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Hellioning posted:What 'Japan' thinks isn't really relevant. Yes, thank you. This is the argument I should have made from the beginning.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:13
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I think the tone and themes of P5R makes the fact that there are basically no gay characters really conspicuous. You’re playing a game where you slowly gather a bunch of young people who feel outcast by society, who feel they have nowhere to fit in, who feel like they’ve been rejected by their peers and/or families, set in the modern day in one of the biggest cities in the world, and you are telling me that none of them are queer? That none of their classmates are queer? That none of the people who have fallen prey to the abusers and lovely adults in society who you take it upon yourself to save are queer? It’s insane to me. The MC not being able to date Akechi and Yusuke is dumb in a game where you can start affairs with 4 fully grown women as a 16 year old is dumb but honestly the fact that the game is set in a Tokyo where every single teenager is straight is way more concerning because it feels like erasure. It’s possible that there’s some incidental dialog that I’ve missed up to the point I’m at in the game but it just seems wild to me that a game with this setting, these themes, these characters, and fairly open admission that teenagers are lonely and horny and want to be in relationships, that every single person is straight. It’s not perfect by any means but FE3H is set in a medieval church school like 1000 years ago and my female MC was able to marry a lady at the end. I don’t think lesbians exist in P5 at all. Even in P5R’s English translation, which I’ve gathered is the least blatantly offensive scenario, there are exactly 3 gay characters, all of who are fully grown adults and 2/3 of whom are still lovely and kidnap Ryuji multiple times to make him do drag even if they’re no longer rendered as full predators.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:35
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Oh I definitely agree it's a glaring omission in P5 considering its themes. I just think it's a P5 problem, not necessarily a Japan problem. Apologies, I didn't want to dogpile on Solaris. I just had one too many conversations with chuds who claimed that LGBTQ representation in Japanese media would be forcing Western sensibilities on the Japanese, as if Japanese culture is a sacred cow to be protected from the evils of political correctness, and it makes me jumpy to point out that's just not true and LGBTQ representation in Japanese media isn't "anti-Japanese" for whatever reason. Not that Solaris was doing that by any means, just explaining why I feel it's important to remind people that the Japanese population at large isn't uniquely conservative compared to the West and why LGBT representation shouldn't be considered to be groundbreaking any more in my animes and JRPGs.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:46
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Deltasquid posted:Oh I definitely agree it's a glaring omission in P5 considering its themes. I just think it's a P5 problem, not necessarily a Japan problem. You're good. I wasn't expressing myself very well with my posting and I should have left out the broad statements regarding Japanese culture being conservative. I tend to follow Japanese politics which, like American politics, is not reflective of the society as a whole but it can cause certain stereotypes to form. Given what is going on in the US, I should have been a bit more careful with my statements. Part of the reason that P5 appeals to me is at its core, its about the youth of society rebelling against corrupt and lovely political and other adult authority figures. Which yea, going back to the point, would have been great if you had some actual LGBTQ teammates to join that fight with.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:56
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Spent almost 5 hours of gameplay in Kamoshida's castle and just got to the throne room for the first time. This is a shockingly complex dungeon for being the first one in the game, especially in comparison to Yukiko's castle in P4.
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Mar 17, 2021 23:42
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anakha posted:Spent almost 5 hours of gameplay in Kamoshida's castle and just got to the throne room for the first time. Having actually hand-designed dungeons in P5 is such a great addition after the random hallways of P3 and P4. They vary in overall interest and complexity but they all have at least something interesting going on, and the ones that used to suck got polished up a lot in Royal.
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Mar 17, 2021 23:45
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Catsplosion posted:Being 'bi' is such a simple way of telling what is a more complex character. It's funny because in trying to break down these walls people simplifying to that extent are doing the opposite of that which they intend to do. If your knee jerk reaction to a story questioning the male stereotype is "the character must be gay/bi" you are part of the problem as much as those who dislike gays. Why? You're equally making it so that men must be the traditional stereotype by having that reaction. I understand what you're arguing here but I think you're ignoring some aspects of the actual text. Kanji's sexuality continues to be an issue after his dungeon--both because the game makes homophobic jokes at his expensive through Yosuke, and as something Kanji himself struggles to express. I don't think people jump to the conclusion that he could be gay or bi because they're superficial or faux-progressive or assuming that a sensitive man who's into sewing cute things must not be straight. Nobody here thinks that. The game itself more than once makes it clear that Kanji himself isn't really sure about his own sexuality right up until the end. He knows he's attracted to Naoto, but that's about it. I agree that there's a lot of value in stories that show that men can care deeply for one another without it being about sexuality, but I think there is reason for Kanji's sexuality to be discussed as part of his character as well. Catsplosion posted:I'd say it's quite nuanced but it's not because this is a problem that is extremely common today - I'd go as far as saying I know people who think they should be female because they don't fit the 'traditional' male stereotype. Whilst also heavily liking tradition. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, though. Are you talking about transgender people or something else here? I'm not really sure what point this is trying to make.
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Mar 18, 2021 00:19
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Sorry I just saw this and it's 8 years old but I love it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hanf0lwBhfY No I don't know why there's an extra minute of silent, black screen at the end
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Mar 18, 2021 02:06
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Also, bold decision on saying 'These Ancient Greeks definitely cared for each other in an entirely platonic way.'
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Mar 18, 2021 02:09
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IShallRiseAgain posted:Kanji's sexuality is irrelevant to his arc, and explicitly spelling out his sexuality would ruin the message of his arc. The entire point of his arc is that he can be into "girly" things without that defining his entire identity. yeah I get why people would want to take a positive sexuality message away from it, but I think focusing on his sexuality or Naoto's gender is completely missing the point and kinda doing a disservice. The point is kinda that Kanji hasn't figured that stuff out yet and that it's okay, it's kinda not our business unless Kanji decided to tell Yu (and us the players by extension). Ibram Gaunt posted:Persona 2 already let you have a gay romance so I don't think that they walked anything back tbh. Didn't P1, for that matter? Acerbatus fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 03:47
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Acerbatus posted:Didn't P1, for that matter?
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Mar 18, 2021 03:55
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I wish there was more hugging in this game. I feel like there are 50 conversations that should end with a hug and it’s just “alright.” *nods, leaves*
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Mar 18, 2021 03:56
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Best Bi Geek Squid posted:I think we can just all just agree to asexually and aromatically knit each other a bunch of persona dolls I'd unironically be pretty happy if Persona had an asexual but not aromantic relation with any gender combination. Or basically anything with romance in it. Funky Valentine posted:The only romance I remember in P1 is like half the playable girls wanting to bone Boy With Earring. eh, I might be confusing it with P2 anyways.
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Mar 18, 2021 03:57
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Denying Yumi a hug is both brutal and probably best for everyone involved.Acerbatus posted:I'd unironically be pretty happy if Persona had an asexual but not aromantic relation with any gender combination. Honestly I could easily read Yusuke as ace/aro. He's just really, really into art/lobster/hot pot.
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Mar 18, 2021 03:58
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DC Murderverse posted:I wish there was more hugging in this game. I feel like there are 50 conversations that should end with a hug and it’s just “alright.” *nods, leaves* Let Joker give Futaba a hug, poor kid needs it 
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Mar 18, 2021 03:58
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I want a completely asexual aromantic protagonist for P6, so that I can finally feel seen.DC Murderverse posted:I wish there was more hugging in this game. I feel like there are 50 conversations that should end with a hug and it’s just “alright.” *nods, leaves* Every P4 SL should end with a manly hug.
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Mar 18, 2021 03:59
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Funky Valentine posted:I want a completely asexual aromantic protagonist for P6, so that I can finally feel seen. Only if Nanako gives you the manliest.
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Mar 18, 2021 04:03
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Harrow posted:Let Joker give Futaba a hug, poor kid needs it The scene I had just watched was Sojiro confronting Futaba and Joker about the calling card and learning the truth and everyone in that room clearly needed a hug after. How can you have a found family without hugs of acceptance? It’s like curry without apples and honey.
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Mar 18, 2021 04:05
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Futaba's SL10 Link is pure joy and it really reinforces her as the best. "You gave me my life back" and geez, that's some feelings heavyweight punches.
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Mar 18, 2021 04:11
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DC Murderverse posted:I wish there was more hugging in this game. I feel like there are 50 conversations that should end with a hug and it’s just “alright.” *nods, leaves* If Persona 3 taught me anything it's that hugs are dangerous.
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Mar 18, 2021 06:04
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Acerbatus posted:If Persona 3 taught me anything it's that hugs are dangerous.  I hate that moment in no small part because I strongly suspect it's the reason so many people hate an extremely human and relatable character. The reason it kicks her into reverse just doesn't culturally translate at all. (TL;DR: She takes it as an attempt to make a move on her romantically, because of Katsura Hashino being Katsura Hashino, his weird belief that men and women can't be platonic friends, and a greater emphasis on the importance of respecting personal space in Japan compared to most of the west.) That, and Michelle Ruff takes a while to find her feet. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 06:33
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Hellioning posted:Also, bold decision on saying 'These Ancient Greeks definitely cared for each other in an entirely platonic way.' It's not bold at all, that's the problem and you are entirely ignoring the point of what I said (the problem these interpretations create). Nice way of changing what I have stated, I did not state that their friendship was entirely platonic. We simply do not know enough of Archaic proto-greek beliefs and culture to make a distinction and because of that we have to go off of what is stated in the Iliad and odyssey, anything else is unacademic, inaccurate and quite frankly projection from a place of personal belief. Typical - purposefully misinterpret what somebody else has said and then refute that, you're also I think misinterpreting my intention though not purposefully. I stated a fact. There is no implication of homosexuality in that text. They were raised as brothers, essentially, why would anybody jump to the assumption of homosexuality? Also they weren't Greeks at this time and later Greek writing about it is no different from us talking about it today, projecting our changes in what is 'right' backwards. This is commonly accepted in academia regarding these texts at the moment, though that could obviously change. To reiterate because I just know it will be lost in translation I am not disagreeing with homosexuality but with it's portrayal as progressive when in actually its further reinforcing the traditional roles of male/female (in the context of that book and the P4 game). I don't think this helps anybody. I actually think the way in which P4 addressed it might have a good impact on Japanese society. A softer approach slowly breaks down those barriers. Sadly that is lost on the western audience who are essentially screaming "BE LIKE US NOW, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU". Ignoring that change takes time and too much at once causes newtons third law to present it self quite strongly. In the cultural and psychological realm of course. We are seeing that happen in America as we speak. Hellioning posted:What 'Japan' thinks isn't really relevant. Saying that what japans thinks is irrelevant is incredibly stupid when we are discussing the reasons why this has happened. It's relevant because we are talking about a game written by Japanese writers who are towing the line between the traditional and modern culture of their times. You can pat yourself on the back for virtue signalling though and adding nothing to the discussion. It's a mistake if it was the original story they wanted to present. If the story they told is the one they wanted to tell. It isn't a mistake. I have a feeling that this is the story they wanted to tell because it is a more subtle approach at an important issue and I think their hope from it may be the same as the one both you and I want. Though I agree that it would be nice to have the option for more same-sex relationships in games though. Choice is always preferable. Hopefully future P5 games do so. Harrow posted:I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, though. Are you talking about transgender people or something else here? I'm not really sure what point this is trying to make. The point of my post which I think you did pick up on was that the perception of men as 'girly' because of 'girly things/roles' reinforces traditional stereotypes and doesn't break them down. I then said that part as an example. I have a trans friend who has very heavily define male/female roles in her head and I can't help but think it is cause and effect. She does not think the male stereotype and her views of male and female roles are quite extreme - to the point that men are violent and uncaring and women are all caring and benevolent. I must iterate here though that in the end it's her choice to make, though I worry for my friend. I actually think the psychological definition of male/female was a mistake. I see no science to say that women and men are technically any different mentally, only culturally, which stems from physical genetic differences and not the mental side of things. Those genes seem to be interchangeable. (technically all are but obviously the ones associated with male and female sex only cross barriers through error, like XXY, etc) Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 18:02
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Catsplosion posted:I actually think the way in which P4 addressed it might have a good impact on Japanese society. A softer approach slowly breaks down those barriers. Sadly that is lost on the western audience who are essentially screaming "BE LIKE US NOW, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU". Ignoring that change takes time and too much at once causes newtons third law to present it self quite strongly. In the cultural and psychological realm of course. We are seeing that happen in America as we speak. I don't think anyone in this thread is imposing western values on Japanese media, and I think what you wrote here (about what "might have a good impact on Japanese society") reads more like that than anything else people have said about Kanji in this thread. I think you're reading more aggression into people's posts about how they read a character than is meant. (I also think you're taking Hellioning's post way too seriously when that post reads to me as a clear attempt to change the subject to something lighter.)
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Mar 18, 2021 18:24
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Harrow posted:I don't think anyone in this thread is imposing western values on Japanese media I disagree. I think based on the time and current (though just shifting considerably) culture of japan to consider characters as gay or trans is doing just that. We openly discuss these (to a degree) in the west. Do the Japanese? Most of what I have read points to 'no, not yet' in fact I think any open discussion of such is frowned upon. Hopefully that changes though. It seems to be with the current acceptance of same-sex marriage. Harrow posted:(I also think you're taking Hellioning's post way too seriously when that post reads to me as a clear attempt to change the subject to something lighter.) We'll have to agree to disagree here. You see a light tone where I see an accusatory and arrogant one. quote:Also, bold decision on saying 'These Ancient Greeks definitely cared for each other in an entirely platonic way.' Totally changing the subject. You seriously don't read a negative tone to this post? Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 18:30
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I was referring to the "what 'Japan' thinks isn't really relevant" post. My bad on the ambiguity, I didn't catch that both posts you were replying to were from the same person.
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Mar 18, 2021 18:34
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Fair enough though I think that even that post has a negative dismissive tone to it and is virtue signalling because what me and you were talking about is directly relevant to how Japanese perceive the issues we were talking about. To completely dismiss what the Japanese currently think and the shift happening is in my mind both racist and interjects a western superiority into the conversation that I don't like. Before that I thought we were starting quite an interesting discussion on how these stories are told and the influences and traditional and modern day perceptions they have to deal with to tell those stories. Also discussing the pros and cons of subtle versus explicit story telling. Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 18:39
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People have repeatedly, including on the very last page, explained how P4 is not and never was remotely foward thinking.
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Mar 18, 2021 18:44
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Motto posted:People have repeatedly, including on the very last page, explained how P4 is not and never was remotely foward thinking. and I'm disagreeing and saying they took a more subtle approach (with Kanji, I can't talk about Naoto because I remember little of that part of the story) with the same underlying intention of breaking down the male/female traditional stereotypes that a lot of people do not see because they expect explicit monologues over nuanced and subtle abstraction. Even though we are discussing art, not science. Are their opinions the authority on P4? Am I not allowed to add to the discussion then? I thought I was adding to the discussion by presenting this view. Perhaps I should just nod and agree, instead of expressing a view that isn't negative in the slightest. Hopefully we can get back to that original discussion. We should all be careful to not mistake disagreement with dislike or negativity. To get the discussion back towards that topic. If any of you were to hazard a guess at what the central themes of the next game were going to be, bar the usual underlying themes, considering the change happening in Japanese culture, what sort of story focus do you imagine it would have? Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 18:46
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This is a topic that can get pretty heated when it comes to Persona 4 in particular so I think we might all just be reading each other ungenerously. It can be a sensitive topic as well since we're talking about gender and sexuality, so I always want to make sure we're taking that topic seriously and respecting each other's experiences there as well. It's a hard thing to discuss. I'm a cis, straight guy myself so I'm trying to be aware that my own experiences and my own readings of things are necessarily limited and I can really only speak for myself, y'know?Catsplosion posted:To get the discussion back towards that topic. If any of you were to hazard a guess at what the central themes of the next game were going to be, bar the usual underlying themes, considering the change happening in Japanese culture, what sort of story focus do you imagine it would have? I'm curious to see on this front, because I don't think I would've ever guessed Persona 5's overall theme before it was announced. Plus, the series will have a new director going forward, so it could take a different direction than I might expect (at least thematically--I don't foresee moving away from high school with life sim elements at this point now that the series is so successful with that formula). Harrow fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 19:30
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Catsplosion posted:The point of my post which I think you did pick up on was that the perception of men as 'girly' because of 'girly things/roles' reinforces traditional stereotypes and doesn't break them down. I then said that part as an example. I have a trans friend who has very heavily define male/female roles in her head and I can't help but think it is cause and effect. She does not think the male stereotype and her views of male and female roles are quite extreme - to the point that men are violent and uncaring and women are all caring and benevolent. I must iterate here though that in the end it's her choice to make, though I worry for my friend. I actually think the psychological definition of male/female was a mistake. I see no science to say that women and men are technically any different mentally, only culturally, which stems from physical genetic differences and not the mental side of things. Those genes seem to be interchangeable. (technically all are but obviously the ones associated with male and female sex only cross barriers through error, like XXY, etc) Are we pathologizing being trans here in the persona thread
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Mar 18, 2021 20:04
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On a lighter note... It's still very early in the game but I'm already feeling slightly let down by the P5R soundtrack, but mainly that's because I liked the P4G soundtrack so much. Running around town with Signs of Love or Your Affection playing in the background feels more fun compared to Beneath the Mask.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:14
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How far into the game are you? The third semester has some of the best music in all of P5 imo.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:16
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anakha posted:It's still very early in the game but I'm already feeling slightly let down by the P5R soundtrack, but mainly that's because I liked the P4G soundtrack so much. I think I prefer Persona 4's "hanging out around town" music but Persona 5's dungeon and battle music. They both have great soundtracks but something about P5's battle and dungeon themes just hits me just right.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:17
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Badger of Basra posted:How far into the game are you? The third semester has some of the best music in all of P5 imo. It's been a couple of days after clearing Kamoshida's Castle, so like I said earlier, still very early in the game. Harrow posted:I think I prefer Persona 4's "hanging out around town" music but Persona 5's dungeon and battle music. They both have great soundtracks but something about P5's battle and dungeon themes just hits me just right. Yeah, I will say that the dungeon music in Kamoshida's Castle was  . The battle theme is still a tie for me, but I like the P5R victory theme a little bit better.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:18
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anakha posted:Yeah, I will say that the dungeon music in Kamoshida's Castle was The dungeon music only gets better from there, too. There are some real bangers later on.
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Mar 18, 2021 20:25
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I made this post pages back but yea I prefer the "day in the life" JPOP music of Persona 4. However the Dungeon and Battle music in Persona 5 is leagues better imo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvfS5qNmxdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HKP8ufTj30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwH6rZk7VM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWizFF5fn-I I could honestly go on, but these are some of my favorites. But yea for "slice of life" daily music I like these two tracks from Persona 4 (again only 25 hours in so I'm sure I haven't heard them all yet): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGyVct4wi2E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNWQBkMu8R0 *edit* Lyn Inaizumi really makes the music in Persona 5. She can really belt out some tunes Here is a live performance she gave https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO1fg0C7cDo Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 20:38
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That keeps up in Persona 5 Strikers, too, which features one of my favorite boss themes ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdabXlguFpA Also, Persona Q2 has a really cute opening song that, since the game is a Persona 3, 4, and 5 crossover, features a trio performance from the main vocalists for all three games, along with Lotus Juice rapping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GSuWkZ3kms
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Mar 18, 2021 21:16
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Catsplosion posted:I disagree. I think based on the time and current (though just shifting considerably) culture of japan to consider characters as gay or trans is doing just that. We openly discuss these (to a degree) in the west. Do the Japanese? Most of what I have read points to 'no, not yet' in fact I think any open discussion of such is frowned upon. it isnt 'subjecting the japanese to western values' to say that you can just have a character be gay or trans in fiction. the language used to talk about being them, especially being trans, is different, and there are definitely times ive seen people pushing western values in that sense, but do you think 'the japanese would NEVER have a character be openly gay...' is somehow not acting like the west is superior? Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 22:11
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Catsplosion posted:I actually think the way in which P4 addressed it might have a good impact on Japanese society. A softer approach slowly breaks down those barriers. Sadly that is lost on the western audience who are essentially screaming "BE LIKE US NOW, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU". Ignoring that change takes time and too much at once causes newtons third law to present it self quite strongly. In the cultural and psychological realm of course. We are seeing that happen in America as we speak.
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Mar 18, 2021 22:15
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Honestly if P4 is secretly progressive that makes the backside into “all gay men
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Mar 18, 2021 22:39
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