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Last Celebration posted:Doesn’t the final boss in the second game have an insane amount of health relative to just about anything else too? I guess they really liked that feature for some reason... YUP. The last boss prior to the final dungeon has 500-something HP. The final dungeon's encounters jump this significantly to where the head of the dark empire has 2500, and then the final boss itself has 4100, and then 9999 in final form. That last one is made even nastier by the fact that it's immobile and pinned to a wall, so of the four people you can bring into the fight, one will straight up be unable to attack it without magic.
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Mar 14, 2021 13:21
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 00:54 |
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I prefer when games have final bosses that are actually a challenge, but giving it a billion HP seems like a poor way to do that, Do they do anything particularity that makes them challenging besides that?
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Mar 14, 2021 13:25
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I vaguely remember the last boss experience in Twilight of the Spirits being like "where do I even start" so it definitely wasn't just HP. Which would maybe be fine if not for the aforementioned infernally long run up for a rematch.
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Mar 14, 2021 13:29
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My favorite FU final boss is SO2. Did you engage in this fun mechanic we told you about? Cool, now the final boss is stronger than most of the post-game super bosses. Good luck!
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Mar 14, 2021 13:33
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I do not believe that anyone in the history of the world has backtracked from the final save point (a prerequisite) to trigger that private action by accident before actually fighting the final boss
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Mar 14, 2021 13:38
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I didn't finish Fire Emblem: Shadows of Valentia because of some type of bullshit in the final dungeon but I don't remember if it was objectively bullshit or if I was just impatient to get to my next game
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Mar 14, 2021 13:42
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That brings up a good question, do you prefer a harder final boss that tests your knowledge of every mechanic and pushes you to the limit? Or one that's relatively easy, serving as a capstone for the game? I personally feel pretty disappointed when I walk all over a final boss. Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2 are prime examples, story is at absolute peak stakes, Theme song for both is loving bumping, and then the bosses are both cakewalks if you're covering every element. That said there's games without super challenging final bosses that feel pretty good, Jecht and Yu Yevon aren't super difficult but they feel pretty good, coming after the cinematic ally awesome SIN fight, and having the track change genre's really helps with that, as well as the Story significance. People poo poo on Necron, but I thought Kuja + Necron rode the difficulty level really well as well, probably helps that actually breaking IX requires doing dumb poo poo like stealing 9million times or catching frogs, neither of which I'm ever gonna do
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Mar 14, 2021 13:43
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Gaius Marius posted:That brings up a good question, do you prefer a harder final boss that tests your knowledge of every mechanic and pushes you to the limit? Or one that's relatively easy, serving as a capstone for the game? I definitely prefer hard ones. The risk is that some people quit at the final boss, but it’s fun when the final challenge is, well, the Final Challenge, especially if the narrative has been building them up as a big deal. It also avoids the whole “This ancient god of destruction is a piece of cake compared to that random dude in a cave” issue. SaGa games are actually pretty good about this, off the top of my head both Romancing SaGa (ps2) and Scarlet Grace have multiple versions of the final boss, with an easiest one that’s a good capstone to a casual playthrough, scaling up to a full power version (10 Fatestone Saruin, Firebringer Prime) that can kick the rear end of even a fully minmaxed team.
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Mar 14, 2021 13:53
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I don't expect or want final bosses in a 100-hour RPG to be hard. They should just feel epic, but there are a lot of other ways to accomplish this than suddenly cranking up the difficulty in a genre that's already infamous for overlong titles. Leave that to the optional bosses. If your game takes 20 hours to beat then sure, go hog wild.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:00
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I like harder end bosses because it means I'll actually kill it instead of seeing little point after loving around with the optional bosses + content. Like I did everything in FF13 except kill orphan bc I didnt see a point and didnt care about the story. I did everything in Last Remnant and killed True Conqueror bc he's a hard boss.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:00
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Tonfa posted:I do not believe that anyone in the history of the world has backtracked from the final save point (a prerequisite) to trigger that private action by accident before actually fighting the final boss That's to unlock the bonus dungeon. To make the final boss harder, you just have to see a PA in that one town that gets destroyed on disc 1 and then another in Central City.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:02
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Kild posted:I like harder end bosses because it means I'll actually kill it instead of seeing little point after loving around with the optional bosses + content. Like I did everything in FF13 except kill orphan bc I didnt see a point and didnt care about the story. I did everything in Last Remnant and killed True Conqueror bc he's a hard boss. As someone with a Save right before Sephiroth and Ultimecia I feel this. exquisite tea posted:I don't expect or want final bosses in a 100-hour RPG to be hard. They should just feel epic, but there are a lot of other ways to accomplish this than suddenly cranking up the difficulty in a genre that's already infamous for overlong titles. Leave that to the optional bosses. If your game takes 20 hours to beat then sure, go hog wild. Well all games should be challenging you all the way through, I think most just massively ail in balancing. It shouldn't feel like a ramp up, but rather the peak, a fight that brings you to the limit of your own skills and knowledge of the system, gained through hours of playtime
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Mar 14, 2021 14:07
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I think the risk of a 100+ hour RPG having a sudden difficulty spike at the end offers a greater risk (I never finish it) than it being too easy (I finish it and then post smugly about how I'm simply too good at video games).
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Mar 14, 2021 14:12
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Chaotic Flame posted:That's to unlock the bonus dungeon. To make the final boss harder, you just have to see a PA in that one town that gets destroyed on disc 1 and then another in Central City. That second PA is also save-gated. Kild posted:I like harder end bosses because it means I'll actually kill it instead of seeing little point after loving around with the optional bosses + content. Like I did everything in FF13 except kill orphan bc I didnt see a point and didnt care about the story. I did everything in Last Remnant and killed True Conqueror bc he's a hard boss. Wait how do you whether the final boss is hard enough to bother with without fighting it, do you just read internet rumors to figure out whether to do the endboss?  Gaius Marius posted:That brings up a good question, do you prefer a harder final boss that tests your knowledge of every mechanic and pushes you to the limit? Or one that's relatively easy, serving as a capstone for the game? The final encounter needs to be thematically appropriate and feel satisfying and cool to be cathartic. So it varies. Sometimes that is overcoming a wall. Sometimes that is a long cool sequence like the Jecht/Yu Yevon stuff. To give a negative example, Necron can challenge you but it's also so out of nowhere that it doesn't feel like a proper climax to the game that came before it, it's like something that crawled out of another videogame for no reason.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:21
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Gaius Marius posted:Well all games should be challenging you all the way through, I think most just massively ail in balancing. It shouldn't feel like a ramp up, but rather the peak, a fight that brings you to the limit of your own skills and knowledge of the system, gained through hours of playtime
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Mar 14, 2021 14:23
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whoever recommended Luxaren Allure here: thank you, just binged it and it was some good poo poo, even if the tide dungeons were slightly bullshit and Aurelie turned out to be an underwhelming party member. she was like a jack of all trades master of none thing who I felt wasn't really contributing to battles that much. it was an interesting experience to play it after playing Weird and Unfortunate Things Are Happening and see little details that would then go on to be carried over to Weird
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Mar 14, 2021 14:25
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Amppelix posted:no. the final boss of an RPG should not under any circumstance be a test of the limit of your skill and maximal use of the game's mechanics. i have no idea why you would want this. ????? ??????? Why wouldn't I want the World ending threat to feel like a world ending threat? Tonfa posted:
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Mar 14, 2021 14:30
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Tonfa posted:I do not believe that anyone in the history of the world has backtracked from the final save point (a prerequisite) to trigger that private action by accident before actually fighting the final boss Dumbass guild represent! That's happened to me. I went back from the final save point for the bonus dungeon and to clear up some missing private actions. Though to be fair I did fight the final boss a couple of times normally. Going back to do some bonus dungeon fighting was because I lost like a chump and got tired of reloading. 
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Mar 14, 2021 14:39
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Libluini posted:Dumbass guild represent! That's happened to me. I went back from the final save point for the bonus dungeon and to clear up some missing private actions. Hahaha, oof but that's a great story tho. The more I think about what makes a good final boss is that very often part of it is also the final dungeon being part of setting the mood. Some games can get away with the final dungeon being a boring or confusing piece of nothing if they REALLY stick the landing (FF10) but often it's a big factor. Ultimecia's castle is so loving cool by the time you're at the four part fight at the end it feels amazing rather than out of nowhere.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:46
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there's a lot of rpgs where there are two or more "final" bosses, one that's the gameplay wall and the other that defies the mechanics in some way to emphasize how insurmountable their threat is that's only defeated by your party cheating the mechanics themselves. giygas, nyx, yu yevon, etc.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:49
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Tonfa posted:That second PA is also save-gated. You're right and I'd forgotten that! Though I also recall many topics on like gamefaqs of people accidentally turning his limiter off and never fighting him with it on somehow.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:51
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CYBEReris posted:there's a lot of rpgs where there are two or more "final" bosses, one that's the gameplay wall and the other that defies the mechanics in some way to emphasize how insurmountable their threat is that's only defeated by your party cheating the mechanics themselves. giygas, nyx, yu yevon, etc. This was maybe the biggest fuckup in Chrono Cross Handled very well in Undertale tho
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Mar 14, 2021 14:51
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Libluini posted:Dumbass guild represent! That's happened to me. I went back from the final save point for the bonus dungeon and to clear up some missing private actions. I mean if you cleared Cave of Trials then the new super powered last boss isn't that much of a leap. That's how the progression should go anyways.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:54
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Gaius Marius posted:I prefer when games have final bosses that are actually a challenge, but giving it a billion HP seems like a poor way to do that, Do they do anything particularity that makes them challenging besides that? IIRC no, unless you count your patience as a second health bar in the fight.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:54
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Undertale final bosses: Asgore: makes you give up your #1 gameplay rule by FIGHTing even in a pacifist run Flowey: gameplay wall, plus the gimmick where he essentially takes over control of your EXE file was super cool and creepy Asriel: makes you use mechanics in a way you haven't done before; thematically invokes the power of friendship etc etc Sans: romhack-hard challenge, essentially a punishment fight but the game goes out of its way to ensure there's no way you can get to him by accident
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Mar 14, 2021 14:56
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Gaius Marius posted:????? i said it should never test you to your limits because you want to leave the player some very generous breathing room to how much they've figured out the mechanics and various ~optimal~ gameplay patterns. a game that requires you to *fully* optimise your poo poo before you can beat it is just inevitably going to end up being incredibly unfun to 99% of players.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:58
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Amppelix posted:did i say it shouldn't? Hmmm we're in agreement then, I never meant full agreement, only that it should feel so close as to be razor thin on the margin of victory
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Mar 14, 2021 15:00
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superbosses are a thing for something that pushes you to your absolute limit but doesn't gate you from seeing the end of the story
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Mar 14, 2021 15:11
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I kinda like when the final boss just cheats a little bit to make things feel artificially closer than they are Not obviously or anything, but the classic is attacks that do huge percentage damage followed by something that could actually kill you to force healing and stuff along those lines
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Mar 14, 2021 15:15
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It's definitely disappointing when you save up all your gamebreaking resources for the final boss, and then using them wipes it out in 2 minutes or something. I'd rather it be a little too hard than a lot too easy Yakuza 7 had its big omnipotent gameplay-wall bosses NEAR the end of the game, but then its actual final boss kept you busy by swarming you with constant adds but wasn't that tough by himself, which fit his character really well
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Mar 14, 2021 15:15
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Yeah often if the final boss doesn't at least appear to gently caress you up a little bit it's like yeah, alright I guess, we could have sent the town guard to deal with this chump
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Mar 14, 2021 15:18
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The actual final boss of Yakuza 7 is a dude who looks like the offspring of Wario and Clayton from Tarzan, who can kill you in one hit if not prepared.
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Mar 14, 2021 15:30
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Tonfa posted:Yeah often if the final boss doesn't at least appear to gently caress you up a little bit it's like yeah, alright I guess, we could have sent the town guard to deal with this chump Reminded me of my favorite speedrun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NeR-bT3uv0
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Mar 14, 2021 15:31
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Its a neat gimmick because it makes them seem appropriately badass and like hyping up their boxing matters, but also easy to neutralize so you feel smart for getting past it. It is a terrible bad gimmick because you can't save in the dungeon or change your gear/jobs once you enter the fight so get rekt do it all over again from the start if you need to change your loadout.
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Mar 14, 2021 15:32
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it kinda works in atelier because the entire conceit of the game series is mastering the alchemy systems to turn a frail girl into a nuclear power
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Mar 14, 2021 15:39
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Atelier* bosses rule because they absolutely will gently caress you up and it's your job to figure out how to gently caress them up harder *not applicable to the linear ones on the PS2
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Mar 14, 2021 15:44
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I feel like playing a collect many characters JRPG. Right now I'm considering Radiata Stories, Chrono Cross, Suikoden V, The Last Remnant. Any other options that I should be considering? The one I'm considering the most out of these is probably Chrono Cross, mostly because I never managed to get into it way back when. The rest I've gotten substantially far in but never beat. Don't feel like tactics games, two other games that came to mind (Valkyrie Profile and Suikoden 2) I've played a lot of already.
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Mar 14, 2021 16:27
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SaGa Frontier, maybe? It had a ton of recruitable characters. Most of the SaGa games do.
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Mar 14, 2021 16:49
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Amppelix posted:no. the final boss of an RPG should not under any circumstance be a test of the limit of your skill and maximal use of the game's mechanics. i have no idea why you would want this. The final boss of a game should be a challenge because it's...the final boss. The last test of whether or not you actually engaged with the games mechanics and mastered them. It's fun to overcome difficult things. Best RPG of All Time FF5 wouldn't be more fun if NED was easier.
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Mar 14, 2021 16:49
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I mean if you cleared Cave of Trials then the new super powered last boss isn't that much of a leap. That's how the progression should go anyways. I couldn't clear Cave of Trials either. My disc started crashing like mad at some point between boss 3 and boss 4 in the cave, so I gave up and went up to the normal final boss. Which, after definitely clearing up all private actions left, I now could beat even less! 
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Mar 14, 2021 17:19
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