|
stellers bae posted:I followed up with the property management company and they instantly responded telling me they wished me the best. This is a bummer, not because I wanted this job, but because I don't know how hard to push when I next negotiate. I usually push like a feather, this time I pushed with a sledgehammer, and failed. How do you find the middle? Experience? You've gotta crush this instinct. If you'd have felt better about getting an offer that you'd have rejected, that is, in no uncertain terms, a negotiating weakness that can be exploited. Whether they extended a weak offer or no offer the outcome should be the same - you don't take that job. It'll get easier the more you do it, but if you take it personally you will have a tough time consistently negotiating effectively because you'll be working against your interest (your $ target) to extract an offer for your own self-esteem. Nobody can tell you generally how to finesse a negotiation because each place you're applying to likely has different policies, revenues, talent, and desperation. It should be less "how firm should I be next time to get an offer" and more about identifying whether the potential employer is capable of and willing to give you what you want. You successfully discerned that this company not willing to give you what you want, so file it away and move on. If you think you could have done a better job of selling yourself to extract a higher offer, by all means, work those interviewing chops, but don't worry about "negotiating too hard" because any company that pulls an offer over a simple ask when it comes time to set terms is not going to be a good one to work for.
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2021 17:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 12:16 |
|
|
spwrozek posted:It just seems like you are hard core seeking validation. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:yeah OP needs to figure out a better way of getting validation For real. stellers bae posted:I followed up with the property management company and they instantly responded telling me they wished me the best. This is a bummer, not because I wanted this job, but because I don't know how hard to push when I next negotiate. I usually push like a feather, this time I pushed with a sledgehammer, and failed. How do you find the middle? Experience? I don't want to be rude but  dude, it could not be more obvious that company is shady as hell and only interested in filling the role as cheaply as possible. You're bizarrely hung up on this like it's a personal rejection. It's a GOOD THING when you know what you're worth. YOU TOLD THEM to pound sand because they're loving cheapskates, and you're emotionally reacting as though it were the other way around. Get some perspective, man. (IMO you didn't push hard enough, I would not have taken that job for what you were willing to accept it for.)OK, all of that was harshly worded and I don't want that to detract from this very serious advice: if you don't already have a therapist, find one and talk to them about this. Your need-for-validation issues are going to seriously hold you back in life. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 12, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
Good point. I do have a Lyra benefit with my current workplace, so maybe a Zoom convo with a therapist isn't a bad idea...
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
What if I do say a number, but that number is a bit of a lie, but a lie I can sort of justify if they somehow found out enough to call me on it?
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2021 14:41
|
|
|
Don't lie if there's even the smallest chance you might be found out. It's just super -EV. You can and should inflate your asking price if forced to give one. If by "say a number" you mean share your current salary, never do that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2021 14:47
|
|
|
Gort posted:What if I do say a number, but that number is a bit of a lie, but a lie I can sort of justify if they somehow found out enough to call me on it? First: what you made before has no bearing on the job you're talking about now. That is a framing employers use to anchor you right off the bat. Second. Dangerous ground because if you're found out you're screwed and it can be a small world. You also just don't need to lie, it's a weaker play. Third. You (probably) do not know what the market rate really is for the job. Even if you have a good idea for jobs like that one, you don't know their specific situation. To give a fake example. Maybe the market for gravediggers is 40k but these people have bodies piling up and they'd pay 55k. You think you're smart, looked at glassdoor and say "I'll dig all day for 45". Congrats you made over market but left 10 grand on the table. E: second point was wrong. Oops fixed now Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 16, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2021 14:55
|
|
|
I would like to thank the thread for giving me the confidence to negotiate. I recently got a job offer from a firm that does interesting work and seems to have a good team, including one person I've worked with before and really like, who recommended me. However, the initial offer they gave was less than I'm currently earning. I put in a high ask and they pushed back pretty hard, but ultimately ended up with more than I'm currently earning in base comp, but based on 30 hours (their default full-time amount) instead of 40, so I can bump that up quite a bit if I choose to work more hours. They also do bonuses, which my current job does not, so overall I think it'll be a decent step up in pay and a much better environment with more potential for advancement (also not much of a possibility in my current job). All my previous job hunts happened during periods of unemployment, so I had no BATNA and took what I was offered, and it was nice this time to feel like I could ask for more and not be screwed if they decided to take their ball and go home.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2021 17:09
|
|
|
Just got an offer today for a position that would need a relo. They offered up to 3k for the relocation (1 house hunting trip, packing/transport expenses) and a few grand under the top of their posted range, which is high for the posted position but probably average for a senior level which it seems that's more the type of work I would be taking on. If I'm aiming for 85k, would accept anything north of 80k, and their offer at 76k (which is close to my current salary) do I counter with 87k? He also said to call if anything needs to be discussed and the experience discrepancy will likely lead to me getting absolutely smoked in negotiations, but I'm not sure how much of a faux pas it would be to email instead. Happy for any advice here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 00:46
|
|
|
Assuming you're in the states $3k is really low for a relocation which doesn't bode well for the rest of how that company is run. If he asked you to call to discuss things though you should call. It's sounding like you may need to walk from this one though
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 01:12
|
|
|
Parallelwoody posted:Just got an offer today for a position that would need a relo. They offered up to 3k for the relocation (1 house hunting trip, packing/transport expenses) and a few grand under the top of their posted range, which is high for the posted position but probably average for a senior level which it seems that's more the type of work I would be taking on. If I'm aiming for 85k, would accept anything north of 80k, and their offer at 76k (which is close to my current salary) do I counter with 87k? He also said to call if anything needs to be discussed and the experience discrepancy will likely lead to me getting absolutely smoked in negotiations, but I'm not sure how much of a faux pas it would be to email instead. Happy for any advice here. If they said call, then I'd probably feel a bit of an obligation. Email is easier, but you should get the practice in, because all of this doesn't sound worth it. Low relocation for minimal increase?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 01:15
|
|
|
The work itself would be a pretty big resume boost. Low relocation is likely due to it being a non profit but either way I see your point (I'm not really sure what I would spend it on anyway as I don't think you can typically use that towards a down payment on a home, correct me if I'm wrong). Makes sense to call though, worst case is I walk away and I'm still employed so not a bad batna.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 01:24
|
|
|
Don't work for a nonprofit if at all possible. Just ask for $90K salary + $7K relo and let them walk away.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 01:26
|
|
|
Don't know if it matters but it's a non profit healthcare system, so it's not like they can pull cheaping out. He did a brief overview of the finances and has offhandedly mentioned they have plenty of budget for things.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 01:35
|
|
|
Yeah that's different, healthcare conglomerates claim to be "nonprofit" but that's the biggest joke in the world.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 01:53
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 02:24
|
|
|
Kick him in the face, got it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 03:21
|
|
|
spwrozek posted:Kick him in the face, got it. Anchor high!
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 03:27
|
|
|
My response to every employer putting "ninja" in the job description.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2021 06:30
|
|
|
or rockstar
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 04:58
|
|
|
moana posted:My response to every employer putting "ninja" in the job description. Ninja is a title that must be earned
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 06:18
|
|
|
I'm just starting out on the applying/interviewing market again after 6 years at my current gig and goddamn everywhere that involves a form requires current and/or desired salary these days. I've been putting throwaway replies like 'renegotiating' for current but feel like this is getting me sifted out by workday/hr before anyone who understands my computer touching even gets to look at my CV Even LinkedIn recruiters seem to ghost when I reply 'Yes looking for an interesting position and once I find it am happy to discuss the remuneration package' rather than desperately spit number at first ask I'm very comfortable at my current place (looking before I hate it too much) and will know tomorrow what my raise is going to be which if good enough might terminate this whole process because jfc I hate job hunting
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 09:02
|
|
|
Doccykins posted:I'm just starting out on the applying/interviewing market again after 6 years at my current gig and goddamn everywhere that involves a form requires current and/or desired salary these days. I've been putting throwaway replies like 'renegotiating' for current but feel like this is getting me sifted out by workday/hr before anyone who understands my computer touching even gets to look at my CV Recruiters are known to use LinkedIn as a platform to fish for salary information for their own use. I would assume that any posting that ghosted like that is just some rear end in a top hat recruiter fishing for information. Nothing of value is lost there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 12:24
|
|
|
Any pointers in negotiation for lateral internal transfers in big companies? I'm interviewing for a role that's a bit of a career change, and I know for a fact it's one rank down from my current salary. Different boss, same team.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 18:26
|
|
|
MJP posted:Any pointers in negotiation for lateral internal transfers in big companies? I'm interviewing for a role that's a bit of a career change, and I know for a fact it's one rank down from my current salary. Different boss, same team. I only know one big company, but there was basically zero ability to negotiate, even for promotions. You got what the schedule said you got and that's it. Granted, that's only one company, and your company's culture may be different, but I think the thread consensus is that internal negotiations are difficult, if not impossible, to pull off.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 18:35
|
|
|
Anecdotally, my experience trying to negotiate promos and track changes internally has been largely fruitless. That seems to be most peoples' experience, as well. The asymmetry is just too large and your employer holds all the cards. Not to say it's not worth trying, but good luck. It's dumb as hell that you have to change companies to get the real big raises, but it's the world we live in.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 18:37
|
|
|
Take the transfer get the skills and job hunt in one to two years.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 18:40
|
|
|
The only negotiation is to see if they will let you keep your higher grade salary. I would pitch it as a rotational learning position to try to keep your salary.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 18:43
|
|
|
Don't go down from your current salary. Definitely play up how your current experience in the company and non traditional background gives you a fresh synergetic perspective that will counteract silo thinking or whatever. Cross company networking is not nothing either. Also you will still be somewhat available to help your replacement.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
Guinness posted:Anecdotally, my experience trying to negotiate promos and track changes internally has been largely fruitless. That seems to be most peoples' experience, as well. The asymmetry is just too large and your employer holds all the cards. So we posted a job and had a lot of good internal applicants. The winning guy was under a different manager but same director as my group. He had also been promoted just last year. Dude is a rising star. My company is(was*) very high on all the best culture, place to work lists. They have historically been very generous with raises, promotions and stock. The guiding principle was "of course you should do better with us than out in the market". I go to the director, explain the situation, show him the interview data. Director says "cool, this dude won straight up, that's capitalism. I bless this". So I go to HR. They raise this big stink about how he was already promoted, internal transfers blah blah. We get them to give in, gave up a little bit on the comp but we got it done. *We've just merged and this HR team is from the other org. I think if we tried this next year they'd have the power to say no full stop. Goodbye culture :\ So, there's 2 good bosses (if I can label us that) who barely got the company to make the not-stupid choice regarding an internal transfer. It's also a micro-version of the whole "capitalism but only when we win" thing people are raging about.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 19:00
|
|
|
gently caress, it looks like I have an offer incoming. The max they were going to go with, $115k, which is over $20k more than I make now. Working to see if I can get a third week of vacation out of it but that isn't a dealbreaker. I'm going to miss my seniority and knowing what I'm doing and stuff. I'm going to miss the people I work with. Just Friday my boss said long-term he'd like to see me as the head of our R/D lab and our testing facility, but that's not promised and several years out most likely. It sounds really interesting though... am I making the right choice?
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 15:44
|
|
|
Change is scary man. I spent 17 years at the same company because it was comfortable, and I was comfortable. Finally got the courage to take a new job and it was 1000% the right move. I left for better benefits and 24K more a year, and have 0 regrets. It's hard to say goodbye to people I've worked with for pretty much my entire adult life, but there's social media and other ways to stay in touch. Old job promised upgraded titles, and salary adjustments, but those kept getting pushed back, and I decided it was time to leave. Found out the raise and title adjustments my old team mates were supposed to get were pushed back another 6 months after I left. If you have a good feeling about the new job, go for it. I left for a really great working environment, one of those "Top 50" places to work every year joints. More cash, better benefits, same PTO, there was no way I could say no. I'm also finally feeling challenged again. I was coasting the last 5 years, and it's really unfulfilling to be honest. I say go for it if it's a solid company you won't regret working for. Don't chase cash going to a toxic company though. A change of scenery can be good, and if your old company wants you back bad enough that's something that can always happen down the line.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:00
|
|
|
20k/17% is a lot to be underpaid by. A 20k/21% raise is very good.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:08
|
|
|
CornHolio posted:I'm going to miss my seniority and knowing what I'm doing and stuff. I'm going to miss the people I work with. Just Friday my boss said long-term he'd like to see me as the head of our R/D lab and our testing facility, but that's not promised and several years out most likely. It sounds really interesting though... am I making the right choice? lol, this is just empty poo poo managers say to try to persuade underpaid employees not to leave. Not nearly enough info for us to know if you're making the right choice, but assuming no major differences in expected hours, commute, etc., hell yes an extra twenty thousand dollars per year is a Good Thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:09
|
|
|
CornHolio posted:gently caress, it looks like I have an offer incoming. The max they were going to go with, $115k, which is over $20k more than I make now. Working to see if I can get a third week of vacation out of it but that isn't a dealbreaker. your current company has incompetent management, why would you a) think that anything they promised was valuable or b) that it would be at all rewarding or good to be head of the R/D lab for a company run by morons? you have no idea if you are making the right choice, all you can do is make a good choice, and it's pretty clear that the good choice is to not continue to get underpaid based on empty promises from incompetent/malicious losers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:hell yes an extra twenty thousand dollars per year is a Good Thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:19
|
|
|
CornHolio posted:Just Friday my boss said long-term he'd like to see me as the head of our R/D lab and our testing facility, but that's not promised and several years out most likely. It sounds really interesting though... am I making the right choice?
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:19
|
|
|
Dik Hz posted:Tell him that taking the job outside the organization shouldn't dissuade him from offering you that role when the time is right, and in a lot of ways working outside the organization will make you a more attractive candidate. A lot of people do have a history of leaving and coming back a year or more later, seniority intact. Which tells me that a) that's a viable option if I don't enjoy what I'm doing, and b) the grass isn't always greener.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:24
|
|
|
Dik Hz posted:Tell him that taking the job outside the organization shouldn't dissuade him from offering you that role when the time is right, and in a lot of ways working outside the organization will make you a more attractive candidate. this is very good
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:26
|
|
|
Alright so I pretty well broke most of the rules :facepalm: but I was doing it to demonstrate I am working two jobs and so not just on a single salary, effectively. This company contacted me and have been pretty aggressive, but have only topped my single full time job by 10k. I’ll have to talk to them on that piece. My bigger question is: they included language for non-compete in the same space (understandable) but also language that I am only allowed to work for them during business hours. Is this fairly standard stuff or is that a jab at me working two jobs? It struck me as rather odd, and if they’re going to take that sort of approach I’m getting bad vibes really quickly. I don’t know that I would continue my second job (or have time), but that really sticks out to me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 12:16 |
|
|
CornHolio posted:A lot of people do have a history of leaving and coming back a year or more later, seniority intact. Which tells me that a) that's a viable option if I don't enjoy what I'm doing, and b) the grass isn't always greener.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 16:45
|
|