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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Oh, right, Execution was "kill everyone in the area specified". I mean, just drop that on Kyros and problem solved. Vote 1 Maximum sidequest
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Mar 18, 2021 03:22
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Act 2 Postmortem: This Was Never Going To Work Or: The Status Quo is Bad In the Act 1 postmortem we discussed how the Kyrosian Empire was a clusterfuck of ambitious men - and the occasional woman - fighting each other for who gets to lord over their respective scrap heap. This was brought further into focus in Act 2, when Graven Ashe and Nerat decided that instead of submitting their grievances to Tunon and letting him adjudicate it via Kyros' law, they were going to just kind of awkwardly throw the law into the garbage can and start a civil war. It's tempting to compare the events of Act 1 to something like Abraham Lincoln suspending habeus corpus during the Civil War - the legions were in an emergency situation, and surely the Empire doesn't normally run like this, right? The supposed benefit of having someone like Kyros is that instead of bickering about crises and doing nothing like those idiots in Congress, Kyros can just use her awesome dictator powers and get things done. In practice, this doesn't really work. The Weakness of the Law The player does not encounter Tunon until Act 2. We don't have too many hints that he's anything other than a strict but fair judge. He checks in on the Fatebinder to inquire about their safety, he approves when you faithfully execute the laws, and we end Act 1 on this ominous note:  The game has, up to this point, been very clear that Tunon is not a man to cross. If you check the Reputation tab it tells you that even the Archons fear Tunon's wrath, and we initially get respect from the Voices of Nerat and Graven Ashe because we bear Tunon's words and can execute the law on his behalf. Sure, they're willing to throw Kyros' law in the toilet under extreme circumstances when isolated from the rest of the Empire, but now that Tunon can reach them, all hell is going to break loose, right?  Oh poo poo! They broke Kyros' Peace! Tunon even admits it! We even tell him that the Voices of Nerat murdered Graven Ashe's son, and Tunon replies it's "no small act of war" and then sends Cleopatra on her merry way without resolving anything. Then the meeting ends, and we are told to "dispense justice to both sides of this civil war." No sentence is announced, Bleden Mark is not dispatched to bring in Ashe and Nerat for interrogation by Tunon, more Kyrosian armies do not march across the border to disarm the Disfavored and Chorus until the dispute can be sorted out, and Tunon indicates that he's not happy with the civil war but he's just not going to do anything about it. Even on the paths where he charges you to investigate the Archons, it's clear that a ridiculous amount of evidence is needed to convict one under Kyros' law, and if you ask him he explains you're not likely to get both. Why? In Tunon's Court posted:
We actually gain favor from Tunon for saying that, because that's the truth! The laws are in place not to constrain the powerful like Graven Ashe or the Voices of Nerat, but to constrain people lower on the totem pole like Lady Lucretia or the regular citizens of the Empire.  Blood Mulch is a regular guy. He has a few privileges under Magician's Folly, sure, but if we had something on him - real or fabricated - we could kill him then and there and Tunon would clap. The average person on the street is terrified of a Fatebinder's judgment, and for good reason!  This is further compounded by Tunon's sincerely held belief that the existing laws as laid down by Kyros are the ultimate good and thus true justice can only be achieved by faithfully executing them, and that despite the laws being a contradictory mess designed to be shaped into a weapon to crush upstarts they provide moral guidance that lesser minds cannot possibly understand.  The great irony is that Tunon could not have gotten this position without his nearly-unwavering devotion to the laws of Kyros, and thus this blinds him to how things really work in the empire. The Archons are elevated so they can use their power for the benefit of all, and this blinds him to the reality that out of the six Archons who crossed the border, four of the six betrayed Kyros. There is no legal recourse to stop the civil war, so it must continue and is retroactively declared the will of the Overlord. A less deluded Archon could have traded favors to march in another army or two to suppress the warring parties, but Tunon only knows the law, so Ashe and Nerat get off scot-free. This culminates in the legal disaster at Lethian's Crossing, where the Fatebinder is caught in a classic catch-22: violate the proscription against venturing into the Oldwalls, a crime even Archons can be convicted for, or allow Raetommon's rebellion to fester which is also another crime Tunon takes very seriously. While the game has the player go into the Oldwalls by themselves, it neatly disproves the idea that Kyros has left the perfect system of laws that apply wisely to all circumstances. The Weakness of Kyros I've been harping all game on how weak Cleopatra's position is because we don't have any followers who can do things like fight off Scarlet Chorus invaders or defend Lethian's Crossing. Kyros has the opposite problem - she has to do all her work through her followers, and aside from Tunon, they're a gang of malcontents, sadists, and the power-hungry kept in line by the promise of power for success and the promise of execution for failure. I'm going to be cribbing heavily from The Dictator's Handbook for this section, but it's basically selectorate theory. Now, it's been a while since I sat down and read the book, but here's the basic premise: The Dictator's Handbook posted:First, politics is about getting and keeping political power. It is not about the general welfare of "We, the people." Second, political survival is best assured by depending on few people to attain and retain office. That means dictators, dependent on a few cronies, are in a far better position to stay in office for decades, often dying in their sleep, then are democrats. Third, when the small group of cronies knows that there is a large pool of people waiting on the sidelines to replace them in the queue for gorging at the public trough, then the top leadership has great discretion over how revenue is spent and how much to tax. All that tax revenue opens the door to kleptocracy from many leaders, and public spirited programs from a very few. This may not seem like weakness at first glance. Kyros is locking everyone out of ultimate power except himself, he only needs a few cronies to run things (the Archons), and all the Archons know they're replaceable. The problem is that ultimately Kyros is dependent on the Archons to maintain power and completely loses power if she decides these Archons are more trouble than they're worth. She can replace some of the Archons quite easily, but his power structure demands that the Archons are kept weak and divided or convinced that they won't get a better deal elsewhere. We have seen - briefly- that if the Archons act in unison they can overrule Kyros behind the scenes:  It's not just implied here, Bleden Mark states that "we" offered Graven Ashe amnesty to bring him in line. No individual Archon can stand against Kyros, because there are a bunch of people who would love to become Archons or rise in the Archon hierarchy to loot more money and slaves, but the Archons as a whole have the ability to get Kyros to compromise on certain things. This - despite the Overlord's rhetoric about being all powerful and causing the crops to bloom - means that practically Kyros has to take every action while thinking about the ability to pay his Archons. It sure would be nice to build that hospital, but the Archons won't shut up about how cool it would be to have a new casino run by attractive ladies, and what the Archons want the Archons get. It's not just the Archons either! Ashe talks a good game about how his soldiers fight for honor and the pride of the North and whatnot, but at the end of the day, he's in the same bind - he needs to provide loot for his commanders, who need the loot to pay their troops to stay loyal, and on and on down the chain until the lowest Disfavored soldier gets the least but still more than the average peasant. Service to the cause is rewarded by being able to rise in the Disfavored ranks and capture more money and sex slaves, and you stay in the system because it's a better deal than you'd otherwise get and you can move up to a point. Ashe wants you to be willing to move up in case he needs to fire, say, Radix Ironcore, but by keeping you down your attention's focused on reaching the Iron Guard instead of going truly nuts and trying to take out Ashe. The Scarlet Chorus truly embody this philosophy, with the reward for infighting being the ability to lead more men and steal loot, and people hopping between gangs because they want more money and power.  Teodor is a commander, so he gets the right to take camp slaves. The end result is that the regular people suffer because they have no input - and thus can't ask for a share of the cash - but ultimately, Kyros is incentivized to play this game and empower all of these terrible people because she has no other choice. Even his mighty Edicts require a Fatebinder to proclaim them. Sure, Kyros can lead the armies that have conquered the known world for over 400 years, but ultimately those armies are reliant on Kyros' ability to pay them and during that time there were no real challengers who could perhaps offer the Archons a better deal. The carrot is being able to loot the Empire and be mostly immune to the law, and the stick is being blasted away by Edicts. As long as no one can offer the Archons a better deal, the system holds.  Oops! By doing this, the Fatebinder isn't just challenging the popular ideology that Kyros is the immortal all powerful god who demands obedience and is the only person who wields the power of the Edict, but opening the door for everyone from Teodor the lowly Disfavored commander to the vaguely mentioned Archon of Misery to go to their commanders and ask for bigger bribes under threat of defecting to Team Fatebinder. It threatens the system at both the top and the bottom - the Archons can't be as easily replaced if the people lower on the totem pole won't step into their position because Cleopatra will pay them more money, and the Archons themselves can leave to join Cleopatra for more loot in the future or just secede and keep all the tax money they would normally give to Kyros. If left unchallenged, the entire system falls apart under a civil war far more serious than this little scuffle in the Tiers. Remember, the Archons we've seen generally aren't happy about their deal with Kyros. Sirin quit to join our team. Cairn rebelled. Bleden Mark is working on a long con to get us to the point where we can challenge Kyros. Ashe and Nerat are fighting each other. The greatest threat to the Empire isn't the brave men and women fighting Kyros, but the Archons deciding to quit because they want more loot. Keep this in mind going into the third act of the game.
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Mar 20, 2021 03:09
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Even without the Fatebinder casting an edict, the empire is already heading for a huge stress test. The thing being fought over is always control of the treasury, or more broadly the resources distributed by a superior above and, in turn, used to pay off subordinates below. For the last 400 years, the coffers in Kyros' regime haven't been filled by a well run and diverse tax base, but spoils of war. Invade neighbors seize what they have of value and then distribute the loot, slaves and lands captured to key supporters. Wash, rinse, repeat. With the Tiers being the last major bit of real estate not in the empire, entire system is in jeopardy, for lack of a way to finance itself. Dictator's handbook is pretty clear one of the most important techniques for maintaining power is to brutally purge no longer needed supporters, regardless of how important or loyal they may have been in the past. And if the now unneeded subordinates happen to be a former enemy of questionable loyalty and a total unpredictable loose cannon, so much the better. I dont know fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 03:43
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Having finished tyranny just a month ago, I'm delighted to see this unique path that I never actually took, along with your excellent writing and interesting debates that populate this thread. A great read so far!Zulily Zoetrope posted:
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Mar 20, 2021 19:56
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Mans posted:I followed the scarlet path and was entirely loyal to The Voices and the absolutely awful gut feeling you have everytime you visit the voices and the...interesting changes you see on the headquarters really make it a brutal playthrough. Yeah the Chorus path is basically "oh boy I hope you didn't get too attached to any of these side characters you've met!"
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Mar 20, 2021 20:01
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Well yes, but it turns out those are all necessary evils!
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Mar 20, 2021 20:49
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Kinda tempted to run through this on the rebel path once I finish my current backlog. I can't imagine not playing as a mage. Even if there's some truly batshit melee builds that TGEK just doesn't know about, I can't see how it'd compare to Cleopatra Jones throwing around more power than a magic user at the end of BG2: Throne of Bhaal.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:15
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I'm not sure how it would work on Hard difficulty, but by the midgame my mage offensive spell casting character and Lantry providing party buffs and enemy debuffs were basically playing second fiddle to the absolute beatdown that Verse and Kills in Shadows provided instantly to anyone who stood against us. Seriously, Kills in Shadows is terrifyingly powerful.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:40
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Bleden Mark is working on a long con to get us to the point where we can challenge Kyros. I do think you may be giving him too much credit. I always got the feeling that all of your potential accomplishments are just a nice side effect of what he really wants. An Equal. A Challenge. Someone who can push him to his limits, that he might actually lose to. All Archons are driven to fulfil their nature. Tunun seeks to enforce the laws. Voices of Nerat seeks to know the secrets of others. Graven Ashe seeks to lead his army into war. Bleden Mark seeks to kill the strongest things around. And if he has to make something worth killing to pull that off then so be it. Stroth fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 22:52
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Stroth posted:I do think you may be giving him too much credit. I always got the feeling that all of your potential accomplishments are just a nice side effect of what he really wants. An Equal. A Challenge. Someone who can push him to his limits, that he might actually lose to. We know Mark is getting old and tired and wouldn’t mind being beaten. We also know he wants Kyros dead and is no longer capable of doing that himself, if he ever was. So it’s really a win-win situation for him. Him killing Cleopatra is almost certainly his worst-case scenario. It’d be interesting, given the situation, to see one of the rebelling Archons try to ally with Cleopatra against the other Archons and Kyros. Under the present circumstances, a lot of Archons will wind up dead, but if Nerat struck a deal with Sirin and Cleo they could kill the others and then defy Kyros. An inexperienced replacement for Kyros would be a good outcome for Nerat. Granted, they hate each other, but that never seems to bother Nerat anyway.
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Mar 21, 2021 00:36
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Stroth posted:I do think you may be giving him too much credit. I always got the feeling that all of your potential accomplishments are just a nice side effect of what he really wants. An Equal. A Challenge. Someone who can push him to his limits, that he might actually lose to. If that were true he would've gone after Cairn as soon as the Archon went rogue, because Mark makes it very clear that Cairn's strength, and the nature of what they are, is dangerous to fight. IMO the only way he wouldn't go after that challenge is if he knows he has an absolute 0% chance of winning, or because Tunon expressly forbid him from doing so in a way he can't just get around without being judged.
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Mar 21, 2021 00:49
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Act 2 Postmortem: This Was Never Going To Work This sort of analysis is the reason this LP is fantastic.
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Mar 21, 2021 01:22
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So this is probably just me being  but something that just occurred to me- is "Graven Ashe" supposed to be his actual name? I've been assuming it was a title of some kind but the discussion around Amelia made me think it's actually first name Graven family name Ashe.
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Mar 21, 2021 01:32
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Negative_Earth posted:This sort of analysis is the reason this LP is fantastic. Yeah, I really like this, TGEK. This is one of the lesser known Obsidian efforts, and you're doing a swell job showing off why that's kind of a shame. (That... DLC notwithstanding)
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Mar 21, 2021 01:42
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kvx687 posted:So this is probably just me being Graven is a nickname Kyros gave him, Ashe is his family name.
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Mar 21, 2021 01:50
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More like craven ashe, am I right guys?
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Mar 21, 2021 02:53
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Mans posted:I followed the scarlet path and was entirely loyal to The Voices and the absolutely awful gut feeling you have everytime you visit the voices and the...interesting changes you see on the headquarters really make it a brutal playthrough. The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah the Chorus path is basically "oh boy I hope you didn't get too attached to any of these side characters you've met!" Yeah I loved some of the writing in it as well as the way you get to characterise yourself in it. I enjoyed how (act 2 Chorus path spoilers) when you convince the Stone Stalker tribe matriarch to go to Nerat to negotiate, having seen what's happened to prisoners you've sent to Nerat, you just... you hope maybe it'll be different this time, because she's not a prisoner. And you can send them off by saying "Hey... be careful. OK?" You warned them this time. Maybe it'll be different. It isn't different. Also makes the boss fight really meaningful.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:26
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Narsham posted:It’d be interesting, given the situation, to see one of the rebelling Archons try to ally with Cleopatra against the other Archons and Kyros. Under the present circumstances, a lot of Archons will wind up dead, but if Nerat struck a deal with Sirin and Cleo they could kill the others and then defy Kyros. An inexperienced replacement for Kyros would be a good outcome for Nerat. Granted, they hate each other, but that never seems to bother Nerat anyway. This makes sense for Nerat but why the hell would Cleopatra or Sirin agree to it?
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Mar 21, 2021 05:32
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Hunt11 posted:This makes sense for Nerat but why the hell would Cleopatra or Sirin agree to it? Sirin LITERALLY instantly surrendered to us because she doesn't want to go back to Nerat. And we personally know what happens to people who have a private meeting with Nerat.
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Mar 21, 2021 07:33
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bewilderment posted:Yeah I loved some of the writing in it as well as the way you get to characterise yourself in it. I have half the feeling that the chorus path has a special side objective where you just feed Nerat enough minds to make him pop like an overfed tick.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:47
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(sorry for all the words) About Ashe being "stuck" against the Unbroken in a pointless war: Do note that one of the ways the Archons used to torment Ashe and make the northern rebellion fall was by killing all of his offspring and the surviving children either dying in combat or getting kidnapped. The Disfavored are stuck in a sort of Stalingrad because Ashe is using the legion for his own personal, selfish reasons. Note how the soldiers who got lost trying to save her are also considered the cream of the crop, the elite, the bravest. Hitler promoted von Paulus to Field Marshall immediately before his army was encircled. Anyone who dies in order to free his daughter (and also maybe defeat the Unbroken, he doesn't care) is a hero of the highest order. When I played the game for the first time, quick skipping all the "boring" dialog, I was attracted to the Disfavored because the Chorus was chaotic and messy while the Disfavored loved order, serenity, stoicism, and discipline. Without being exposed to a lot of his dirty secrets, this image can be hard to pierce through. We're not sure how the average Disfavored soldier thinks about their role, but Ashe's propaganda machine runs at an impressive pace, which is ironic since you realize how elusive, treacherous and untrustworthy he really is while Nerat, the Archen of Secrets, is very honest in what he is  TheGreatEvilKing posted:
On the other hand, the revolutionary French armies would jump on the field with barely anything in terms of supplies and were expected to survive on what they could find. This meant that by the time of Napoleon, French armies were lightning fast compared to the Austrians, Prussians or Russians, who depended on their supply trains but also turned the locals into fervent anti-French resistance, since even in allied or pacified land the French kept looting everything in their path. It's possible that the Disfavored go on campaign with similar supply trains. A reminder that maintenance of such a train can be made easier when you exterminate the local population, turn the survivors into slave laborers and use beastmen as beasts of burden until they expire. bewilderment posted:The bit about the Chorus trying to preserve more civilians is why I went with them in my first run, but yeah, they tell you that a lot more than actually showing it in game. You actually do save a lot of people and accept a lot of surrenders to the Chorus. What happens next is no longer your responsibility! bewilderment posted:Yeah I loved some of the writing in it as well as the way you get to characterise yourself in it. And the baby screaming without anyone caring also hit me hard. Donkringel posted:I have half the feeling that the chorus path has a special side objective where you just feed Nerat enough minds to make him pop like an overfed tick. Negative_Earth posted:This sort of analysis is the reason this LP is fantastic. I want to quote this a thousand times.
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Mar 21, 2021 19:37
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Donkringel posted:I have half the feeling that the chorus path has a special side objective where you just feed Nerat enough minds to make him pop like an overfed tick. Chorus ending spoiler: I don't think it's dependent on how many people you've fed to Nerat throughout the game but this kind of does happen. You can feed a party member to him at the very end instead of fighting him, and said party member ends up taking over as the primary personality because Nerat's mind has been so fragmented by all the people he's absorbed (this apparently only happens if the party member has high loyalty). Feeding Sirin to him is one of the most heinous things you can do in the entire game. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 20:13
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So I've been catching back up with the thread and considering some of the questions that have recently come up. A few questions about the Disfavored and the Scarlet Chorus have come up repeatedly. Let's start with the Disfavored, where the question "where are their supply lines" and "how can they afford to not recruit new members when they're on the move" have been brought up multiple times. I'll start by quoting this post of mine from a few months ago.JT Jag posted:One thing that might explain the Disfavoured's mediocrity in the Tiers is that, for most of their existence, they were an elite army specializing in defeating the armies of nations Kyros had not yet claimed in the field. Most of their existence has been striking from one battle to the next, gradually getting farther and farther away from their beloved homeland in the north. And Graven Ashe is a fairly young Archon--- based on the fact that some of our fellow Fatebinders knew of him personally from before he ascended to Archon, he's likely less than 100. The Disfavoured have been busy in that fairly short period of time, being one of the spearheads of Kyros' conquest. That leads to the question about recruiting. When I say that the Disfavored are hyper-specialized that runs from top to bottom. Graven Ashe's obsession with bloodlines means that every ancient family with ties to them likely has to keep track of their geneology. There must always be members of the Disfavored that have to stay behind in the North to ensure the safety of bloodlines. The reinforcements they gain over time are a trickle of individuals in families not at risk of going extinct that have come of age, but usually it is sufficient--- up until the occupation of the Tiers they have rarely been in situations where they lost many lives. This, of course, changed during the first conquest and Blade Grave, and has changed even more when they were forced into an occupying role which they were unfamiliar with. That leads me to the Scarlet Chorus. I believe that if the Disfavored's hyperspecialized role was as elite shocktroopers that served as the spearhead of major engagements, the Scarlet Chorus' main purpose isn't war at all. The LPer has mentioned, a few times, that the Scarlet Chorus' wave tactics are wasteful and result in actually valuable soldiers like their Blood Chanters dying in droves. My suggestion is that this is the point. The Scarlet Chorus' role is not to fight wars, but to be a terraforming tool, for lack of better words. Consider the job of the Fatebinders: it's intended to weed out the too smart, too strong and too ambitious, to allow the Empire to keep an eye on them. I suspect the Scarlet Chorus serves a similar role, but for the broader citizenry of the occupied territories. The Chorus is used to bring conquered areas under control, to teach new members of Kyros' empire the real rules an individual should follow if they want to survive. Power is what really matters, but there's a cost to seeking it. Attempt to grasp beyond your reach and you'll get your teeth kicked in, or worse. The Chorus is used to indoctrinate new lands, to break their spirit after their armies are already broken. Once they're finished and ready to move on to a new conquered territory, the people left in charge are the ones that have shown the best combination of initiative and slavish obedience. Even when Nerat brings his horde to bear against some new rebel kingdom, they've left their mark on the new territory and made it far more compatible with the culture of the rest of the Empire. So, when their most valuable soldiers end up dying, that's one less potential threat to the order of both Nerat and Kyros. The loss in combat capability doesn't ultimately matter.
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Mar 21, 2021 20:30
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Chorus ending spoiler: I don't think it's dependent on how many people you've fed to Nerat throughout the game but this kind of does happen. You can feed a party member to him at the very end instead of fighting him, and said party member ends up taking over as the primary personality because Nerat's mind has been so fragmented by all the people he's absorbed (this apparently only happens if the party member has high loyalty). Feeding Sirin to him is one of the most heinous things you can do in the entire game. Continuation of Chorus ending discussion (so, obvious spoiler): In a macabre twist of faith, this is possibly the best ending Verse can have.
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Mar 22, 2021 13:53
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Cleopatra Jones and the Odd DLC Quest Welcome back! Last time we rained fire down upon the servants of the Overlord and completely shattered the balance of power on Terratus. Today we're going to finish what the Scarlet Chorus started.  These are a little out of order as I had to restart the recording session after failing to talk to our buddy Bleden Mark. Apologies!  : In knowing why my armor clings to me, I think I began feeling it grow into me. Has it buried itself deeper within me, or do I imagine this? He sighs. Barik, why the gently caress would we do that?  : No, Ashe will bow to me... or he will perish.You actually can get Ashe to submit on the Disfavored route. Maybe we'll even see it! : Perish? I... I know that you possess a power that echoes the Overlord's...but to challenge the Archon of War... now that Kyros has lifted the peace between the Archons... He shakes his head roughly.That Edict broke more than the Scarlet Chorus, it seems. : That you can does not indicate that you should.Barik, the man literally ruined your life after getting all your friends killed to rescue a daughter who very much did not want to be rescued!  Barik! No! Snap out of it! TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
How to proceed with the quest?  Verse is up next.  Unfortunately, I forgot she had the helmet enabled. I turn it off in the next area, but the deed is done.  : I burn inside. When I dance, it's like I'm trying to let out the fire, to quench it in blood. Instead... I just end up stoking the flames. : I think I follow.Translation: Verse is trying to quench her anger with violence, and only making it worse. : I've always had such a strong connection to my Furies. That bond made me feel... I don't know exactly. Like part of something?: Now it feels like they're in me. They rise up when I dance, each time a little more restless.: When we were going after Krokus and Irissa, I could almost hear them, like they were whispering to me, tugging from somewhere deep. : The Voices of Nerat.The idea with Verse's quest is that she's secretly terrified of becoming a real monster. : Kyros' bloody balls, yes. The Voices of Nerat. : If you don't want to turn into him, don't be like him. : Force yourself to stay human.: What does that even mean? You cast an Edict of Kyros. Are you still human? Is Graven Ashe, or Tunon for that matter? Seems to me that it's not a choice you get to make. : What is it?: After we spoke to Essa, I slipped a scout some rings to keep an eye on the place and send word if anything out of the ordinary happened. She cracks her knuckles beneath her calloused palms.: Apparently there have been some strangers lurking about. I'd like to head back to River's Break and see if we can't grab one. Maybe dig a little knowledge out of him. : I'll make it a priority.: Thanks. Who knows? Maybe we'll dig up something we can use against the Archons. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Now we turn to Lantry. Lantry's quest is called "Annal Sects". I am not expecting anything good out of this, and I think it's telling no one in the thread voted to do his sidequest. Lantry is a cool character, but everything to do with that fake history was garbage.   : What's that you say, buxom nubile lasses with an interest in old men who know history? You need a definitive tractatus on the trials and tribulations of the Archon of the Tiers? Well you're in luck! : [Subterfuge 70] Are you sure history hasn't just edited or forgotten those who could rival the Overlord?This is a very good point, seeing as Kyros controls all of history and executes people for seeking the truth.  : Yes, but maybe a rival casts an Edict, Kyros kills the rival, takes credit for the events....: Well... as of now, I've seen with my own eyes that the Overlord is NOT unique in this regard... and I suppose you're all the evidence I need to throw suspicion on the record. : Happen to know when Kyros first cast an Edict?: Good question. In parts north, it's commonly held that Kyros' Edict of Dust was the first, but it was cast in the Year 11 - it was just the first Edict to ripple across the whole of Terratus. If you lived somewhere that used to have antelope, you probably think that's the first Edict of the Overlord. : Antelope? Is that an animal?: Yes, or it was, at least, until they were all wiped out by the Edict of Dust - or that's at best we've pieced it together from records. From what we've gathered from their skeletons, they were some sort of mute Beastman that ran on four legs. : Antelope are not like Beastwomen, she counters, flexing her claws once, twice, three times in annoyance. Now this is interesting. We can infer that Kills-in-Shadow is accurate here from what we know about antelope - they're prey herbivores that aren't sapient, whereas Lantry is comparing them to fictional Beastmen. Going off of that it's not hard to guess that Kyros is just taking credit for the Silverback tribe's achievements - after all, if the Overlord can wipe out entire species, how dare you stand against her? If the Silverback tribe can wipe out a species, perhaps they could fight Kyros. Calio is very clear that we should not listen to superstitions when she's trying to help us blend in. : Old ink mystic tells many strange, stupid tales. Thinks to know everything.Presumably the Shadowhunter tribe had an oral tradition that preserved this, while the Sages were literally digging through the wreckage left by Kyros. How distorted it is, we will never know.  : Also safe to assume Kyros will try to 'solve' me in some fashion.All of the 'loyal to the Overlord' options are added by the DLC for...reasons we'll get into. I'm not a fan.  : We'll find out soon enough. We should get going. Oh, dammit. : More bits of creative history?: Despite the madness of late, I've been finding time to read further.: Well, I've been uh, cleaning up the records, so to speak, and scouring the texts for more... creative changes. : You found a message? Explain.: Back in the day, as it were, she and I had a shorthand for communicating in code. Lexeme has many notes to herself written in some corners and... well, I can read her scribbles. I think the idea is that these are the last historical records that remain that Lantry can shape into something less terrible? It's really weird, because we have the Silent Archive - that contains everything the Sages ever wrote - and an Archon's lifespan to decipher it. Oh well! : You have a cottage? I thought all Sages lived in the Vellum Citadel.: Oh sure, but most of us elder Sages get persnickety and long for some solitude after decades cloistered with the others. Besides, I did field study, so I was rarely expected to be anywhere at any given time. Sirin, that's very rude! : That's all I need to hear. Let's go find it! I'm not in a hurry to do this one. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Anyway, it's time to talk to our main man Bleden Mark.   What's up?  : Fatebinder - no, Archon. Welcome back to Ashweald. You've been busy.: His eyes brighten with interest.: You cast an Edict and became an Archon of... of something different, indeed. You're not some wild talent breathing fire, pissing mercury, or transforming into an animal... you're tapping into the Overlord's vein of magic. Mark, I cannot remember the last time we used stealth in this LP.  Oh. Oh wow. This, incidentally, is the only way to get the Edict of Nightfall, and it's the second-to-last one.  : And what about me? Are you also wondering how to handle me? Huh. He did straight up say he was going to use us, after all. : That so? He's not wrong! He could have tried to kill us at any time to stop this madness, and yet he just gave us another Edict as a show of good faith. It's also the Edict he's personally immune to, because Bleden Mark is a smart bastard. : So level with me - what would convince you to swear fealty to me over Tunon? This is the only route where you don't fight Bleden Mark at the end of the game. I'm not throwing that away now. Don't worry, we will have plenty of opportunities to do the Bleden Mark battle in the next playthrough. : And what of Tunon?: If he won't acquiesce to you, that's your problem to solve. Perhaps with my help - when the time is right. This is serious enough that we don't get our customary exposition session. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
So, Bleden Mark is still getting what he wants out of this. He wants us to kill Ashe and Nerat because they're "festering problems", but for who? "Everyone" is a valid answer, but is he speaking for Kyros? Himself? Cleopatra's future supporters? One thing's for sure, they're isolated and alone without any friends. As for why Mark will fight us if we confront Tunon, he wants proof we can actually take on an Archon. No one likes Ashe and Nerat and they're going to die alone. Tunon - and the law - is a powerful opponent that virtually no Archon can take on. I mentioned in the postmortem that the law is extremely lax toward Archons - but if Tunon can get a conviction on an Archon, death is certain. We won't be seeing that this route.  Verse has more chatter about the Edict. : I saved your skin, didn't I?: Sure did. For now. Like I said, I'm not trying to prod you or suggest you made the wrong call. As someone who likes to stay discreet until she has the opening to strike a killing blow, I find your little public gesture of dominance..., well, quaint. Charming, in a dumb way.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 There was some question in the thread about Sirin's side quest. Well, here's the result! : Is something bothering you Sirin? You seem sad.  : You've made a breakthrough? Seems like that would be a good thing... : It's simply... not what I was hoping for, I suppose. No matter... She shakes her head. : That sounds like a pretty incredible thing to know about.: I guess? I mean, sure, it's something nobody else knows yet. Except maybe Kyros.: I'm certain that weaving my song into my own music will strengthen it... or at least let more of my power slip through this stupid hat. : Your voice will shake the Tiers.You can be a real dick to poor Sirin, geez.   TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 This upgrades Sirin's helmet to an artifact!  Ignore the sudden background change, it's from the previous deleted session.  Barik, meanwhile, is troubled about the Edict.  : This can only mean trouble for us. Kyros doesn't tolerate competition. : What do you suggest I do next? That's not helpful at all! : Enough for now. Let's be off.: Of course, Fatebinder. Barik bows stiffly.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 We get to Essa's house only to learn that it's been burned down.  : Careful, Verse. It could be a trap.: One with all the subtlety of a Beast in heat, maybe. Her hands slip closer to her weapons.  Click around...   : We'll find whoever did this.: Let's. I've got some questions that need answers.: Here's hoping these bastards don't want to talk. I really hope they don't want to talk. She pops her knuckles, nodding.: I can make them answer any questions you ask, Verse. All I have to do is ask nicely. Sirin smiles sweetly, though her eyes harbor a wicked gleam.: Stay out of it, Songbrat.  Basically you click all the magnifying glasses - one is that iron weapons were used to pry the door, the house was burned with magefire, there are tracks leading away, and the assailants fought each other showing it was the Scarlet Chorus. I'm summing this up in the interest of not transcribing it. Skipping ahead!  : Sages did this?: If you know of another organized society of magic users who like to control information, I'll happily look their way.That describes the Fatebinder Order to a tee. : We've got a burned farmstead and multiple fire wards set around it... that reeks of our missing fire mage Catorius.Earlier in the game posted:Krokus is a lying sack of crap and we killed him.  : Could Catorius have been conscripted?: We can always ask him when we find him, assuming I let him live long enough to form an answer. It's a metaphor for the DLC. : The Disfavored used to hold those walls, so that could go a ways toward explaining their arms being scattered about here. : [Leave] Let's find him.: Lead the way, boss.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 Fort Squander is incredibly tedious.  What's this?  That's... probably bad! It's like we unleashed a flood of crazy new ideas by overturning the world order, or something! Inquiring further leads us to this:  I guess we just... control Apex somehow? Sure.  I try to lure the Bane away.  The problem is that we can only lure it to the existing areas and screw over the Stonestalkers or the Unbroken or Lethian's Crossing. That kind of sucks, so I ask the Tunon gang for help.  Calio offered to join us anyway.  Tunon's not happy about this, but we're not quite to Wrath 1. Yet. On to Fort Boring!   The "scrubs" line sounds less like a ferocious Bronze Age berserker and more like a videogame playing DLC intern. As far as I can tell, it is an archaic insult referring to a talentless person that originated in America. Still... : Unless it's a trap. : Let's say you and I go bind ourselves some fates.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 The fortress, is, of course, full of scrubs. It's conveniently in a spiral centered on Catorius to waste our time with trash mobs. Let's skip to the main event, shall we?   : Verse. Archon. His eyes flicker to you, and he bows his head slightly. : [To Verse] I assume he's one of your sisters' killers?: None other. I've seen those smirking lips a thousand times behind my eyelids. I've put a lot of thought into how I'll go about cutting them off. Her tongue runs the length of her upper teeth. Jesus this is clunky. We don't need all these hand movements described, we can infer what is going on from the dialogue! : More to the matter at hand, however, I am one of the three survivors of the group that met your friend's Scarlet Fury patrol in open battle in Apex a few years ago.: You seem pretty damned matter-of-fact about it for someone whose remaining life is measured in hours.: So long?: You think I'm going to make it quick, kindling-cock? No. No, I'm going to savor this, nice and slow. She barks out a laugh.: Catorius wrings his staff with both hands and regards you with narrowed eyes. Per the wiki, Catorius here is always bugged to believe you spared Krokus. We killed him. : That wasn't my loving call. Verse's weapon appear[sic] in her hands.: Hold, Fury! Aren't you the slightest bit curious about why the man who killed your Fury friends holds a tent in the middle of a Kyros-forsaken Scarlet Chorus encampment? He holds out a flat, filthy palm. : [Athletics 70] Got something to say, Sage? Spill it before we spill you. : Simply put, I am a creature of the Voices of Nerat. For all his faults, he does care about Verse. : The Voices? What... what are you trying to say?: The Chorus took me and everyone in my village almost four years ago. My wife included. I think you'd like Marion, were she not wrapped up in all of this. She's broad of shoulders, muscled like a Beastwoman, her spirit full of oil and fire. He taps his staff thoughtfully.: Marion sounds like the name of no Choirman I ever met. The purpose of the Chorus name is to break down one's identity to better subsume them into the Chorus, so good on him I guess. : [Subterfuge 70] Let me guess - the Voices used her to control you. : So you cut a deal. Her upper lip curls back, revealing a sharp, yellowed canine.: I told them I'd do whatever they wanted, so long as they kept her out of their more... sacrificial operations. He lets loose another long sigh, shoulders sinking slightly as if under a growing burden. Tunon would have a field day!  I do like that the DLC gives us concrete confirmation that Nerat was sabotaging the suppression effort the entire time. : The Voices thought Verse and her sisters expendable.: Bullshit. Each Fury is worth two dozen conscripts! A sisterhood that dances together like ours? There's no more vicious force on the whole loving field of war!: I think you're right. Or something like right. We weren't supposed to kill you, and we weren't supposed to take you alive. The Voices wanted you to witness your squad's deaths. The Sage nods vigorously.: But you didn't kill us all. You took Geyser. Verse's words carry the chill of winter. : You expect us to believe Nerat cared enough about one of his own to purchase her back?: I'm not sure it matters what YOU believe...: You lie. Red Geyser - my sister - is dead. Mismatched eyes glare from beneath a lowered brow.: If so, she was killed after we left her with the Archon.: Which I suppose brings us to the present. The Voices left me with standing orders - if you ever figured out the truth of it, I was to bring you to them. So that's what happens next. He rubs the bridge of his nose.You know, the more I think about it, the less sense the party that ambushed Verse makes. Irissa was a resistance fighter, Krokus was apparently in league with Disfavored spies... I assume they all joined Nerat for some reason, but what a mess.  : [Subterfuge 40] Help us and we'll help you.  We...could break her out. Cleo has the personal firepower of the Edict, forbidden Oldwalls magic, and an entire country paying her taxes. I think we could make this work. : Then we kill the Archon of Secrets. : I can and I will. : What do you want, Verse? I trust you to make the right call.: Easiest choice I've ever made. I'm going to enjoy this dance, Catorius. For Red Geyser. Verse grins at Catorius. Dammit, Verse. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 So, Catorius has some powerful spells. This is the AoE confuse from Illusion, but he also has the Scorching Missiles meteor spell that Cleopatra loves so much.  I'm not gonna sugarcoat this. This fort is extremely boring. It's full of killable Chorus trash mobs and unexciting loot. I'm cutting out the escape because it's just an exercise in tedium.  Verse speaks for the player here when they're subjected to more Tyranny combat. Even with our turbomagic these guys are just boring rear end sacks of HP that do nothing and require a fair amount of grinding.  : You still with me, Verse?: Yeah. Way to yank me out of the moment, Binder. I was close to enjoying myself.: Lapsing into silence, Verse stares up into a sky still smeared with the smoke of the Burning Library, puts both hands on her back, just above her hips, and stretches, jutting her pelvis forward until her spine releases a series of satisfying snaps.: Nothing's simple in your wake, is it? With the Voices, I listened when I was supposed to listen, reported everything I heard, killed what he told me to kill. Black and white. Black and red, anyway. She smirks.: I guess it was always complicated, I just ignored the complexities. I can't operate solely on gut instinct anymore. My gut would see this whole drat peninsula burned to cinders, and then what? She massages her right eyebrow.: Terratus rewards strength. I didn't think I was strong enough to move in, well, influential circles. And that, I don't know. Makes me nervous. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Verse continues to doubt whether she's on the right path and whether she's becoming a monster. In her defense, Catorius did a ton of awful things to save his wife, she's hardly attacking the innocent. To complete the quest, we need to go back to the Mountain Spire.  This is what the Edict of Nightfall does, incidentally. I don't cast it because that's a fair chunk of our power bar, and we might need it later.   : Verse. : [Lore 75] It sounds like you're trying to justify your own tumultuous feelings. : She splays her fingers before her, apparently taking a vested interest in the grime beneath her nails.: It feels like all that's in front of me is a gorge so wide and so deep there's nothing to see but wide open air. She looks at you. : I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.: drat. Fatebinder, you're sounding more like me every day. I wonder if the Voices saw this coming when he tossed me on law dog detail. She releases a peal of laughter. : The Archon of Secrets will fall by my hand.: Your confidence inspires. It's positively loving infectious. She smirks.: The Voices has more years behind him than a person can rightly imagine. If anyone's ever dug up a way to cheat the void, it would be him. : How would he do that?At first I was tempted to write this quest off as the game going up its rear end with psychic mindbending crap.  Then I realized that the thing with the sisters and their echoes is just window dressing. : You have to keep control of yourself.Catorius, Irissa, and Krokus did what they did because the Voices wanted Verse to endure the trauma of losing her family, as he did. Earlier in the game posted: : Figure out who Verse is and stay Verse.The irony is that Verse worked her way up from the bottom, whereas Nerat was rewarded for selling out his family. This entire quest is just Nerat trying to bring Verse down to his level because he's a loser. : Now you're going to have me asking how I'm not myself. Don't try and turn me into a Sage. : We've got poo poo to do, right? Don't let me hold you up. And thanks, Fatebinder. Archon. Archbinder. Verse grins.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 I know people having been waiting this entire thread for this. We're going to go to Nerat's base and shove his face in.
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Mar 23, 2021 08:44
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Cleopatra Jones and the Failed Archon Welcome to Cacophony! It's a barren wasteland full of trash mobs.  This is one of only two mandatory packs you have to fight.  The other is here. Once you kill them the bridge drops and you can fight Nerat. These guys silence the mages for a bit, but we're in no real danger aside from boredom. Moving on to the interesting stuff!  Cleo gets probably her last level.  Long time no see!   : We love to see an agent of the court shatter their bonds and declare their sovereignty, but you would have been better served wearing red. The gangs need more talent like yours. At least we can make an example of you that others will remember.I recommend playing this part for the voice acting alone.  See, Nerat, when you say poo poo like this you reveal you're a sick gently caress no one actually wants to work with, which is why you are fighting two Archons, your designated successor, and Barik by yourself.  : What are you saying, Verse?: I'm saying that he pointed us at Krokus, he led us to Fort Squander, and that he wanted me to learn what I learned there. She counts her points off on her fingers.Verse is probably as big a threat as we are, as Verse formed an efficient fighting unit of Scarlet Furies based not on fear but on comradery and mutual respect. They would have been an amazing tool if Nerat was smart enough to use them right, but he values controlling the horde more.  Then his plan is stupid. : You presume we possess a more than passing interest in this trumped-up barrister. He taps his scepter against his bronze beard.: Whatever our dear Adjudicator lacks for, his rationality has never been in question. How were we to know that one of Tunon's students would engage in such ridiculous folly?: Your paranoia delights us, however. A stint in infiltration has complicated you delectably.This is all DLC stuff. It just goes to show that Nerat is a petty, small-minded bastard. : You think I didn't work out your little plot? That I didn't fathom why my sisters got all mixed up inside of me?  : Hesitation? This isn't the Verse I know.: I don't waste a lot of time worrying about consequences, but this might be our last chance to think about what exactly we're about to do.: Listen to her, Fatebinder. She shows wisdom beyond her years.  : If you're up to it, then I'm with you. I've killed my share of gang bosses, and it doesn't take a genius to know when a leader is flagging and needs to be replaced. No offense, Archon. She glances at the Voices of Nerat and frowns. : Couched in its wreath of green flames, the Archon of Secrets' bronze head turns to you. : You'd bow to me in exchange for Verse? I have no idea how Nerat expects this to work. Kyros wants him dead and opened the game signing his death warrant. Does he expect to just return to the Northern Empire and triumphantly explain that, like, he totally failed, but he's got a bunch of worthless trash conscripts that are ready to not fight the Archon of Spires' insurrection? It's more evidence that he's not nearly at good at planning as he thinks he is. Mark pulled a scam on everyone and Tunon thinks he's loyal. Nerat is a dumb idiot leaving breadcrumbs everywhere who is tolerated because the Chorus is moderately useful. : What do you intend to do with her? So this is changed by Verse's DLC quest. If you didn't do the quest, you have to fight Nerat. If you did do the quest, you get this dialog where Nerat offers to withdraw in exchange for Verse.  This is the game's way of telling you that Verse is loyal enough to take over the Nerat hivemind. It's...strange, because we've spent the entire quest of Verse realizing she doesn't want to be a monster like Nerat and that she has to think for herself, and here she's gladly offering to sacrifice herself and become the monster she hates because we asked her to. : There's no version of this conversation in which I give you Verse.The next Fatebinder is going to be much crueler, trust me.  : Shall we end his miserable experience together, Verse?: Sounds like a plan to me, boss. I'll sleep a lot better knowing that there's one less parasite in the world.: Our little spy is right about one thing, you know. You're going to die screaming, but your awareness will live for eternity, suffering within our magnificence.: Attend to us, darlings! There is more than one way to skin a Fatebinder, and we will show you as many as possible.: The Voices of Nerat readies to attack. The game helpfully walks us into an attack position while Nerat summons the entire Chorus.  The Chorus members start cheering and yelling, because how often do you get to see three Archons throw down?  Nerat starts with a move called Awaken Power. I have no idea what it does, because if we're being honest, he's a piss-easy boss fight.  If you wanted confirmation Catorius was on the level, here you go - Nerat ate Red Geyser. The Archons are all immune to disabling statuses, but they're not immune to Frost's stupidly high slow or Magefire, so you should keep that up at all times.  He can shoot this volley of flaming arrows that I legitimately don't care about, because the DoT isn't fast enough to bring down a character and I have tons of health potions slotted along with the entire team having lifesteal magic.  The Voices of Nerat's big gimmick is that he can use Fragmented Mind to summon personality aspects that we sent him. Kirim here is a School of Wild Wrath member from us giving him Nerat during Conquest. Oops!  Unfortunately for Nerat, his echoes are vulnerable to all our chain CCs and we lose nothing by targeting them as our spells bounce between targets.  That's it! Look, I would appreciate the option to make Verse become the monster more if Nerat were actually threatening. It would be like original Vampyr where the moral dilemma was whether to eat people to become stronger to fight the plague demon thing.  Nerat can teleport. He proves he's an idiot by teleporting next to his summon against foes who have demonstrated a love of AoEs. Especially Sirin. Sirin is motivated to waste his rear end. He does have a paralysis wave, but I grabbed Cleo an AoE status clear from her leadership tree, so no one cares.  Seriously, we're just wailing on Nerat here while his own army cheers us on.  Fittingly, Sirin has Nerat ride the lightning.  As we talked poor Pelox Florian into surrendering himself to Nerat earlier, Nerat can call on him now.  It doesn't help.  Nerat continues his one way trip to the dumpster while Florian takes his sweet time wandering over.  The girls stun him with lightning spells that bounce to Nerat next. If you notice, we got the quest completion message because Nerat is loving dead.  : Say what you would, creature.: Whatever the thoughtless rabble may whisper about this moment, don't delude yourself into thinking you are powerful, that you matter, or that someone out there isn't greater still.Nerat is projecting so hard I'm expecting to see "Personality Fragment: Sigmund Freud" pop up on the screen.  This is all blatantly false. Bleden Mark told us Nerat was a nobleman - that is not nothing, especially in an Iron Age society like this one! Nerat is trying one last desperate gaslight because he doesn't want to accept the reality that Cleopatra - and Sirin! - pushed his face in. No, perhaps Nerat was not always a flaming crazy multiple-personality man, but he always was a monster when he sold out his own family to be tortured to death. Cleopatra has done awful things in the service of Kyros, but throughout the game the Fatebinder is given the opportunity to show a limited amount of compassion. Ultimately when free to make the choice, she saved Amelia's daughter. Nerat would not do the same. : I could never become like you.: Couldn't you? How much you've changed since this war began... imagine if you subjected that same pressure to centuries of time. We don't have to wonder, but you do! You have all the time in the world! This is the defining moment of Nerat's death right here - he immolates himself laughing because he's so satisfied that he's mentally sabotaged Cleopatra. He died as he lived, a stupid egotistical rear end in a top hat too obsessed with proving his own superiority to realize he was shooting himself in the balls.  There's a nifty animation of Nerat exploding into flame that I completely fail to capture in screenshots. : Is he truly dead? Can I hope that the monster that tormented me will never torment another?Sirin, you fried his rear end. : Good riddance, rear end in a top hat. Shouldn't have screwed with me and my sisters. She kicks the smoldering pile of ashen rags.: Is that thing finally dead? I'm actually asking, because it was difficult enough to tell that he was alive. The Chorusmen continue clapping and cheering.  Then they realize that no one is paying them any more and they have no real loyalty so they just... go home. Look at the minimap. There are no more enemies in Cacophony. The Scarlet Chorus, as an organization, is destroyed. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 Having killed Nerat, we loot his stuff.  We even get his artifact scepter that's implied to contain the tortured souls of Nerat's family.  Nerat even left us this elixir of quickness! Thanks, Nerat! Anyway, I suspect I owe the thread a bit more on Nerat's death. Nerat likes to talk about how he made it from nothing, but that's absolutely untrue. Nerat was a noble who was rewarded for betraying his family to Kyros. I haven't made it through the Chorus path due to usually slamming "betray alliance" every time I try, but my guess is that the reward for his betrayal made him start a lot higher up the totem pole than someone like Verse who started as a lowly conscript. Nerat is completely useless for anything except using his power to bully people, and his value - as can be seen from his artifacts - is that he has absolutely no moral compass that would inhibit him from carrying out even the most vile of Kyros' orders. What he lacks in competence he makes up for with a ruthless sadism and an intimate knowledge of how to use his power to bully others - something that fails him utterly when confronted by an equal like Cleopatra, and manifests itself as a compulsion to show how superior he is to others even in situations where it's actively detrimental, such as when he taunts Graven Ashe over murdering Brennix, Ashe's son. The Voices' record of failure isn't even new, the Kyrosians had to offer Graven Ashe amnesty because the Scarlet Chorus was having so much trouble beating an incompetent general who marches legions of ironclad warriors into a magically deadly thunderstorm. Kyros can safely keep him around until he's a liability, and because he's such a monster eliminating him is actually better for pacifying the empire. Machiavelli, The Prince posted:He, therefore, judged it necessary to give them a good government in order to make them peaceful and obedient to his rule. For this purpose he appointed Messer Remiro d' Orco, a cruel and able man, to whom he gave the fullest authority. This man, in a short time, was highly successful in rendering the country orderly and united, whereupon the duke, not deeming such excessive authority expedient, lest it should become hateful, appointed a civil court of justice in the middle of the province under an excellent president, to which each city appointed its own advocate. And as he knew that the harshness of the past had engendered some amount of hatred, in order to purge the minds of the people and to win them over completely, he resolved to show that if any cruelty had taken place it was not by his orders, but through the harsh disposition of his minister. And taking him on some pretext, he had him placed one morning in the public square at Cesena, cut in half, with a piece of wood and blood-stained knife by his side. The ferocity of this spectacle caused the people both satisfaction and amazement. Just look at the reactions of our party members. They're all glad Nerat is dead, and tellingly, none of the Chorus members go and enlist in Kyros' armies or anything. Nerat failed so utterly at creating genuine loyalty that his own lieutenants stood by and literally cheered as he burned to death. I suspect this was Kyros' plan all along with Graven Ashe and Nerat. They're both absolutely terrible at being an occupying force, so Kyros can give the Tiers to Tunon or somebody and people will be grateful for Tunon's "justice" instead of being a sex slave or Mad Max gladiator. As far as the stuff he said to Cleo, it's just Captain Hook from Peter Pan gleefully yelling "Bad Form" as he is killed by a literal child. He doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions and he doesn't want to admit Cleopatra is stronger than him, so he resorts to sad gaslighting which fails upon his death. Next time: We beat the ever loving poo poo out of Graven Ashe.
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Mar 23, 2021 09:43
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: WOOOOO!
drat, they thought I was going to permanently sacrifice a party member to skip this easy boss fight so I could maybe gain the services of a bunch of untrustworthy deviants?
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Wait, that is Verse's DLC quest? What the everloving gently caress was wrong with the team working on that?
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Mar 23, 2021 10:00
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Wait, that is Verse's DLC quest? What the everloving gently caress was wrong with the team working on that? It's the same team that brought us Bastards Wound, not sure what's so surprising.
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Mar 23, 2021 10:04
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That Verse sidequest outcome (specifically, that where being loyal allows her to absorb the monster) seems to me pretty thematically and tonally at odds with her character development overall. Did they even have the DLC writers talk to the original ones, maybe have them read the script first? That must've been quite the poo poo deadline they were given Alternatively, it seems to me like some of the DLC's effort is to offer a Mass Effect style option of 'having your cake and eating it too' to difficult moral and character dilemmas, such as with the Loyalist options and now this quest resolution apparently? Which ends up undermining the rest of the script pretty hard. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 10:37
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The part where all the Chorus members just calmly walk home is really funny to me. It's such a weird note to end the Chorus on. So I went and started up Tyranny for the first time finally. Largely I wanted to see the game's reactivity for myself. Currently in Ch 1 and working on the Rebel path. A few things - I apparently cannot stop pissing off Barik, he's at loyalty 0 fear 3 at the moment, it's kind of hilarious. I'm not even doing it on purpose. In the course of pissing him off, you get really interesting early context that Verse/Barik care for each other as Verse is actually concerned for him when I pushed him into utter seething anger. - Being the 'Queenslayer' is really hilarious. In a lot of dialogues, the rebels do not know what to make of me. (I chose a Pit Fighter background, and provoking her into a duel seemed way too in character). With the dude taking the Disfavored captain hostage, I fixed the situation by going 'Hey I'm the Queenslayer' and him getting so pissed off he tried charging me... and got stabbed to poo poo. Both Disfavored/Chorus loved that, too. I'm really enjoying how the dialogue differs so far.
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Mar 23, 2021 11:08
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If you do the rebel quest up until you meet the leaders and then betray the truce and attack them, Barik goes "ohh, this was your plan all along" and immediately has his Fear drop back to 0 and gets like 4 full levels of Loyalty. It's a pretty solid use of the like/dislike mechanic I've only seen in Tyranny and it's solid.
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Mar 23, 2021 11:21
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On paper, I like the idea of remaining loyal to Kyros. The way it was implemented... Eh. I can agree on not being a fan. I've a few words for the end of this run, but for now I just don't think there was enough groundwork set before this point. Or during. Or after. Cough. Not enough opportunities to push for "Genuine Kyros Loyalist" throughout paired with the ones we do have not feeling right if that makes any sense. Haven't said much during this LP, but I've a few words for when the time comes around. Other than that: -Lantry does have a reason to go find the tomes, even with the Silent Archive. In fact, a prime example is in this very update. Antelopes posted:
-Finding records external to what the sages already possess, then, is an opportunity to get closer to what actually happened. -Or at least to find a history that isn't Kyros's or the work of sages regurgitating eachothers texts. -Catorius doesn't particularly match their description. -Perhaps an aura of smoke around their model? -A few flames in the vicinity? -Anything other than a model that may as well be generic? No? hm. ------------ As some wild speculation: What if Kyros isn't an archon (that is, their edicts aren't innate to them), but a particularly clever/powerful mage that figured out the archon of edicts sigil? I think either Lantry or one of the various NPC's speculated that it is theoretically possible to use the sigils of archons that haven't even been born yet, much less come into their own gift. (With the caveat it would be very difficult to do so, requiring a great deal of luck) Now, If my memory isn't failing me, I also recall someone mentioning/speculating that during the earliest days of Kyros's empire (even pre-dating the official year 0) that edicts and/or magic of similar strength was being hucked about and that it was a rather bad time to be living in. (Though not whose telling of history it was.) If Kyros was just a mage that figured out the glyph of edicts, whose to say others couldn't figure it out as well? Or that Kyros disposed of anyone else at the time who figured it out, bringing about the first "Kyros's Peace"? E: Apparently I missed the entire second half of the update. Mea culpa on that'un. More thoughts: -Not much to add for the second half. Nerat went down easier than I remembered, though may have come down to not using spells as much. -I don't think Nerat is entirely lying. He says the important part right there: "Did you imagine we were always flames, voices and secrets?" -If nothing else is taken away from this, how people know us stands to affect us greatly as the years go on. -Probably not in becoming a glowing green flame impersonating the human form, but the point stands. -In hindsight, I wonder if that had a say in how Cairn or the other archons ended up the way they are. Or were. Arcanuse fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 11:23
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I feel that sometimes people forget that in Tyranny, being a selfish, power-hungry bastard who will gladly throw anyone under the bus for your own benefit, and glorifying your past and censoring your vices, is the norm, not a bug.
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Mar 23, 2021 12:28
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In the end, what does being a Kyros loyalist even mean at this point? Cleo's never met her, there's no personal loyalty at stake. Kyros' empire gave Cleo her initial authority, but it's quite clear now that Cleo is her own authority and has her own power base. Kyros perhaps gives her a thin veneer of legitimacy, but at this point any question of Cleo's legitimacy can be answered with 'because I can cast Edicts.' The entire course of the game has been about showing how Kyros' rule of law is anything but and 'Kyros' Peace' is a bill of goods. Cleo has no reason whatsoever to feel the slightest concept of loyalty to Kyros, and loyalty in this setting sure as hell doesn't go top down. Everyone in the Tiers has, at this point, a more localized sense of loyalty - to one of the Archons or other local powers. And we just saw how fragile that loyalty can be.
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Mar 23, 2021 13:27
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Cythereal posted:In the end, what does being a Kyros loyalist even mean at this point? Mh-hm. There's the big question. What is being loyal to Kyros? If the game has a specific definition beyond vague "loyal, probably? don't worry about it" I haven't seen it. We've seen enough to conclude being a loyalist isn't following Kyros's laws unwaveringly, there's been plenty of evidence of that by now. But not a great deal of ideas for what is a Kyros Loyalist. So, we guess. For want of knowing more, being a Kyros Loyalist in Tyranny is guessing what Kyros actually wants out of this mess and working to bring that about. (Or, inversely, guessing+doing what Kyros doesn't want if you want to get at Kyros instead.) One "loyalist" might think Kyros wants the tiers conquered in Kyros's name, another might think Kyros wants a perpetual meatgrinder for problem-archons. Both of which see themselves as loyal but neither know if what they're doing is what Kyros actually wants. So which one (if either) is actually loyal?  Who knows, I certainly don't. As for reasons to be loyal, yeah there isn't much. Or any, really. Vaguely buying into Kyros's empire being a thing that should continue is about it. In fairness I think this one can be pinned on loyalist options being an afterthought here, but that doesn't actually give us a reason to work with, however poor it might be.
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Mar 23, 2021 17:13
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Cythereal posted:Cleo has no reason whatsoever to feel the slightest concept of loyalty to Kyros, and loyalty in this setting sure as hell doesn't go top down. I'd imagine that being raised and trained as a Fatebinder involves a lot of propaganda hitting you non-stop. See: hardcore right-wingers who raise their kids as such and send them off to Liberty University or some other propaganda-education hell hole and who buy into it all because they've been living and breathing it since they were born.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:41
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Yeah the thing is that "what has Kyros done for me lately" isn't even going to be the way people are thinking about it, because in the Tyranny setting "Kyros" = "God". Like people swear by Kyros' name on things. "Loyalty" is probably not even the right word for it, it's more like "Devotion". The people lower down are more likely to be devoted to Kyros simply because they are much more removed from the idea of Kyros as an actual person. Cleo is in a position to have been elevated up to a level where she is starting to realize that Kyros is just mortal and probably has some major questions as to how he/she has been running things, but it's a very recent development for her so it wouldn't be entirely crazy that she might feel conflicted about whether or not to remain loyal to the empire, despite all the reasons that have been given to her not to be. Of course, the other way to see it is that most people are raised in a propaganda heavy environment and it would be safe to assume the same was true for Cleo, but she was also personally trained by Bleden Mark, who is probably going to be giving a much more "unvarnished" view of the world and the empire to his pupils than the education most people would be getting. So Cleo is a bit more primed to question things than the average person might be.
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Mar 23, 2021 21:52
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"Maybe don't eat people" is such a tempting option, I'm amazed you didn't take it.barik posted:Is that thing finally dead? I'm actually asking, because it was difficult enough to tell that he was alive. drat, son.
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Mar 24, 2021 00:10
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I played a warrior in my first playthrough and I hated Nerat so much that I wanted to equip a baseball bat before that fight so I could feel the satisfaction of beating him to death. I just hated that gently caress from the first instant I saw him.
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Mar 24, 2021 03:31
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FoolyCharged posted:"Maybe don't eat people" is such a tempting option, I'm amazed you didn't take it.
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Mar 24, 2021 03:32
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