will just run out of ammo shooting at a shadow on the ground, or letting enemy combatants get through because they shined lights on it and it couldn't tell what it was looking at. The Skeleton King has issued a correction as of 18:59 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 18:44
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The Skeleton King posted:What I'm trying to say is that an autonomous robot killing machine is really unrealistic with current technology. You can get something like that but it won't be very good. the difference between our current drones launching missiles at an algorithmically determined target, using algorithmically defined targeting parameters, with algorithmically defined flight paths, but with humans copying and pasting the values between two computers and an autonomous robot killing machine is effectively meaningless
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Mar 11, 2021 18:53
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Trabisnikof posted:the difference between our current drones launching missiles at an algorithmically determined target, using algorithmically defined targeting parameters, with algorithmically defined flight paths, but with humans copying and pasting the values between two computers and an autonomous robot killing machine is effectively meaningless True enough I guess. But I don't know how good those algorithms are. If all the other algorithms we have are anything to go by, they will probably be really stupid. The Skeleton King has issued a correction as of 19:03 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 19:00
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The Skeleton King posted:True enough I guess. But I don't know how good those algorithms are. If all the other algorithms we have are anything to go by, they will probably be really stupid. oh agreed, but that's the state of our warfighting empire in general, driven by really really stupid systems
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Mar 11, 2021 19:07
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quote:You can probably make a bot that can sometimes maybe identify that there is a non-white person present and drive over to them and explode. If you're lucky it won't get confused by a shadow or a reflection and blow up in the wrong place. Hopefully it will also not be foiled by a closed door or a large rock in the way. I remember reading that this sort of thing happened with early anti air missiles; they would get confused by hot rocks, or the sun, because they looked for heat sources. They are much better now.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:12
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If ML language translation is anything to go by, it's going to be dumb dumb dumb dumb for years and then there will be a sudden jump up in capability if and when the money to drive that improvement bumps into incentives to actually make the systems performant.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:12
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Volmarias posted:I remember reading that this sort of thing happened with early anti air missiles; they would get confused by hot rocks, or the sun, because they looked for heat sources. https://youtu.be/bZe5J8SVCYQ
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Mar 11, 2021 19:15
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remember when DARPA gave a bunch of MIT researchers access to the real time location of every single vehicle and cell phone in Afganistan, named it after Blade Runner, and then they didn't do poo poo with it because they had no idea what they were doing lol https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/15/the-graveyard-of-empires-and-big-data/ quote:What Lee eventually formulated was a data-mining program based on the latest predictive analysis work being done in the commercial sector, but using military data from Afghanistan. “For example, we were trying to understand if the price of potatoes at local markets was correlated with subsequent Taliban activity, insurgent activity, in the same way that Amazon might want to know if certain kinds of click behaviors on Amazon.com would correlate to higher sales of clothing versus handbags versus computers,” Lee said. also lol at "beer for data trade (no locals)" brought to you by our friendly Synergy Strike Force ("civilian") quote:The only tiki bar in eastern Afghanistan had an unusual payment program. A sign inside read simply, “If you supply data, you will get beer.” The idea was that anyone — or any foreigner, because Afghans were not allowed — could upload data on a one-terabyte hard drive kept at the bar, located in the Taj Mahal Guest House in Jalalabad. In exchange, they would get free beer courtesy of the Synergy Strike Force, the informal name of the American civilians who ran the establishment.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:23
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Trabisnikof posted:the difference between our current drones launching missiles at an algorithmically determined target, using algorithmically defined targeting parameters, with algorithmically defined flight paths, but with humans copying and pasting the values between two computers and an autonomous robot killing machine is effectively meaningless This hits at the crux of the issue. Even if a fully autonomous Terminator-style robot existed that was better than any human, it would still be cheaper and quicker to just bomb or drone strike whatever you want dead.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:26
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Tulip posted:I'm reasonably sure there was a lot of handwringing about this back when RC cars were a more common hobby and RC cars - or RC copters - are much better suited to the task than adding the bot step, but we still haven't seen this be a big thing other than by the American government against Muslims. RC vehicles have been used in warfare for nearly a century the Red Army used a couple battalions of RC tanks in real combat in the Winter War, actually, mainly for attacking fortifications. it appears to have been regarded as a successful project, but was poorly suited for the conditions of the German invasion - Soviet industry was pushed to its limits and had the sense to abandon most experimental projects in favor of their immediate needs, and in any case the teletanks didn't have the speed or flexibility to keep up with the mobile warfare that dominated the Eastern Front the US occupation forces deployed thousands of radio-controlled or entirely automatic robots in Iraq. some are armed, but the US military has refrained from using them in combat anywhere a reporter might be able to access. apparently, by the time the armed versions were deployed to Iraq in 2007, the Army felt that the risk of bad press for defense industry was more important than the risk of troop casualties  the fundamental obstacle is that a full-on robotic war machine is more expensive and difficult to produce in bulk than human-piloted war machines while being far less able to react to battlefield conditions, so it's not well-suited for use against military powers of comparable level. instead, they're most useful in situations where the user has way more military power and manufacturing capacity than the foe but the political cost of casualties among their own troops is disproportionately high - in other words, occupations and anti-insurgency. the British used remote-controlled vehicles in Northern Ireland to reduce casualties to IRA bombs, and Israel uses autonomous drone cars to patrol the Gaza border  these vehicles are rarely designed as serious combat vehicles, but there's typically little need for them to be. instead, as specialized anti-insurgency vehicles, they're largely designed to trip traps, reveal ambushes, soak up explosives, and draw or drive insurgents out of their hiding spots or fortified positions so that conventional military superiority can more easily be brought to bear
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Mar 11, 2021 19:30
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quote:What Lee eventually formulated was a data-mining program based on the latest predictive analysis work being done in the commercial sector, but using military data from Afghanistan. “For example, we were trying to understand if the price of potatoes at local markets was correlated with subsequent Taliban activity, insurgent activity, in the same way that Amazon might want to know if certain kinds of click behaviors on Amazon.com would correlate to higher sales of clothing versus handbags versus computers,” Lee said. This is literally the same ML cargo cult poo poo you get in business. They have no loving idea what types of problems ML can actually solve and what it can't, they have no clue about experiment design methodology or even having a loving hypothesis at all before you start slamming All The Data into a giant fishing expedition that will pop out specious correlations a thousand times more often than it finds any really predictive signal. And then you get the Potato Pricing Modification Project because skynet said potato prices drive Taliban activity.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:43
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Main Paineframe posted:RC vehicles have been used in warfare for nearly a century (.....) also the issue with removing humans from the decision-making process means you're relying entirely on the machine's ability to differentiate friend/foe/noncombatant/shrub/dog/etc and there's no dilution of responsibility by having several trained technicians pushing different "Go Ahead" buttons despite the fact they have limited information. so then there would be the issue that indiscriminate weapons are inherently prohibited, and computers are not legally capable of making decisions, so who is at fault when the murdercopter sees a bird and glitches out resulting in its conclusion that it's time to carpetbomb a daycare?
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Mar 11, 2021 19:48
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This is satire of Spaceballs and you won't convince me otherwise.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:49
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Were V2 rockets RC or simply set/forget?
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Mar 11, 2021 19:50
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Cannon_Fodder posted:Were V2 rockets RC or simply set/forget? Set & Forget, hence the atrocious accuracy (which was fine when the whole point was to be a terror weapon)
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Mar 11, 2021 19:50
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Trabisnikof posted:remember when DARPA gave a bunch of MIT researchers access to the real time location of every single vehicle and cell phone in Afganistan, named it after Blade Runner, and then they didn't do poo poo with it because they had no idea what they were doing lol Lol that's pretty decent military program if all it did was waste money and buy people beer. Usually they just waste money. edit: ML is bullshit and anyone who thinks 'self driving cars' are a thing clearly doesn't understand how 'self driving cars' umm 'work'. I also want to point out that we use drones not because they are more accurate or safer or any of that poo poo, they just lower the threshold of action since it doesn't involve putting soldiers in harms way. This is likely antiquated thinking which the military will figure out soon enough as most US citizens don't give a poo poo whose getting blown up in foreign wars anymore, our own people included. pigz has issued a correction as of 20:06 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 20:00
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Volmarias posted:Set & Forget, hence the atrocious accuracy (which was fine when the whole point was to be a terror weapon) Sir, this is rocket-pilot erasure. Those brave capuchin monkey-nazis were trained for years to pilot those rockets. Their zeal for rocketry was only exceeded by their hate for the British.
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Mar 11, 2021 20:05
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Bloody Hedgehog posted:Sir, this is rocket-pilot erasure. Those brave capuchin monkey-nazis were trained for years to pilot those rockets. Their zeal for rocketry was only exceeded by their hate for the British. Can relate.
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Mar 11, 2021 20:06
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America tried gluing napalm bombs to bats with the goal of burning down Japanese cities, since bats like to nest in the eaves of houses. The plan was cancelled after a bunch of bats escaped and burned down an Army base. (The V2s were not flown by monkeys, but the Americans really did bat bombs, and I think it was the British who tried pigeon-guided missiles and chicken-powered nuclear bombs) Chamale has issued a correction as of 20:25 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 20:23
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Not a weapon, exactly. But the bat story reminds me of the good ol' CIA op Acoustic Kitty, where they surgically implanted a bunch of recording equipment in a cat and then it got hit by a car.
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Mar 11, 2021 20:28
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Less weapon-guidance and more just bio-weapon but the US mosquito-flu-bombed a few cities that one time, you know, just to test.
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Mar 11, 2021 20:41
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Chamale posted:America tried gluing napalm bombs to bats with the goal of burning down Japanese cities, since bats like to nest in the eaves of houses. The plan was cancelled after a bunch of bats escaped and burned down an Army base. please Project Pigeon was all-American baby
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Mar 11, 2021 20:45
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Chamale posted:America tried gluing napalm bombs to bats with the goal of burning down Japanese cities, since bats like to nest in the eaves of houses. The plan was cancelled after a bunch of bats escaped and burned down an Army base. soviets did anti-tank dogs but didn't train them well for combat so they frequently retreated back into soviet lines and killed soviet soldiers 
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Mar 11, 2021 20:51
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christmas boots posted:Not a weapon, exactly. But the bat story reminds me of the good ol' CIA op Acoustic Kitty, where they surgically implanted a bunch of recording equipment in a cat and then it got hit by a car. Sounds about right for a CIA op
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Mar 11, 2021 20:56
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Nothus posted:Sounds about right for a successful CIA op
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Mar 11, 2021 21:01
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Tulip posted:soviets did anti-tank dogs but didn't train them well for combat so they frequently retreated back into soviet lines and killed soviet soldiers If i'm remembering this right they trained them on Soviet tanks that used a different fuel than the German tanks so the dogs would end up IDing the Soviet tanks as the real threat.
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Mar 11, 2021 21:06
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The Oldest Man posted:This is literally the same ML cargo cult poo poo you get in business. They have no loving idea what types of problems ML can actually solve and what it can't, they have no clue about experiment design methodology or even having a loving hypothesis at all before you start slamming All The Data into a giant fishing expedition that will pop out specious correlations a thousand times more often than it finds any really predictive signal. Machine learning snake oil is built on the fundamentally stupid belief that domain specific knowledge isn't relevant to the application of statistical techniques. So yes, it is ubiquitous in the security state now, basically just recycling the same errors and biases over and over but it's better because a human isn't doing it.
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Mar 11, 2021 21:25
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