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Yossarian-22 posted:china actually has lots of strikes and their strikers tend to get away with a lot more than ours do iirc, probably thanks at least in part to the lighter touch that their carceral system uses. as dead gay comedy forums points out, "speedrunning capitalism" is precisely what academic western marxists observe and find objectionable. in fact i use the phrase specifically to dodge the question of whether china is "really" socialist and to appease anti-china leftists, since it's plain to both detractors and supporters that capitalist accumulation is ongoing and supported (albeit tightly controlled by) the state and communist party i'm still not sure of what you're objecting to or think i'm saying, however. do you agree or disagree that an unambiguously socialist state, one in which production for profit was no longer ongoing (this obviously does not describe china) there might still be strikes and government-backed strike-breaking? it seems to me to be a necessary consequence of workers' democracy, that is, the rule of the many over the few albeit mediated by some sort of legal norms
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Mar 20, 2021 08:23
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i think the main thing to know about Communism, is that there are like 2 places where communism seems to be predominant, and that is China and Vietnam. The US and other western countries could learn from this, but we choose not to. The obvious choice is to make allies with the Chinese Communists, because they are about to overtake the US in every capacitary.
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Mar 20, 2021 08:33
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Do You Want Chips?
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Mar 20, 2021 08:34
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMr8rqenl4o
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Mar 20, 2021 08:36
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Ferrinus posted:as dead gay comedy forums points out, "speedrunning capitalism" is precisely what academic western marxists observe and find objectionable. in fact i use the phrase specifically to dodge the question of whether china is "really" socialist and to appease anti-china leftists, since it's plain to both detractors and supporters that capitalist accumulation is ongoing and supported (albeit tightly controlled by) the state and communist party I don't disagree, but my point is that China's suppression of strikes, aggressive capitalist accumulation, etc. means it should be subject to critique from a leftist pov, and that this doesn't have to be synonymous with being a Westerner or being a liberal. Granted, although I tend to be more sympathetic to ultras than tankies I also think it's idiotic to deny the unprecedented amount of progress that China has made over the past 50 or 60 years and that much of this can be attributed to having a communist party in charge which has resisted western neoliberalism https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1372984215525064705?s=20 Anyway I'm going in circles at this point but any recs would be cool. Also I want to know a lot more about modern China in general so I'm open to pretty much anything
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Mar 20, 2021 08:50
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THS posted:i think the main thing to know about Communism, is that there are like 2 places where communism seems to be predominant, and that is China and Vietnam. The US and other western countries could learn from this, but we choose not to. The obvious choice is to make allies with the Chinese Communists, because they are about to overtake the US in every capacitary. by that conjecture, you'd think someone would have coughed up some Vietnamese critique of Chinese communism by this point
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Mar 20, 2021 08:54
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Victory Position posted:by that conjecture, you'd think someone would have coughed up some Vietnamese critique of Chinese communism by this point They mostly complain about how china keeps invading them or their maritime zones.
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Mar 20, 2021 11:25
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Yossarian-22 posted:I don't disagree, but my point is that China's suppression of strikes, aggressive capitalist accumulation, etc. means it should be subject to critique from a leftist pov, and that this doesn't have to be synonymous with being a Westerner or being a liberal. Granted, although I tend to be more sympathetic to ultras than tankies I also think it's idiotic to deny the unprecedented amount of progress that China has made over the past 50 or 60 years and that much of this can be attributed to having a communist party in charge which has resisted western neoliberalism https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1372984215525064705?s=20 since china's relying on capital investment and accumulation, making these critiques is like shooting fish in a barrel. the problem is that people don't acknowledge the barrel for the purpose of spinning grand geopolitical narratives, so for instance the suppression of a particular strike becomes a sinister harbinger of a dark agenda rather than an obvious and unavoidable consequence of large-scale development. it's legitimate to backseat drive to a degree and be like well they didn't have to hit that strike so hard, this liberalization push could have left the social safety net slightly more intact, that special economic zone could have had stronger labor protections, etc, but this becomes a sort of empty business when you understand that you're talking about the results of struggles and negotiations within the state as opposed to signs and wonders marking china's true essential nature anyway i like qiao collective but there's a heap of online journals that do exactly what i'm griping about and may be more to your taste like chuang, china labor bulletin, critical china scholars, etc. with possible to obvious connections to the NED. i've used their numbers or reports before so it's not like they're strictly packs of lies or w/e. i don't know good books offhand except the little red one Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 12:47
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I just want them to be nicer to the proletariat 
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Mar 20, 2021 16:41
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Mr. Lobe posted:I dislike it when the machine intelligences are able to classify me as a communist, feels like the sword of damocles hanging over our heads, just a matter of time before someone goes and cuts that thread If you become an internet famous socialist or adjacent you will probably be jakarta'd by the khive. 
AnimeIsTrash fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 17:21
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socialism is when the communist party exploits the workers
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Mar 20, 2021 17:23
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indigi posted:I just want them to be nicer to the proletariat yeah the argument against Chinese organization in terms of labor is one of the most expressive criticisms I know against their proposition. They can afford a industrial production scale through socialist rationalization of labor in levels unseen in human history, as they do have the manpower to organize 4 shifts of different workers x 6 hours of labor power (to fill a day-unit of economic activity). Hell, they could probably do the golden ratio of 6 shifts x 4 hours imagined by the economic-minded socialist thinkers, they have the people to do so
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Mar 20, 2021 17:40
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apropos to nothing posted:socialism is when the communist party exploits the workers -kozlovski, witheringly sarcastic
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Mar 20, 2021 18:24
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lol at denmark's 5km of HSR also what was going on in japan when they were only adding 1km at a time? maybe station expansions
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Mar 20, 2021 19:16
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namesake posted:
Because I assure you the USSR was very interested in creating a domestic consumer base to increase consumption. quote:That's the mechanism of capitalist profit which I hope you agree is a vital component of capitalism so getting all handwavey about how international strategic competition means there's a mystical force compelling the state to follow the same rules as a capitalist firm just doesn't make sense. It's not magical at all and I'm struggling to see how you arrived at that conclusion. The USSR was forced by circumstance to exist in a world dominated by capitalist states that sought it's destruction. As such the party had to ensure the USSR developed to a sufficient extent to resist the gravity of the stronger capitalist powers. Therefore something resembling the role of a capitalist was required to reinvest surplus value back into the economy at scales sufficient to keep a pace with the growth of capitalist economies There's no magic here, merely the rational interest of the state to sustain itself. The most obvious example of this was Nazi Germany necessitating quick industrialization (and thus a period of heightened exploitation of the proletariat). The latter half of the USSRs existence was dominated by the reality of the cold war and the twin necessities of military build up and growth of an internal consumer base. The latter of which suffered at the expense of the former and eventually resulted in the USSR entering the economic quagmire that allowed the US to exploit the internal contradictions of the soviet system resulting in it's breakup.
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Mar 20, 2021 19:29
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i'm with namesake regarding the USSR's mode of production - just because a surplus is generated, appropriated, and reinvested doesn't mean capitalism is going on and that whoever or whatever is deciding where the surplus goes is equivalent to one big capitalist. a little family living in a cottage in the woods would also engage in the division of labor, generate value in excess of the value of their collective-labor power, and then divide that surplus up between personal consumption, enhanced tools, whatever else. capitalism requires certain more specific relations between the laborer and the capitalist and also between different capitalists, whose competition is what drives down the values of commodities and increases productivity and so on. soviet five year plans were drawn up on the basis of use-value, not exchange-value, except insofar as they wanted to be able to sell some of their products on the world market (but in that case it was like the entire state is engaging in giant-sized, global C-M-C) i guess china isn't taking such a different tack from the USSR that the two are mutually unintelligible, but it's more like china started the NEP, stuck with it, and never alienated the west so much that they had to stop buying tractors from overseas and gear shift into pure autarky. this gives them a much easier time with development and a much lower threat of foreign invasion but on the other hand means they have to subject themselves to capitalist discipline the same way that a nice, well-meaning, socialist co-op would have to if it just established itself somewhere inside the western economy Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 20:25
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Ferrinus posted:i'm with namesake regarding the USSR's mode of production - just because a surplus is generated, appropriated, and reinvested doesn't mean capitalism is going on and that whoever or whatever is deciding where the surplus goes is equivalent to one big capitalist. a little family living in a cottage in the woods would also engage in the division of labor, generate value in excess of the value of their collective-labor power, and then divide that surplus up between personal consumption, enhanced tools, whatever else. capitalism requires certain more specific relations between the laborer and the capitalist and also between different capitalists, whose competition is what drives down the values of commodities and increases productivity and so on. soviet five year plans were drawn up on the basis of use-value, not exchange-value, except insofar as they wanted to be able to sell some of their value on the world market (but in that case it was like the entire state is engaging in giant-sized, global C-M-C) I think both the state socialist country and socialist coop have the same problem of living within capitalism, thus you still have the appropriation of surplus, wage labor, and commodity exchange. The problem with capitalism isn't "capitalists" but global capital itself. This means islands of socialism are doomed to adopt more and more of a capitalist mode of production unless they can threaten global capital itself and not just the interests of a particular country's bourgeoisie The problem is people make this into an aha thing and a moral issue and try to figure out how to do socialism "right" without taking seriously the insane struggle necessary to overthrow a global system
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Mar 20, 2021 20:35
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Yossarian-22 posted:I think both the state socialist country and socialist coop have the same problem of living within capitalism, thus you still have the appropriation of surplus, wage labor, and commodity exchange. The problem with capitalism isn't "capitalists" but global capital itself. This means islands of socialism are doomed to adopt more and more of a capitalist mode of production unless they can threaten global capital itself and not just the interests of a particular country's bourgeoisie yeah absolutely. like the ussr was not concerned with s/(c+v) whatsoever, but it needed certain use-values (tanks, for instance) as fast as it could possibly make them and was therefore compelled to work at a pace as or even more relentless than one might expect capitalist discipline to impose. the fact that they managed it is more a testament to the heroic resolve of the soviet people than to the state's management techniques or coercive power, IMO then of course after ww2 is won they still can't relax per se because the cold war's on. ultimately, no one can to pick up a slightly earlier topic, this isn't to say that it's flatly impossible for the chinese workday to be even a second shorter because the current regime has been carefully optimized, or something. it's just, it's easy for the ccp to do things that both socialists and capitalists want, but hard for it to do things that socialists want but capitalists don't want, because the capitalists have serious table stakes because of the world economy
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Mar 20, 2021 20:51
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Dreddout posted:It's not magical at all and I'm struggling to see how you arrived at that conclusion. Because I don't accept the inevitability of falling back into a capitalist form of exploitation when there's been a revolution explicitly against that. The socialist state must continue to exist against the rest of the capitalist world but what does that actually require of them? They must be able to deter military incusion and maintain internal political integrity. Ideally they'll also be developing the economic and social base towards socialism but that's not actually a necessity for them to keep existing (although it is to keep supporting them as socialists). I'm just not getting the leap between acknowledging this and saying that whatever methods are used in practice they must be capitalist to keep up with the capitalist world. You don't have private property, you don't have labour markets which establish their own wage rates, you don't have end commodity markets where private entities realise profit for anything except for foreign sales, it's just missing all the components of a system that I'd look for when I'm trying to see if this is operating according to capitalist logic. Yes there's exploitation and extraction of a surplus but that's a feature of class society in general. It might seem a little heretical to posit that there's some other potential class structures possible in a 'after capitalist but not socialist way' but I'm okay with that.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:14
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Ferrinus posted:to pick up a slightly earlier topic, this isn't to say that it's flatly impossible for the chinese workday to be even a second shorter because the current regime has been carefully optimized, or something. it's just, it's easy for the ccp to do things that both socialists and capitalists want, but hard for it to do things that socialists want but capitalists don't want, because the capitalists have serious table stakes because of the world economy this is a great point, and an unfortunate reality
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Mar 20, 2021 21:25
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indigi posted:this is a great point, and an unfortunate reality because it always comes back to the thing that was one of Lenin's greatest insights, imho: what is to be done?
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Mar 20, 2021 22:30
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we give that guy a lot of credit for standing in the middle of the room and saying "idk what do you wanna do?"
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Mar 21, 2021 00:18
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indigi posted:this is a great point, and an unfortunate reality happily, it is also hard for capitalists to do things the socialists don't want them to do, like flee the country with billions in holdings or idly destroy the environment. what it's going to look like when capitalists and socialists can't even find the thinnest veneer of common cause is anyone's guess
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Mar 21, 2021 00:23
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Ferrinus posted:flee the country with billions in holdings or idly destroy the environment bitcoin is thriving tbf and does both of these things effectively
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Mar 21, 2021 00:27
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don't make me tap the title of the eurasia thread
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Mar 21, 2021 00:34
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Larry Parrish posted:It sucks rear end that this forum occasionally has good posting but they put the worst offenders in the world when it comes to being super uncritical in charge lol. And how does this forum have 45 mods and IKs and I've only ever seen like 4 post? Even if you're a mega thread dipshit who needs to gently caress off like smarxist you think they'd post somewhere I'd see it eventually, right? It's the worst mods since the GBS era where they had stars such as the mod who got horny sniffing women's hair on the bus and was probably a pedophile, the other ones that were pedophiles etc. So using my power of deductive reasoning I can only assume that the CSPAM mods are also pedophiles, since they are equally unsociable and too weird to live in a free society Cyrano4747 posted:I can't believe I'm actually trying to logically think this through in my head but here we go. . . Please free Larry and the rest.
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Mar 21, 2021 00:38
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Please free Larry and the rest. that is not the same person that banned larry though Enjoy fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 02:22
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every time there's an argument in this thread its the fault of brown moses
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Mar 21, 2021 03:56
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When the Third Worldists and Social Patriots start going at it on twitter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMAIsqvTh7g&t=30s
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Mar 21, 2021 04:30
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Yossarian-22 posted:I don't disagree, but my point is that China's suppression of strikes, aggressive capitalist accumulation, etc. means it should be subject to critique from a leftist pov, and that this doesn't have to be synonymous with being a Westerner or being a liberal. Granted, although I tend to be more sympathetic to ultras than tankies I also think it's idiotic to deny the unprecedented amount of progress that China has made over the past 50 or 60 years and that much of this can be attributed to having a communist party in charge which has resisted western neoliberalism https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1372984215525064705?s=20 I like both Rethinking Socialism and From Victory to Defeat, and I think that even if you disagree with the conclusions about modern China the theoretical view of both socialist and capitalist elements coexisting in the period of transition rather than a simple progression of stages is quite valuable.
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Mar 21, 2021 04:48
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Enjoy posted:that is not the same person that banned larry though true, he was banned by one of the few good mods who does not think about pedophilia and post about child rape*, like many of the other mods seem to *that we know of
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Mar 21, 2021 06:16
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Throatwarbler posted:I'm (kind of) from Xinjiang and most of my (relevant) family still live there. NATO (Turkey) is currently arming and training tens of thousands of Uygur jihadists who have carved out an Al Qaeda state in Syria by ethnically cleansing Shi'ites and Christians. The ultimate goal is probably not to establish a Uygur homeland in Syria but to release them back in to China. A large part of the current repressive policies started/intensified right around when the Syrian civil war really kicked off - draw your own conclusions on that. 
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Mar 21, 2021 10:18
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come on man, who ever heard of local pops being radicalized and trained to be insurgents in other lands
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Mar 21, 2021 10:26
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smarxist posted:come on man, who ever heard of local pops being radicalized and trained to be insurgents in other lands this is the president (roosevelt)
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Mar 21, 2021 10:35
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so you can't speculate about what islamists may be doing w/r/t training jihadists or radicalizing populations, but you also can't say that Biden locking kids in cages or? edit: oh wait, that's not a D&D post lmao. eeesh.
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Mar 21, 2021 10:38
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china has been using the largely made up threat of uyghur radicalization to justify repression for decades. saying that maybe it all started because of Bad Muslims coming back from syria is a terrible post, I don't care who the poster is related to
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Mar 21, 2021 10:40
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Post your college paper or name your think tank
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Mar 21, 2021 10:43
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Flavius Aetass posted:this is the president (roosevelt) training and helping local extremist pops to infiltrate home was mostly under Reagan 
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Mar 21, 2021 10:46
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Flavius Aetass posted:china has been using the largely made up threat of uyghur radicalization to justify repression for decades. saying that maybe it all started because of Bad Muslims coming back from syria is a terrible post, I don't care who the poster is related to it seriously amazes me that you just keep on trucking even though seemingly the entirety of the forums hate your dumb rear end. i truly do not understand how you dont just quit and make the forums better by you no longer having buttons.
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Mar 21, 2021 11:06
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Baykin posted:it seriously amazes me that you just keep on trucking even though seemingly the entirety of the forums hate your dumb rear end. i truly do not understand how you dont just quit and make the forums better by you no longer having buttons. lol that's a great second post itt
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Mar 21, 2021 11:16
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