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Or at the least, let it not be forgotten that there is a particular group of people who decided that it was sufficiently important to put him up as the candidate in the first place which is the reason why you're now having that discussion.
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Mar 16, 2021 14:27
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How are u posted:If someone's position is "Biden must be removed", an entirely reasonable position to hold, but they're unwilling to then engage in discussing 1) how we accomplish it and 2) the potential rammifications of both engaging in that process and then succeeding, then they're not engaging with the world as it is. the discussion for 4 years was just 'Trump must be removed' and nothing more
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Mar 16, 2021 14:54
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OwlFancier posted:Or at the least, let it not be forgotten that there is a particular group of people who decided that it was sufficiently important to put him up as the candidate in the first place which is the reason why you're now having that discussion. This was literally my point earlier before some morons tried to twist it. The primaries were probably one of the most disgusting time in this countries recent history. Primary voters who voted for Biden actively chose someone that (even if you excluded knowing about Tara Reade) had been harassing women and girls and making them uncomfortable openly for decades and it wasn't some loving secret. It had been on late night news as loving bit my entire life! I'm 33 years old and I dont remember a time when I didn't think Biden was a creep and i've been politically aware since I was a kid. And jesus christ the excuses people make. "Oh he's old" "oh he's just a very hands on politician" gently caress off with that poo poo. Caressing your coworkers or their children and smelling your coworkers hair or their childrens hair wasn't been acceptable in the work place in the last 20+ years. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 17:38
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To those asking how to remove Biden, the mechanism for removing a sitting president is to impeach them and convict them in the Senate. The verdict on presidential impeachment trails for Clinton and Trump broke down on party lines and I do not see that changing in the future. I do believe that if the Republicans gain control of the House in 22 you will see Biden impeached, though not convicted unless they also have the Senate. This will be done for purely political reasons, but would be an example of the right thing being done for the wrong reasons.
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Mar 16, 2021 19:49
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Was there ever an answer other than impeachment regarding how to remove Joe Biden from office on the grounds that he's a credibly accused rapist? He's certainly not going to resign over it.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:01
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The Oldest Man posted:Was there ever an answer other than impeachment regarding how to remove Joe Biden from office on the grounds that he's a credibly accused rapist? He's certainly not going to resign over it. As far as I can tell: 1) Impeach and Convict in the Senate, leading to removal. 2) Use the 25th amendment to remove via the Cabinet. 3) Public pressure and civil unrest to the point that resignation is forced.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:15
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Impeaching Biden would be the best shot for getting bipartisan support for something 
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Mar 17, 2021 00:32
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joepinetree posted:We don't have to discuss the Tara Reade case as a macro issue that is out there that we don't have any control over. We can discuss it through the prism of what happened in these here forums. Even the Intercept feels compelled to verify information about Reade's background and believes that it matters, it's not rape culture to attempt to verify who someone is for purposes of establishing credibility when they accuse the presidential nominee of a crime. Rape culture is when it is a given that you will be socially and professionally eviscerated for making an accusation against a man (even privately!), and when you live in a system that makes it almost impossible to keep accurate records of your most basic professional accomplishments or live a normal life because you're hiding from a man who can presumably walk around scot-free despite posing a threat. It's profoundly stupid that perception of the entire thing would hinge on whether someone received 35 credits or 36, but the puzzling development of Reade's representation dropping her at almost the same time and Republicans not touching it because their candidate is an admitted rapist is how it played out. Republicans could have held a hearing or five, but they don't give a poo poo about Reade. Reade's lawyer is doing now what should have been done in May 2020.
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Mar 17, 2021 02:06
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Even the Intercept feels compelled to verify information about Reade's background and believes that it matters, it's not rape culture to attempt to verify who someone is for purposes of establishing credibility when they accuse the presidential nominee of a crime. Sorry did you stop talking about what happened to Tara Reade in this second paragraph? I honestly can't tell. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1371976113329561601?s=20 Good to know Biden will believe women after the investigation proves they weren't lying, if it even can.
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Mar 17, 2021 03:25
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Good to know the nydems are ready to keep ignoring sexual harassment! https://twitter.com/jessemckinley/status/1371491122653102081?s=19
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Mar 17, 2021 09:34
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silicone thrills posted:Good to know the nydems are ready to keep ignoring sexual harassment! This stain cannot be separated from the Democratic Party on the whole. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Mar 17, 2021 |
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Mar 17, 2021 13:58
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Nucleic Acids posted:This stain cannot be separated from the Democratic Party on the whole. that's not necessarily much of a reflection on the national party, any more than if when I successfully replace all of Texas' DNC members with socialists that's not a "my work here is done, the Democratic Party is now socialist"
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Mar 17, 2021 14:27
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fart simpson posted:that's not necessarily much of a reflection on the national party, any more than if when I successfully replace all of Texas' DNC members with socialists that's not a "my work here is done, the Democratic Party is now socialist" how much of the national party supported Biden? The national party will, reluctantly, throw a state level predator to the wilderness as we've seen but as soon as it becomes an issue in their realm they say this exact same poo poo.
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Mar 17, 2021 14:35
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fart simpson posted:that's not necessarily much of a reflection on the national party, any more than if when I successfully replace all of Texas' DNC members with socialists that's not a "my work here is done, the Democratic Party is now socialist" Kinda funny since that basically happened with Nevada and the remaining centrists apparently are trying their hardest to scuttle the whole thing and start a No Homers club.
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Mar 17, 2021 14:40
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The Oldest Man posted:Sorry did you stop talking about what happened to Tara Reade in this second paragraph? I honestly can't tell. I guess my point is that until we're in a setting where sexual assault allegations against politicians in particular are not made decades after the fact, people are going to look into peoples' backgrounds in lieu of being able to demonstrate anything independent of that (such as a multitude of allegations coming out of the woodwork, an obvious paper trail, etc.). Not even this will solve people using this opportunity to ruthlessly harass victims into oblivion (doxxing them and making death threats and whatever else). Both Ford and Reade had their credibility attacked, but generally a larger % of people believed Ford for various reasons.
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Mar 17, 2021 17:00
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I guess my point is that until we're in a setting where sexual assault allegations against politicians in particular are not made decades after the fact, people are going to look into peoples' backgrounds in lieu of being able to demonstrate anything independent of that (such as a multitude of allegations coming out of the woodwork, an obvious paper trail, etc.). Not even this will solve people using this opportunity to ruthlessly harass victims into oblivion (doxxing them and making death threats and whatever else). Im pretty sure most of those reasons came down to - Party democrats backed Ford but didn't back Reade. Ford's abuser is a republican. Reade's abuser is a democrat.
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Mar 17, 2021 19:14
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I guess my point is that until we're in a setting where sexual assault allegations against politicians in particular are not made decades after the fact, people are going to look into peoples' backgrounds in lieu of being able to demonstrate anything independent of that (such as a multitude of allegations coming out of the woodwork, an obvious paper trail, etc.). Not even this will solve people using this opportunity to ruthlessly harass victims into oblivion (doxxing them and making death threats and whatever else). And I will go ahead and say that had to do with who was being accused and the social class of the accuser.
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Mar 17, 2021 19:33
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I guess my point is that until we're in a setting where sexual assault allegations against politicians in particular are not made decades after the fact I'll stop you right there. This is never going to not be the case, if only for the obvious reason that many abusers don't become public figures until decades after the fact and we should respect any woman's choice not to compound the trauma of an assault or rape by making a public accusation at that time. The fact that years later when their attacker stands for public office - and the power over others that comes with it - might be when a victim's mental calculus changes from silence to speaking up is not always going to be resolved with a more supportive anti-rape culture, because the damage an abuser can do as a private citizen often pales in comparison to what they can do as a public official. They should be believed and supported either way, and and the fact that Ford was believed specifically by democrats and Reade was not believed specifically by democrats boils down to cultural affinity, class, and political party of the accused and accuser, not the "credibility" of each accusation.
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Mar 17, 2021 21:20
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silicone thrills posted:Im pretty sure most of those reasons came down to - Party democrats backed Ford but didn't back Reade. Ford's abuser is a republican. Reade's abuser is a democrat. The DSA has done more to support Reade than Republicans have. Ford had full Democrat backing. Generally because Ford was given the opportunity to speak she has more public support. This didn't stop harassment or Kavanaugh, though. Nucleic Acids posted:And I will go ahead and say that had to do with who was being accused and the social class of the accuser. I agree also. The Oldest Man posted:I'll stop you right there. This is never going to not be the case, if only for the obvious reason that many abusers don't become public figures until decades after the fact and we should respect any woman's choice not to compound the trauma of an assault or rape by making a public accusation at that time. The fact that years later when their attacker stands for public office - and the power over others that comes with it - might be when a victim's mental calculus changes from silence to speaking up is not always going to be resolved with a more supportive anti-rape culture, because the damage an abuser can do as a private citizen often pales in comparison to what they can do as a public official. They should be believed and supported either way, and and the fact that Ford was believed specifically by democrats and Reade was not believed specifically by democrats boils down to cultural affinity, class, and political party of the accused and accuser, not the "credibility" of each accusation. Point taken. For what it's worth I don't see any reason to doubt Reade's account and the situation is more clear to me than when this thread began.
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Mar 18, 2021 05:25
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The DSA has done more to support Reade than Republicans have. Ford had full Democrat backing. Generally because Ford was given the opportunity to speak she has more public support. This didn't stop harassment or Kavanaugh, though. I wouldn't really consider the DSA to be "the democrats" poo poo that's why I initially joined them as an alternative. Obviously now some chapters have floated have floated closer to the democratic party but they're still separate.
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Mar 18, 2021 06:25
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silicone thrills posted:I wouldn't really consider the DSA to be "the democrats" poo poo that's why I initially joined them as an alternative. Obviously now some chapters have floated have floated closer to the democratic party but they're still separate. That was not meant to say DSA is Democrats, although there are self-identifying democratic socialists among Democrats (and some Democrats who hate them). Name Change fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 13:19
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The DSA's whole deal is to be a parallel support structure rather than an actual party, given it's a lot easier to run as a Democrat than it is to get any meaningful support from the party apparatus as a leftist. The US system is set up to make third parties not anywhere near worth the effort. Especially since the party has much less ability to actually control its representatives compared to say, the UK system.
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Mar 18, 2021 13:29
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Even the Intercept feels compelled to verify information about Reade's background and believes that it matters, it's not rape culture to attempt to verify who someone is for purposes of establishing credibility when they accuse the presidential nominee of a crime. I don't know why you claim "even the intercept" as if the intercept is some gold standard that makes something ok. But even if the intercept was investigating stuff, it doesn't change the fact that no one here was "investigating" anything, and yet were comfortable making definitive statements over something that even at its very worst case scenario still didn't matter.
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Mar 18, 2021 15:17
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joepinetree posted:I don't know why you claim "even the intercept" as if the intercept is some gold standard that makes something ok. But even if the intercept was investigating stuff, it doesn't change the fact that no one here was "investigating" anything, and yet were comfortable making definitive statements over something that even at its very worst case scenario still didn't matter. The NYT reported that she lied (not just "was mistaken" or "we could not verify"). This initiated law enforcement and lawyers looking into whether she committed perjury during sex crimes trials, which is an extraordinary wrinkle to making these kinds of accusations. The Intercept's reporting is why we know more about it than that (and even then not everything is clear).
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Mar 18, 2021 18:55
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The NYT reported that she lied (not just "was mistaken" or "we could not verify"). This initiated law enforcement and lawyers looking into whether she committed perjury during sex crimes trials, which is an extraordinary wrinkle to making these kinds of accusations. The point is that even if she had lied it would still not have mattered. And the "not everything is clear" is super weaselly.
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Mar 18, 2021 19:01
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The NYT reported that she lied (not just "was mistaken" or "we could not verify"). This initiated law enforcement and lawyers looking into whether she committed perjury during sex crimes trials, which is an extraordinary wrinkle to making these kinds of accusations. and then what happened
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Mar 18, 2021 19:11
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Even the Intercept feels compelled to verify information about Reade's background and believes that it matters, it's not rape culture to attempt to verify who someone is for purposes of establishing credibility when they accuse the presidential nominee of a crime. "Pointing to other random life stuff to establish 'credibility' in the context of a rape accusation" is in fact completely ridiculous. It was always just people looking for an excuse to dismiss inconvenient accusations, both in broader media/society and on these forums. The only sort of "credibility" that could possibly be relevant is if someone specifically had a history of lying about being raped/assaulted. These arguments (about stuff like the supposed "perjury") only came up because people wanted a justification for ignoring the accusations, and, as always, the victim ended up paying the price. Also, have you considered that possibly "people will comb through my entire life looking for reasons to question my 'credibility'" might be a strong incentive against accusing powerful people?
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Mar 18, 2021 19:39
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joepinetree posted:The point is that even if she had lied it would still not have mattered. In public opinion it matters, in pursuing charges or damages it inevitably matters. You can't make it not matter just because it's distasteful. quote:And the "not everything is clear" is super weaselly. Re-read the Intercept article if you like, which makes this exact determination simply because they can't verify everything in terms of paper trails and all that poo poo, because one of the officials involved is dead and so on. Ytlaya posted:"Pointing to other random life stuff to establish 'credibility' in the context of a rape accusation" is in fact completely ridiculous. It was always just people looking for an excuse to dismiss inconvenient accusations, both in broader media/society and on these forums. Actually we find that when a person's reputation is deemed credible their claims are deemed more credible, and more people go to bat for you in other areas. This is why Reade's lawyer is bothering to work on correcting the record. sexpig by night posted:and then what happened NYT gonna NYT, which people here generally know, but their audience is generally credulous.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:28
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Sodomy Hussein posted:In public opinion it matters, in pursuing charges or damages it inevitably matters. You can't make it not matter just because it's distasteful. Yes, rape culture is rampant. It is, however, pretty gross to defend the perpetuation of rape culture this way.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:31
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joepinetree posted:Yes, rape culture is rampant. It is, however, pretty gross to defend the perpetuation of rape culture this way. Again, investigating who a person is, is not rape culture. Writing a hit piece that ignores your own paper's journalistic standards, because going into a domestic violence shelter unpersoned who you are looking into, is.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:40
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Again, investigating who a person is, is not rape culture. Writing a hit piece that ignores your own paper's journalistic standards, because going into a domestic violence shelter unpersoned who you are looking into, is. Again, my point is that whether or not she had lied about her BA should never have mattered. People in these very forums thought it did and assumed that she had even when the simpler explanation was that she was a victim of domestic abuse who didn't pay too much attention to paperwork. But it didn't and shouldn't, and to argue that people here were correct to think that it mattered because the NY Times thought it did is to perpetuate the rape culture. Trying to offload the incredibly gross stuff that has been said in this forum on the NY Times is moral cowardice.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:47
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thinking about how the media hyperfocused on the "credibility" of tara reade and not notorious liar joe biden mired in many harassment allegations and whom was the butt of snl and daily show groping jokes based on his "tactile" c-span footage
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Mar 18, 2021 20:59
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comedyblissoption posted:thinking about how the media hyperfocused on the "credibility" of tara reade and not notorious liar joe biden mired in many harassment allegations and whom was the butt of snl and daily show groping jokes based on his "tactile" c-span footage Joe Biden: Literally still lies about how his first wife died and famously had his only other even remotely non-joke presidential campaign ruined by a plagiarism scandal, also has a history of abusing women's consent and all. Tara Reade: Her landlord didn't like her. I'm sure our free press treated these people with appropriate respect based on this and nothing else!
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Mar 18, 2021 21:06
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joepinetree posted:Again, my point is that whether or not she had lied about her BA should never have mattered. People in these very forums thought it did and assumed that she had even when the simpler explanation was that she was a victim of domestic abuse who didn't pay too much attention to paperwork. But it didn't and shouldn't, and to argue that people here were correct to think that it mattered because the NY Times thought it did is to perpetuate the rape culture. You should probably take that up with them instead of resorting to calling me a coward for engaging with you. comedyblissoption posted:thinking about how the media hyperfocused on the "credibility" of tara reade and not notorious liar joe biden mired in many harassment allegations and whom was the butt of snl and daily show groping jokes based on his "tactile" c-span footage thinking about how this didn't work out for Cuomo, Kavanaugh, etc.
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Mar 18, 2021 21:10
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Credential fraud is good and anyone who judges a person negatively on it has a favorite billionaire with honorary degrees. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 18, 2021 21:11
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Sodomy Hussein posted:You should probably take that up with them instead of resorting to calling me a coward for engaging with you. You took time out of your life to write posts supporting them, you personally made yourself their rep on forums.somethingawful.com and don’t get to duck out of someone pressing you on their decisions. The only other way this post makes sense is if you think you were like explaining to joepinetree what the intercept was doing because he just didn’t get it, which I doubt was the case You are doing the exact thing he’s calling out, by sticking your rear end out for their lovely invasive reporting misadventurous fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 22:51
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misadventurous posted:You took time out of your life to write posts supporting them, you personally made yourself their rep on forums.somethingawful.com and don’t get to duck out of someone pressing you on their decisions. The only other way this post makes sense is if you think you were like explaining to joepinetree what the intercept was doing because he just didn’t get it, which I doubt was the case I'm not responsible for what other posters say in U.S. Pol or anywhere else. I've been clear from the beginning that the NYT helped create a narrative, not that I endorsed it or agreed with how it was done, and tried to discuss things in detail. Even when I couldn't explain to myself what was going on with Reade's background, the NYT piece in particular (and IIRC a similar Politico one) was obviously a hit piece full of stuff that wouldn't get printed without "Tara Reade lied about her academics" as the lede. If there's a big anti-Tara Reade culture on D&D then people should probably address and engage that, instead of just trying to zone off threads because they are "unwelcome" in D&D or whatever. This thread has often frozen people out with self-righteous screeds about how people who don't see the situation the same way as they do are disgusting and beneath engaging with. At the end of the day it's simply more complicated than that and everyone here knows it.
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Mar 18, 2021 23:22
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Sodomy Hussein posted:
Im not sure what that's supposed to mean. Both of these people are still in office and are in zero danger of not being in office. It's clear that rape culture and disrespect of women is rampant in both parties and there's literally zero effort to punish it or even treat it as serious. Al Franken was an anomaly since he actually just was decent enough to resign. Anyone who is a bigger poo poo head like Biden and Cuomo and Kavanaugh certainly wont.
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Mar 18, 2021 23:34
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I'm not responsible for what other posters say in U.S. Pol or anywhere else. I've been clear from the beginning that the NYT helped create a narrative, not that I endorsed it or agreed with how it was done, and tried to discuss things in detail. Even when I couldn't explain to myself what was going on with Reade's background, the NYT piece in particular (and IIRC a similar Politico one) was obviously a hit piece full of stuff that wouldn't get printed without "Tara Reade lied about her academics" as the lede. Who the gently caress said anything about unwelcome or whatever? Or are you trying to police which forums i post in? My post was very simple: the discussion of Tara Reade's academic background was and is a glaring example of rape culture. One that we can't just pretend is "out there," or to try to farm out the responsibility for that culture on the media. I didn't call you a coward. I said that trying to blame the NY Times for the way Reade was treated is cowardly. I stand by every line in both the original post you replied to and every single reply since. There was never a reckoning for how people smeared a victim of domestic abuse for how she handled that domestic abuse (referring to the degree "controversy") which was gross by itself, even before we get into the part of using that to evaluate sexual assault allegations.
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Mar 19, 2021 00:38
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Sodomy Hussein posted:If there's a big anti-Tara Reade culture on D&D then people should probably address and engage that, instead of just trying to zone off threads because they are "unwelcome" in D&D or whatever. This thread has often frozen people out with self-righteous screeds about how people who don't see the situation the same way as they do are disgusting and beneath engaging with. At the end of the day it's simply more complicated than that and everyone here knows it. How the hell is it more complicated...? The problem at this point is that anyone who doesn't believe Tara Reade at this point simply doesn't want to, and you can't argue someone out of something like that. The NYT poo poo, all her transcript stuff, it was all obviously an irrelevant smokescreen from the start and anyone who gave it the time of day was looking for a way to discount her without having to do anything as damaging to their self-image as directly call her liar.
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Mar 19, 2021 00:39
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