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I know it's just a movie, but I thought this scene in Fury was a good one for indirect fire on tanks. Bible flinching as the round lands near them and you can hear the shrapnel peppering the tank is a real big "I would not want to be in that situation" moment.
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Mar 18, 2021 18:34
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Notahippie posted:My granddad's tank platoon (13th Armored) got ambushed in Europe and his tank took a hit from something that wounded him and his gunner but not critically. His uninjured driver dropped out of the hatch and ran back to the next tank in the line and told them that their tank was hosed and the rest of the crew was dead, so his platoon ended up assaulting through the ambush and then driving off without him. He was kind of pissed off about it.
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Mar 18, 2021 18:36
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Arquinsiel posted:One would forgive him for being significantly pissed off. He was the platoon CO - he was in his early 20s and a Lt - so I'm pretty sure that dude got latrine duty for a while. His injury involved enough shrapnel splinters in his eyes that he got sent back to Paris, but it wasn't disabling so he ended up having a lot of fun. We have some pictures of him grinning ear to ear sitting at bistro table with beer in front of him. It came back to bite him in the rear end later when the VA records didn't flag that he had shrapnel in his eyes to the Doc that scheduled him for an MRI. He was at the door to the MRI room when he asked the tech if it would be a problem and he says the guy turned white as a sheet when he double-checked the records. He got an X-ray instead.
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Mar 18, 2021 19:12
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If you haven't already, go share all this with the milhist thread.
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Mar 18, 2021 19:26
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Arquinsiel posted:If you haven't already, go share all this with the milhist thread. That thread is so big that I never dipped into it, but I'll repost this over there - I've been meaning to read it anyway.
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Mar 18, 2021 19:46
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Endman posted:'the best wargame being the one people are willing to play' *looks at 40K and AoS* yeah, no, I think the maxim is wrong
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Mar 18, 2021 21:59
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Cessna posted:Of course, but Flames of War and its spinoff Team Yankee under-power artillery to an unrealistic degree. I don't want to come off too mean, but we're talking a game system where helicopter coherency rules didn't leave enough space for propeller disks, Soviets consistently use companies where others would get platoons, your Katushas and heavy arty are on the same table as tanks*, and which gave rise to term "tank parking lots." *Yes, I'm mad about on-table artillery in Battlegroup as well.
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Mar 18, 2021 22:07
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JcDent posted:I don't want to come off too mean, but we're talking a game system where helicopter coherency rules didn't leave enough space for propeller disks, Soviets consistently use companies where others would get platoons, your Katushas and heavy arty are on the same table as tanks*, and which gave rise to term "tank parking lots." I assure you that this is not my only criticism of the game.
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Mar 18, 2021 22:53
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Cessna posted:Oh, absolutely - we're dealing with human psychology under conditions of extreme stress. People aren't going to react predictably. I'm pretty sure even that's not true since IIRC there was that cold war study that showed that even near misses were causing "real damage" to tanks, ignoring any morale issues that might happen; breaking track and suspensions, partially penetrating the compartment, damaging guns and optics, and other things that, even if they wouldn't turn a tank into a burning wreck, would mean it's not going to be a fighting unit anymore. spectralent fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 23:57
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Does flames of war not have a pinning system? Because that seems the best way to represent HE impacts on tanks. In Bolt Action you can neutralize a tank with HE by just pinning the poo poo out of it even if you don’t penetrate it’s armor.
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Mar 19, 2021 00:14
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It does but it doesn't apply to tanks and they have their own system of bailing out and remounting instead.
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Mar 19, 2021 01:15
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spectralent posted:I'm pretty sure even that's not true since IIRC there was that cold war study that showed that even near misses were causing "real damage" to tanks, ignoring any morale issues that might happen; breaking track and suspensions, partially penetrating the compartment, damaging guns and optics, and other things that, even if they wouldn't turn a tank into a burning wreck, would mean it's not going to be a fighting unit anymore. Games and popular culture in general have a hard time dealing with the idea that even bullets/rounds that miss do something. Speaking of tonks, how does damaging them in FoW work? Cos in BG, you compare the armor facing (hull - turret don't matter) to the AP rating of the firer, and then you get a score to roll on 2d6. The possible outcomes are Greater than: tank explodes Equal: auto-pin Less than: morale check (3+ nothing happens, 2 pinned, 1 abandoned if already pinned/immobilized/soft skin) Snake eyes: immobilized All of thia feels kinda... too lethal to me?
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Mar 19, 2021 05:15
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Ah, the glorious Corvus Belli metal sculpts, now rendered in plastic by PSC:
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Mar 19, 2021 08:13
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Just need a wash on those faces to really finish off the cake of paint. Quick Bolt Action quandry, what's the best way to deal with German Autocannon AFVs? They look brutal.
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Mar 19, 2021 09:48
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Cassa posted:Just need a wash on those faces to really finish off the cake of paint. Dedicated AT at a distance, I find a KV or heavy AT gun will put a crimp in their style
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Mar 19, 2021 14:16
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JcDent posted:Games and popular culture in general have a hard time dealing with the idea that even bullets/rounds that miss do something. Tanks have three armor values: Front, side/rear and top. If any part of the shooter's model is behind a imaginary line drawn between the target's tracks, it hits the side. Artillery always hits the top. Guns have a AT value and a Firepower value. Shooter rolls to hit, has to equal or beat the target's "to hit" value, with a bunch of modifiers for range, concealment, etc. If hits, target rolls d6, adds it's armor value, +1 if long range. Compares to firer's anti-tank value. If armor + save = AT value: Shooter rolls firepower check. If successful, target is bailed out. If armor + save < AT Value: Shooter rolls firepower check. If successful, target is destroyed. If not, bailed out. if armor + save > AT value: Nothing happens. Concrete example: Panther shooting at IS-2. Panther shoots. IS-2 is hit on 3+. Add -1 to roll because of long range (more than 40cm), -1 to roll because of concealment. Panther rolls 5. Hits. Panther's gun has AT value of 14 vs. IS-2s front armor of 10. Add 1 for long range. IS-2 rolls save. If he rolls 4+, nothing happens. If he rolls 3, Panther rolls firepower check to bail out. If he rolls 1 or 2, Panther rolls firepower check to destroy, bails out if fails. Panther has a 3+ firepower. Bailed out tanks can take no actions on their turn, and are automatically destroyed if they are assaulted by infantry. A tank that is already bailed out that is bailed out again needs to pass a morale check or be destroyed. Bailed out tanks roll a morale check at the start of their turn - If they succeed, they are no longer bailed out. As far as artillery goes, it ranges in AT value from 1 (light mortars) to 3 (heavy artillery). Tanks top armor ranges from 0 (open topped) to 2 (heavy tanks). So... artillery can cause problems for light armor, and heavy artillery can take out medium tanks, but that is usually poor usage of artillery, because you want them to be shooting enemy AT guns and infantry to pin them down. Which seems... fine?
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Mar 19, 2021 14:38
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My big complaint with FOW has always been their Asiatic Hordes approach to writing Soviets, but this has actually gone away entirely recently. You now have options to field elite Soviet units with high skill values in both FOW and TY, and conversely, they don't default anymore to making Germans ultra-elite übermensch - you can take lovely Germanic Hordes by playing the Waffen SS or the garrison troops from the Normandy book. The ruleset is heavily abstracted, and it does make concessions to gameplay by having artillery be on the table - Because artillery is cool as poo poo and people want to paint up little batteries of artillery and put them on the table, even if realistically at that scale they'd be sitting on a table in your neighbor's house - But I feel like those are all valid game design choices you have to make if you want to make a 15mm scale wargame that you can finish in a afternoon.  It's not perfect by any means, but it is the game people here play and it is good enough that playing it is fun. I was a big fan of Battlegroup, but every time I've roped someone into playing it it has kind of bogged down in a morass of checking tables and reading up on special rules for every little goddamn thing. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 14:52
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Geisladisk posted:So... artillery can cause problems for light armor, and heavy artillery can take out medium tanks, but that is usually poor usage of artillery, because you want them to be shooting enemy AT guns and infantry to pin them down. Which seems... fine? Artillery should cause problems for all tanks and have a slight chance of taking out any tank. Sure, yes, there's more to it - a 60mm mortar shouldn't be hunting with JS-IIs. My point here is that artillery should, at a minimum, make tanks nervous. They shouldn't be okay with just sitting in a barrage comfortably. JcDent posted:Games and popular culture in general have a hard time dealing with the idea that even bullets/rounds that miss do something. Very much so, yes. But - Geisladisk posted:It's not perfect by any means, but it is the game people here play and it is good enough that playing it is fun. Yeah, I'm nitpicking. It's not my favorite, but it's good enough. Cessna fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 16:57
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So my resin printer arrived and got me wondering if there's a good repository of historical stl's out there. You can't throw a stick without hitting knock-off GW or D&D titty models but unless you like tanks it seems finding stuff besides terrain is a little hard. Anyone got any resources?
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Mar 19, 2021 17:55
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Springfield Fatts posted:So my resin printer arrived and got me wondering if there's a good repository of historical stl's out there. You can't throw a stick without hitting knock-off GW or D&D titty models but unless you like tanks it seems finding stuff besides terrain is a little hard. Anyone got any resources? There isn’t much yet. For 15mm the march to hell sets are great. Otherwise if you give me a scale and time period I’ll see what I have in my bookmark list.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:28
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I do WWII in 20mm so I could probably scale up any 15mm or down 28mm stuff. I also do Moderns & Napoleonics in 6mm. If you have any 6mm wwII infantry to go with the gobs of tank files that'd be cool. In general any cool sculptors you can think of would be appreciated. I watched the LittleWars video and got some leads from there, but again there weren't many actual human models.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:40
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Springfield Fatts posted:I do WWII in 20mm so I could probably scale up any 15mm or down 28mm stuff. I also do Moderns & Napoleonics in 6mm. If you have any 6mm wwII infantry to go with the gobs of tank files that'd be cool. In general any cool sculptors you can think of would be appreciated. I watched the LittleWars video and got some leads from there, but again there weren't many actual human models. The 3d sculpting community for historicals is still pretty limited at the moment. Here is what I've found so far: https://www.3dbreed.es/ for 15mm WW2 and Ancients. They look great at 15mm, but scaled up they are pretty chonky. https://www.wargaming3d.com/ for various historical stuff, mostly 28mm WW2. https://www.patreon.com/RedDawn3DMiniatures/posts Cheap, but fairly janky 28mm WW2 infantry. https://www.patreon.com/madox_historicalminis 15/28mm Seven Years War models. https://www.myminifactory.com/users/EskiceMiniature 15/28mm WW2 French, ACW, Napoleonics https://www.wargaming3d.com/vendor/henryturner/ 10/15mm ACW
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Mar 19, 2021 20:05
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I feel like having artillery on the doesn't serve to make the game faster, unless misread the post. And while I'm happy that trash Waffle SS exists now, the regular Soviets are still pushing companies rather than platoons, right? Also, have parking lots gone away? I guess Battlegroup is my the my good-enough-not-perfect game, although I haven't run with artillery yet (for those not in the know: artillery is the single longest chapter in the book). I wish the writing was tighter, but the authors are more cut of a cloth closer to Lardies, completely missing that having the impartial rule designer judgement on LoS or whatever is desirable even when playing with friends in a non-tournament setting. Springfield Fatts posted:So my resin printer arrived and got me wondering if there's a good repository of historical stl's out there. You can't throw a stick without hitting knock-off GW or D&D titty models but unless you like tanks it seems finding stuff besides terrain is a little hard. Anyone got any resources? There's a good repository of 15mm vehicles on thingiverse, just google ww2 15mm and you'll find it easily. Infantry? Thou art fuk't
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Mar 19, 2021 20:55
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JcDent posted:I feel like having artillery on the doesn't serve to make the game faster, unless misread the post. Geisladisk posted:artillery is cool as poo poo and people want to paint up little batteries of artillery and put them on the table, even if realistically at that scale they'd be sitting on a table in your neighbor's house
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Mar 19, 2021 23:24
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Class Warcraft posted:Good poo poo. Thanks for the recommendations!
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Mar 20, 2021 01:00
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Parking lots and on-table artillery aren't going away because 1. people love putting whole tank formations on the table 2. people love painting little toy artillery pieces 3. people ain't gonna start playing on tennis courts.
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Mar 20, 2021 01:04
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Hey I mentioned I was getting into minis painting on an online group and a helpful friend sent me what looks like at least a hundred 28mm metal Vikings. I've been kind of looking at Saga as a game, what stuff should I paint up for a starter army? Looks like I've got a ton of huscarls and bondi, a few archers and civilians, and some berserkers; plus some mounted troops. (Also is just standard superglue usable for this?)
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Mar 20, 2021 02:50
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Parking lots and on-table artillery aren't going away because 1. people love putting whole tank formations on the table 2. people love painting little toy artillery pieces 3. people ain't gonna start playing on tennis courts. At least in 6mm it makes a bit more sense than 15 or *shudder* 28mm.
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Mar 20, 2021 05:30
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Signal posted:or *shudder* 28mm. Bolt Action!  seriously, the French get a free 75 as part of their national rules.The "but I want an artillery battery on the table" thing feels like a solvable player-side issue - I mean, I wasn't born with my hate for on-table arty or the desire to use my on-table tanks to take it out (that's what counter-battery is for!). Though having it also makes sense from business perspective: 1. More models to sell 2. A bigger variety of stuff to appear in an army list 3. A way to insert some iconic units like Katyushas and Priests into the game 4. Players wouldn't buy and paint these if they were kept off table as visual representations of artillery assets you have. Putting it all together, I should just  , write a blog post about it, and then live knowing that it's not going away, just like flyers (or bad rules  ) in 40K.
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Mar 20, 2021 06:40
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JcDent posted:4. Players wouldn't buy and paint these if they were kept off table as visual representations of artillery assets you have. Eeeh with the advent of 3d print, I'm totally doing some off-table katyushas and a large pipe of some sort for my 28mm soviets.
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Mar 20, 2021 07:57
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Geisladisk posted:
As someone who has only read the rule book, and not played, can you tell me more about this? It seemed like the kind of thing I would be super into as well.
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Mar 20, 2021 10:04
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Signal posted:As someone who has only read the rule book, and not played, can you tell me more about this? It seemed like the kind of thing I would be super into as well. I don't know what he means with the SPECIAL RULES FOR EVERYTHING as opposed to Flames lol, but from my experience, you'll be holding that QRS near and dear due to the Aimed Fire and Suppression fire tables being always important, and then the God-drat AP table also being its own thing. I feel like it runs fast and smooth as long as your QRS is laminated
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Mar 20, 2021 10:14
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Battlegroup has a bit of a problem in that it's best to get a demo to get started. There is an introductory scenario/game floating around, but no real beginner guide. I always leave out arty in demo games because you do need a qrs for that (and yes, laminate that stuff, but that should be standard for all your qrs sheets). That said, if you've got a few games under your belt it flows very quickly. You don't have to consult the qrs as much, for stuff like spotting or the ap/armour values for your sherman or stugg. The most annoying thing is the "we don't do new versions of rulebooks" which means that you have to get faq's. The fb group is pretty alright as well, with the authors chiming in and following up on questions. It's got a nice community, and it's very much geared towards historical/campaign play in stead of tournament style trappings. Also: you can spend points on off table artillery, timed barrages etc, so you don't have that stuff on the table unless you want to model it.
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Mar 20, 2021 11:04
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Geisladisk posted:My big complaint with FOW has always been their Asiatic Hordes approach to writing Soviets, but this has actually gone away entirely recently. You now have options to field elite Soviet units with high skill values in both FOW and TY, and conversely, they don't default anymore to making Germans ultra-elite übermensch - you can take lovely Germanic Hordes by playing the Waffen SS or the garrison troops from the Normandy book. This is basically how I feel about it. It's not the best, but I'm at a stage in my life where I just don't care about things like artillery on the table or tank spacing, as long as I can have fun painting and pushing around little plastic tanks. JcDent posted:And while I'm happy that trash Waffle SS exists now, the regular Soviets are still pushing companies rather than platoons, right? Also, have parking lots gone away? I mean, they still call them "companies" rather than platoons, but you can take as few as three tanks per "company" if you take the more experienced option. I feel like the name of the unit has very little to do with what it represents.
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Mar 20, 2021 11:11
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JcDent posted:Putting it all together, I should just What's up with flyers in 40k? My dabbling got merked by covid so I didn't get super familiar with stuff like planes.
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Mar 20, 2021 12:00
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Endman posted:I mean, they still call them "companies" rather than platoons, but you can take as few as three tanks per "company" if you take the more experienced option. I feel like the name of the unit has very little to do with what it represents. Yeah, I looked at the Battlescribe for 4e and the Hero  Rifle Battalion has """companies""" like 7-15 teams strong while the regular one is 15-22. A sane man would have called it platoon and be done with it, but a sane man wouldn't have called it "hero" in the first place. Poor dudes still get hit on 4+ rather than the lofty nazi 3+  Still, I do feel like the FoW tonk system, with the bailing and what not, would be more fun in smaller scale game that's not Bolt Action small (though maybe Bolt Action could have bailouts or tank retreats or whatever to make "two mediums slug it out for three turns to no effect" less likely). spectralent posted:What's up with flyers in 40k? My dabbling got merked by covid so I didn't get super familiar with stuff like planes. It happened like 4 editions ago, but nowaways, every faction has fighter planes and whatnot that can mill around on a 28mm table. It's not helped by the fact that this necessitated giving Space Marines some of the dumbest, ugliest poo poo ever put in plastic.
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Mar 20, 2021 12:21
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I mean yeah 40k sucks but at least flyers gave us those dope rear end ork jets.
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Mar 20, 2021 13:27
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JcDent posted:The "but I want an artillery battery on the table" thing feels like a solvable player-side issue - I mean, I wasn't born with my hate for on-table arty or the desire to use my on-table tanks to take it out (that's what counter-battery is for!). Have "off-map" zones where you stow all your "off-map" artillery models. Artillery in the off-map zones can target the regular board and the enemy off-map zone (in counter-battery missions), but non-artillery cannot target anything in the off-map zones. You can bring artillery onto the regular map, but the only reason to do so would be to take advantage of direct fire (such as the 25-pounder's AP shell in North Africa).
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Mar 20, 2021 15:07
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StashAugustine posted:Hey I mentioned I was getting into minis painting on an online group and a helpful friend sent me what looks like at least a hundred 28mm metal Vikings. I've been kind of looking at Saga as a game, what stuff should I paint up for a starter army? Looks like I've got a ton of huscarls and bondi, a few archers and civilians, and some berserkers; plus some mounted troops. Super glue (cyanoacrylate) is fine for metal. If you are just getting started, dudes on foot with axes/swords and not particularly armored other than helmet and shield can work in quite a few forces and should be a good core to figure out what you like and what you want to concentrate on. Mounted stuff and archers are getting a bit niche, but paint whatever makes you happy.
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Mar 20, 2021 19:10
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StashAugustine posted:Hey I mentioned I was getting into minis painting on an online group and a helpful friend sent me what looks like at least a hundred 28mm metal Vikings. I've been kind of looking at Saga as a game, what stuff should I paint up for a starter army? Looks like I've got a ton of huscarls and bondi, a few archers and civilians, and some berserkers; plus some mounted troops. Keep in mind that I'm brand new to Saga (maybe foolishly, who knows if people play it in the pnw) and i've only played a couple games but I've been reading about it for a while and can regurgitate other's opinions. You can only ever have a max of 4 berserkers, and that's only if you ran it as a 'Vikings' force, so I wouldn't paint any more as that. That said, proxying is chill in the community from what I've heard so if you absolutely love them I'm sure it'd be fine. Levy units only come in groups of 12, and from what i've seen the vast majority run 0-1 groups of levy (unless they're playing Anglo-Saxons) so I wouldn't worry about painting up more than 12 to start out. Most levy options (for all armies) use either bows or javelins (irish use slings, but those are the same as bows so it's an easy proxy), and both are available to Vikings so just pick whichever of those. From there, I'd decide how many units of Warriors (groups of 8) or Hearthguard you want (groups of 4). 6 Points is the standard game, but 4 points is also a good place to start (and you should have enough models for 2 four point armies if you want). No viking factions have mounted units (except for Pagan Rus if it's specifically being led by Rurik) so with those I'd pick a non-viking army and start building around that. Hopefully they have spears so you can easily say if they're javelins/hand weapons since those are usually your two options. StashAugustine posted:(Also is just standard superglue usable for this?) Yes any superglue (CA glue) will work. A lot of people like Bob Smith Industries Insta-Cure+ for metal minis if you wanna get something popular with the modeling community but it doesn't really matter.
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Mar 20, 2021 19:20
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