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Azhais posted:Jarvis obviously knows all of Tony's bank information Jarvis-brain is far too Stiff Upper Lip for that. On the other hand, Ultron-brain is always up for a good caper.
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Mar 20, 2021 20:58
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Thundercracker posted:I think we to actually get on the same page what's even happening in that scene because I think people are getting confused the actual details. Like, for example Sam isn't offering to pay the loan. He's just co-signing it. You know what, fair. I used the wrong language but his is kind of what I was getting at, sure they could give them the loan they're asking for, but they can mealy-mouth plenty of semi-reasonable reasons to disguise the fact that it's institutional racism, or at least we're meant to consider that it is institutional racism given that's clearly what Sam's sister is thinking, and it's then followed up with the reveal of the government chosen new Captain America. Who is of course a lantern jawed white man.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:00
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AJA posted:Jarvis-brain is far too Stiff Upper Lip for that. On the other hand, Ultron-brain is always up for a good caper. I wonder how Friday is doing. 
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Mar 20, 2021 21:01
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KittyEmpress posted:I think you're probably supposed to walk away with the idea that, yes, Falcon has refused to sell his image or to do commercials for major corporations. He probably could. Hell he could probably set up a signing and charge 50 bucks for anautograph, 100 for a picture, 200 for a handshake and walk away with multiple thousand. someone please photoshop one of the sad Virgil convention photos with Falcon instead
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Mar 20, 2021 21:11
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I think the scene is extremely effective at making you think “it’s racism“ without having a line where the guy says “I’m a racist who sees you as a famous black guy but I don’t want to give a loan to your sister.” Sure, he could make money selling images as the falcon. But his idol is literally Captain America, a man who went underground to fight world governments and superheroes because it was right. (Remember Sharon’s speech at Peggy’s funeral, “no you move”.) Sam clearly believes in institutions, which is why he goes to the bank, like a regular person would, and doesn’t name drop the fact he’s the falcon. He does when it’s clear that it might help him and to continue the meeting. We’ve already established why there are no avengers alive who can give him any money, and based on his sister’s criticism, he doesn’t want to start by asking.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:24
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Golden Bee posted:But his idol is literally Captain America, a man who went underground to fight world governments and superheroes because it was right. To be fair, his idol also lent his name to selling war bonds, a fact that's prominently displayed in the scene at the Smithsonian.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:28
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Lord_Magmar posted:He's not looking for money for himself, he's trying to offer to pay for a loan for his sister. The bank isn't interested in giving his sister a loan (that he's going to help pay for), it doesn't necessarily matter how much money he personally makes from his job when the whole point is the bank screwing him and his sister over for being black. Yeah she doesn't want his superhero charity, that's the point of their conversation, they're trying to do it the regular people way.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:33
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Phylodox posted:To be fair, his idol also lent his name to selling war bonds, a fact that's prominently displayed in the scene at the Smithsonian. TBF, that was because it was the only way he could help fight the Nazis at that specific point in time.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:34
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His sister literally says that she doesn't want his financial help and that they made a deal when he left that he was going to let her run her own life and their parents' estate. How are people confused about why she didn't want his money when it was actual text and not even subtext?
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Mar 20, 2021 21:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:His sister literally says that she doesn't want his financial help and that they made a deal when he left that he was going to let her run her own life and their parents' estate.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:His sister literally says that she doesn't want his financial help and that they made a deal when he left that he was going to let her run her own life and their parents' estate. people see black people talking and their brains just glaze over
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Mar 20, 2021 21:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:His sister literally says that she doesn't want his financial help and that they made a deal when he left that he was going to let her run her own life and their parents' estate. The script cancels that out when he says "half the house and the boat still belong to me, I'm not letting you sell them". At that point the conversation naturally moves to 'you can apply for the loan with me or I can buy you out with the fabulous amount of money I earn from being an Avenger' so we are right back to the complaint that people have been making. 'Incredibly famous and privileged black person still encounters institutional racism' is valid and believable. It's just not believable that Falcon is broke. The MCU has always been clear that Stark bankrolled everyone who signed up to be a hero to the extent that money was never an issue for anyone. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 21:56
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given all this discussion about the realities of finances in the Marvel universe it will turn out that while everyone thinks the next phase is Secret Wars its actually Secret War.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:04
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Alchenar posted:The MCU has always been clear that Stark bankrolled everyone who signed up to be a hero to the extent that money was never an issue for anyone. They didn’t have to pay for anything. That doesn’t mean they were paid. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 22:09
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Rewatch the bank scene. He was asked that very question. "didn't Stark pay you guys? My condolences by the way." "Naw, it didn't work that way. There was a lot of goodwill, and sometimes people like to help out"
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Mar 20, 2021 22:18
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Electric Phantasm posted:It'a gonna turn out Flag Smasher only robbed that bank because he too was turned down for a loan.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:18
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Lid posted:given all this discussion about the realities of finances in the Marvel universe it will turn out that while everyone thinks the next phase is Secret Wars its actually Secret War. Turns out the Skrull invasion is because Super-Skrull was denied a loan.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:20
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FlamingLiberal posted:Like are we supposed to be concerned that a Swiss bank got robbed? I think that is one of my biggest problems with the episode, that the Flag Smashers are some mysterious nefarious group, but all we've seen them do is rob a bank. The amount of money in those bags is probably less than the predatory overcharge fees the bank charges in a day.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:20
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It was the first episode, plus they didn't just rob a bank, they lured in random people from online postings and then used them as cover to escape capture. They clearly don't have a problem using random, innocent people to cause chaos, potentially leading to a lot worse things in upcoming episodes.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:21
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FlamingLiberal posted:Like are we supposed to be concerned that a Swiss bank got robbed? I think that is one of my biggest problems with the episode, that the Flag Smashers are some mysterious nefarious group, but all we've seen them do is rob a bank. Using super soldier level strength is the concerning bit, not the bank robbery but the method. Hence the message/communication to Sam about how the guy got beaten to hell by super strength, not that he tried to stop a bank robbery.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:22
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:It was the first episode, plus they didn't just rob a bank, they lured in random people from online postings and then used them as cover to escape capture. They clearly don't have a problem using random, innocent people to cause chaos, potentially leading to a lot worse things in upcoming episodes.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:22
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FlamingLiberal posted:Like are we supposed to be concerned that a Swiss bank got robbed? I think that is one of my biggest problems with the episode, that the Flag Smashers are some mysterious nefarious group, but all we've seen them do is rob a bank. they're not being painted as straight villains, the head guy got a gun pointed at him and just used fisticuffs, and bank robbery is a victimless crime as any fule kno
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Mar 20, 2021 22:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:His sister literally says that she doesn't want his financial help and that they made a deal when he left that he was going to let her run her own life and their parents' estate. Yeah, I was gonna mention that. And she doesn't even seem to be in good terms with Sam. ONE YEAR LATER posted:It was the first episode, plus they didn't just rob a bank, they lured in random people from online postings and then used them as cover to escape capture. They clearly don't have a problem using random, innocent people to cause chaos, potentially leading to a lot worse things in upcoming episodes. I don't think it's just random innocent people, this seem to be random internet people who are aware of what the Flag Smashers are into and will totally give them a hand. Unless the blip made everyone so super stupid that they will put the mask some masked stranger gave them without questioning.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:45
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Desperado Bones posted:Yeah, I was gonna mention that. And she doesn't even seem to be in good terms with Sam. yeah it's an Anonymous ref, it's like low level anti capitalist direct action or w/e
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Mar 20, 2021 22:53
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There's been a few cases in the comics of Bucky using his Winter Soldier super-spy skills to infiltrate various grassroots groups that are being used as cover for the bad guy of the month's evil plan, I assume that's where we're going.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:02
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FlamingLiberal posted:It's just concerning because this series is only 6 episodes and they spent like a third of the episode on the Louisiana stuff They spent another third with the falcon flying around, seems pretty balanced
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Mar 20, 2021 23:07
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FlamingLiberal posted:It's just concerning because this series is only 6 episodes and they spent like a third of the episode on the Louisiana stuff i really liked it, nice camerawork too. It's a good counterpoint with the films; i think they're knocking it out of the park in terms of what they choose to do with these TV shows so far, especially compared to the painfully dull (e.g.) Iron fist.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:11
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Azhais posted:Rewatch the bank scene. He was asked that very question. "didn't Stark pay you guys? My condolences by the way." "Naw, it didn't work that way. There was a lot of goodwill, and sometimes people like to help out" No I get what the show tells us there, I (and I think others) am saying that's just not credible. Cap has his apartment and Hawkeye has his off-the-books ranch and yeah there was some goodwill and favours but The Avengers were not couch surfing. Hell, Bucky has his apartment and money to spend and he's in some kind of faux witness-protection scheme. You can't have over ten years of handwaving away every money question with 'oh Stark is funding it all' and then reveal that actually Falcon doesn't have a pension or health insurance or any savings and apparently never thought this was important. The show wants us to believe something that's not really consistent with common sense because it needs the scene where Falcon experiences racism and powerlessness. That's his call to adventure. It's flawed because I just don't believe that Falcon can't do one commercial for Coca-Cola and instantly solve all his money woes and so it's not credible that this particular manifestation of racism would be a real problem for him beyond the indignity. A person in Falcon's shoes just does picks up the phone, makes a big pile of money, and then buys out the house they want to keep. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 23:13
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Desperado Bones posted:I don't think it's just random innocent people, this seem to be random internet people who are aware of what the Flag Smashers are into and will totally give them a hand. Unless the blip made everyone so super stupid that they will put the mask some masked stranger gave them without questioning. I didn't mean like random people walking by, I meant that they probably didn't post "hey meet us at this location to help us rob a bank", just told people to show up and handed out masks and then stuff happens. The Navy guy said to someone else standing there with his phone if he had any idea what they were supposed to do, right before masks were handed out. e: I know everyone in America is just one chance away from selling out but I think saying that Sam could just sign a deal for an endorsement and become rich is missing the whole point of his character and the conflict between a guy just doing a job that he signed up for (military service and working with the avengers) and someone who is just a marketing symbol to make people beat their chest and wave their flags. The first lines of the episode are from Steve telling Sam he's worthy of being Captain America and Sam doubting his worthiness. I really don't think Steve would nod approvingly if he saw Sam show up in an ad for Nikes. ONE YEAR LATER fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 23:19
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Alchenar posted:No I get what the show tells us there, I (and I think others) am saying that's just not credible. Cap has his apartment and Hawkeye has his off-the-books ranch and yeah there was some goodwill and favours but The Avengers were not couch surfing. Hell, Bucky has his apartment and money to spend and he's in some kind of faux witness-protection scheme. You can't have over ten years of handwaving away every money question with 'oh Stark is funding it all' and then reveal that actually Falcon doesn't have a pension or health insurance or any savings and apparently never thought this was important. Again, your missing the point. It doesn't matter how much cash on hand he has. His sister is too proud/angry to accept his money. The loan isn't just a practical option but a compromise in sibling feuding. It's a dramatic truce And Sam can have money on hand and still be a bad co-signer because the banker, who's totally "not racist" won't give him the benefit of the doubt because his credit history isn't in good order. And Sam probably hasn't thought about a pension or health insurance because he's a vet. And also a wanted criminal before the snap.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:35
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sebmojo posted:i really liked it, nice camerawork too. It's a good counterpoint with the films; i think they're knocking it out of the park in terms of what they choose to do with these TV shows so far, especially compared to the painfully dull (e.g.) Iron fist.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:36
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Thundercracker posted:Again, your missing the point. It doesn't matter how much cash on hand he has. His sister is too proud/angry to accept his money. The loan isn't just a practical option but a compromise in sibling feuding. It's a dramatic truce No I get the point but that's again an artificial conflict. In the real world if sister wants to sell the house and boat and the brother wants to keep them then the brother just buys her half out. This happens every day and is a perfectly ordinary solution. Vision bought a plot of land and he wasn't even a person. e: I completely understand the situation the show has set up. It just requires us to believe that the characters in questions have been acting in ways that aren't really credibly (just not caring about not getting paid) and are avoiding even discussing the obvious solution to their problems. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 23:40
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I envy the peace and simplicity of your relationship with your siblings alchenar. E: it's really not that contrived. Big bro is like here is a great compromise solution, society is like lol nope sister is like told u so.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:45
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Alchenar posted:No I get the point but that's again an artificial conflict. In the real world if sister wants to sell the house and boat and the brother wants to keep them then the brother just buys her half out. This happens every day and is a perfectly ordinary solution.  That's not...how it happens in every day...Ah. I've seen families ending hating each other and in endless feuds in situations where there's a property between them.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:45
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Alchenar posted:No I get the point but that's again an artificial conflict. In the real world if sister wants to sell the house and boat and the brother wants to keep them then the brother just buys her half out. This happens every day and is a perfectly ordinary solution. I think after all the events of 2020 I wouldn't rule out anything based on misplaced pride. So many people ruined their lives and health from being too proud to admit being wrong. The sister deeply resents Sam for leaving. Her refusing his money no matter how logical makes sense considering her bitterness. The loan thing was basically Sam cornering her, but she never believed it would work in the first place. And not to poo poo on the sister too much, Sam is also an rear end in a top hat here. He's forcing her to keep a boat that he maybe visits a few times a year. It's a dick move.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:46
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Thundercracker posted:The amount of money in those bags is probably less than the predatory overcharge fees the bank charges in a day. Do Swiss banks have overcharge fees?
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Mar 20, 2021 23:46
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Technically Hawkeye used to be a thief so that ranch could have come from anywhere (and we have no idea what his wife does), and Cap was probably a government employee. Other than Stark are any of the avengers, comics or otherwise, shown to have any money? Spider man is either a broke photographer hawking selfies or supported by mj Black widow is a shield employee and I doubt paid much more than other government people Banner tends to live in the middle of nowhere to avoid hulking Strange and Thor have their own thing going on Extended roster has a lawyer and someone that charges for hero work and a bunch more vague people like falcon
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Mar 20, 2021 23:49
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Like I have some stuff I hold in common with my siblings and just getting to an agreed and very equitable solution was a loving minefield. And we all like each other. Add in the blip, literal superheroes, a fraught relationship, stress of running a failing business...
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Mar 20, 2021 23:50
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It's not like Sam wants to run the business himself. Buying his sister out defeats the point of saving the family business.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:50
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Azhais posted:Technically Hawkeye used to be a thief so that ranch could have come from anywhere (and we have no idea what his wife does), and Cap was probably a government employee. I'm not a comic reader but modern spiderman (like last decade or so) stopped being a dumb poor and started his own tech company and is rich. Hawkeye says in AoU that the farm and keeping his family off the record was a deal he made with Fury as a condition to joining SHIELD, so it could have been a family property or could have been given to him, no real details about it are provided in the movie.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:57
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