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BrianWilly posted:Again, conversations in this thread would go a lot smoother if people talked about what's in the show instead of what they want the show to say in order to support their positions. Sarah wants to sell the house and boat for money. She doesn't want pity money, but she absolutely wants money and her plan is to get it. When she rejects Falcon's pity money, the next obvious step is "Fine, if you are selling let me buy from you". e: also the show itself is inconsistent on whether Falcon has money or not. He offers it to Sarah as a gift which she rejects, but then at the bank he's really awkward and embarrassed not to have proof of funds. Well which is it? e2: I mean this ultimately a quibble on something that just didn't fit right with the universe as we understand it, but otherwise the episode was good watching. Well, other than 'We really can't afford to piss off the Libyan government by violating their airspace'. Everything Bucky was great. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 10:29
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I never knew where this thread would go after WandaVision clickbait-hype chat, but I can’t say “demanding Falcon’s 1099 and annual earnings report” is something I ever expected to come up
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Mar 21, 2021 10:40
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Bust Rodd posted:This also doesn’t make sense. One of the most connected military contractors in the world, and personal friends with the worlds richest tech billionaires and also the king of richest country in the world, doesn’t have ONE friend in the finance industry? He can’t ask anyone to make a phone call on his behalf? It probably would be in other situations. If Falcon and his sister had walked into Chase-Manhattan or Bank of America in New York, there's a good possibility that they'd be walking out with the money because once upon a time Falcon saved the CEOs life or something. But they didn't go to NYC. They went to their small town bank with their small town banker who assumed that the fit-looking black dude must have played for LSU or something because he seemed vaguely familiar. For Chase-Manhattan or Bank of America the public relations value of a photo op with Falcon and the story of them helping his sister and thus showing their Avengers Goodwill is worth a lot more than the piss-ant amount of money (to them) of a loan on which she might default. And yes, there are a multitude of things that Sam could potentially do or have done in that situation. Weaponizing his Avengers goodwill into ill-will toward that bank is just one of them. But the Venn diagram of "Stuff he could do" and "stuff he is willing to do" has very little overlap at this point. Meanwhile, consider that this is still just the first episode in this season. There is a very strong probability that we will be re-visiting that bank later. This is still an MCU movie and in an MCU movie, evil (which very much includes institutional (or any kind of) racism) does not get to win in the end.
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Mar 21, 2021 10:42
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I never knew where this thread would go after WandaVision clickbait-hype chat, but I can’t say “demanding Falcon’s 1099 and annual earnings report” is something I ever expected to come up im sorry seeing mild institutional racism and fraught sibling relationships is a bridge too far for my suspension of disbelief that's just how it is 
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Mar 21, 2021 10:53
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Alchenar posted:Sarah wants to sell the house and boat for money. sam doesn't want to run a shrimping business, he's a superhero he wants to do superhero stuff. he just wants it to be there so he can visit from time to time, get his nostalgia fix and get treated like a cool superhero uncle. his sister absolutely knows this and finds it really irritating. this isn't a tendentious reading it's just short of having silent movie intertitles.
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Mar 21, 2021 10:56
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Alchenar posted:Sarah wants to sell the house and boat for money. Yes, Sarah wants money. But she also does not want Sam to simply hand her his money. These are not mutually exclusive concepts! Their deal, motivated by familial pride, is such that she supports herself through her own business and he supports himself as well. For example! If, for some reason, Sam couldn't afford being the Falcon all of a sudden, he would also not accept Sarah simply handing him money from her shrimp business. Does that make sense? With me so far? How much money Sam has on hand, on his person, in his current bank account, has nothing to do with anything. Sarah's not going to take it. Sam has proof of funds. He mentions during the meeting that he literally at this moment right now is contracted with the military. The bank, however, denies them this loan because Sam did not have proof of funds for the past five years. It's a ridiculous technicality, of course. It makes no sense. Everyone in the room knows it. How can you have proof of funds if you were blipped out of existence? But that's the policy that they're sticking with. And on that note, if you think that this sort of policy would be too over the top in the real world, you haven't been paying any attention to anything in the past entire year. Did y'all know that absolutely no retail businesses in the country were insured for a pandemic? Or rather, pandemic coverage is officially not allowed by insurance agencies. So what can you do if, for instance, there is a pandemic in the country and you're forced to shut down for months on end? Literally nothing. Beg the government for bailouts, maybe. Get a PPP loan of maybe couple grand. Or just sell your business instead of sinking into debt. Guess what I had to do?
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Mar 21, 2021 11:00
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Oasx posted:I was a little annoyed by the sister. First she was too proud to take the money, even though she knew Sam cared about the boat, and then she got angry with him for being away while he was saving the world. Honestly, I'm all on Sarah's side. It's a boat that doesn't run, that Sam doesn't need, and that she has to deal with even if they got the loan. He's bouncing out of there the moment there's trouble in the world and he can be the Falcon again. It's like a mirror of Cap's shield where he's letting sentimentality override not onlyreason, but even what people close to him are saying to his face. Also I could definitely see survivors being pissed at blippers. Like if it's as bad as it logically would get the last 5 years as has been a nightmare. Then the people you've grieved for years just suddenly come back and are like "This boat is actually half mine."
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Mar 21, 2021 11:32
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The_Doctor posted:Here’s a Variety interview with FatWS head writer Malcolm Spellman to clear up that, dear god yea, it’s all very much about race. Interesting to note that the writing team for this is mostly black. Good, the more insight, the better. this is a great interview and everyone should read it especially this bit lmao quote:You had a banker ask Sam how he made his money — that’s a question that I’ve always wondered about and I imagine you had, too. Did you ask that of Kevin Feige?
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Mar 21, 2021 11:42
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Marsupial Ape posted:Because he’s a grown-rear end adult with dignity and self-respect? This post made me pretty hot under the collar but I erased everything because it doesn’t really matter, but this is a narrow-minded and unrealistic interpretation of how poor people can afford to “go it alone” in this country. As a poor person, someone who grew up on food stamps and social security checks, I find the idea that Falcon wouldn’t use any of his contacts or prestige to his benefit insulting, and your implication that people who ask for help have no self-respect or dignity equally insulting and sort of dehumanizing. That Variety interview does clear some things up, so thanks for posting that! Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 12:17
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MCU TV: CIVIL WAR (OVER BOAT FINANCING)
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Mar 21, 2021 12:26
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BrianWilly posted:Oh my god how is this possibly so hard for y'all. I understand this entirely and it's not the point being made. As the (good) interview reveals, raising this scene caused a fuss in Marvel because it forced an answer to an issue that Marvel has spent a decade deliberately avoiding because superhero stories are not supposed to be about personal finances and the moment you say that heroes are on personal contracts then you are suddenly literally The Boys.
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Mar 21, 2021 12:51
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Alchenar posted:I understand this entirely and it's not the point being made. lmao just say you don't care about black people, it's okay
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Mar 21, 2021 13:43
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Oasx posted:I was a little annoyed by the sister. First she was too proud to take the money, even though she knew Sam cared about the boat, and then she got angry with him for being away while he was saving the world. It's supposed to be a metaphor for their relationship: 1) He leaves the family to join the army and move across the country. He "disappeared" and left them hanging when they needed him. 2) Their dad died, he came back, but then "disappeared" again after the funeral. They make an agreement that he will let his sister run the business, keep the house, and live her life without him dropping in once every few years to "save" her because it is easy to avoid the years of hard work and then come in and act like a hero when you weren't there for the struggle/mom and dad struggling/their deaths. 3) He literally "disappears" for 5 years while the world descends into chaos, her husband dies, and she has to raise her kids, keep the business afloat, and live through the new world. Then, he comes back and gets mad at her for "mortgaging their parents' legacy" and says he has to be involved because she mortgaged the house and he won't let her sell it. It is not about money for either of them. He wants to keep the house and the boat because they are symbols of his connection to his home/family. He thinks it is insane to let them go and she is being needlessly stubborn and callous by holding it against him. His sister lived through all of it, made the tough decisions, and once again, he has been gone forever and just pops back in to try and "save" her and boss her around. Even after they explicitly made their deal that she would be allowed to run her own life. She had the years of struggle to process what needed to be done and points out to him that his attachment to the boat and house are just because he was never around to actually do the hard work on them. His idea of the town is completely divorced from reality ("none of them have known our family for decades," "It's not the same as when you left. It's changed and you weren't here to see," and "you weren't here to see the kids grow up.") and she is resentful that his whole life he has been disappearing, returning to be a hero and "save" them, and then just disappearing again. She thinks he is trying to avoid the hard choices that she has been forced to make all of these years and will just disappear again and come back to "save" her once the money runs out again. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 14:43
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Oasx posted:She was also the second person in the episode, who victim blamed someone who got killed in the snap, I wonder if that is a common thing. I'm absolutely sure it is a very big thing. We've seen it on-screen already in WV, with Haywood smarmily welcoming Monica back, and in FFH, though there it's a bit less pointed because the family unit we see were both snapped, and the rest are kids. Even if you knew it weren't their fault, and were thrilled to have them back, you would absolute resent your friends and loved ones who got to skip five lovely, depressing years, during which you probably grieved them. You would certainly have zero patience for them second-guessing whatever hard choices you had to make during those five years.
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Mar 21, 2021 14:56
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They should of done a Leftovers style series with regular people that took place during it.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:00
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Bust Rodd posted:This post made me pretty hot under the collar but I erased everything because it doesn’t really matter, but this is a narrow-minded and unrealistic interpretation of how poor people can afford to “go it alone” in this country. He’s not trying to raise funds to feed and shelter his sister and nephews, he’s trying to save his family’s money losing wreck of a boat for sentimental reasons. It’s a vanity project and he knows it. And if you want me to make you feel insulted and dehumanized, that’ll be 200 dollars an hour and you have to sign a consent form.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:00
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DogsInSpace! posted:Wait... really? I’m guessing you are in the American south. Texas? Racism isn’t region locked
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Mar 21, 2021 15:07
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Test Pattern posted:I'm absolutely sure it is a very big thing. We've seen it on-screen already in WV, with Haywood smarmily welcoming Monica back, and in FFH, though there it's a bit less pointed because the family unit we see were both snapped, and the rest are kids. Even if you knew it weren't their fault, and were thrilled to have them back, you would absolute resent your friends and loved ones who got to skip five lovely, depressing years, during which you probably grieved them. Peter's teenage antagonist in FFH is the one who wasn't snapped so even that movie has the division.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:08
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Man this argument is tiring. It’s just a contrivance to make the flying man more relatable! It basically works if you don’t think about it too hard.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:30
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Thundercracker posted:MCU TV: CIVIL WAR (OVER BOAT FINANCING) MCU TV: SAM'S SISTER DOESN'T WANT HIS MONEY.  omg with this thread. Can't imagine how the thread will react in the next episodes.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:49
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I skipped forward like five pages because I was tired of the prior three pages of discussion re Sam's financial situation and it's... still going? 
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Mar 21, 2021 15:53
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Could someone, as a laugh, go ahead and time the entire scene to see how much screentime generated this multi-day discussion?
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Mar 21, 2021 15:57
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Ccs posted:Man this argument is tiring. It’s just a contrivance to make the flying man more relatable! It basically works if you don’t think about it too hard. Well more to make a VERY real point about racism in America.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:58
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Bust Rodd posted:Could someone, as a laugh, go ahead and time the entire scene to see how much screentime generated this multi-day discussion? If anyone should rewatch it it’s you
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Mar 21, 2021 16:09
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I think the reason this going on so long because there are three distinct schools of thought here that can’t get square with one another. Camp 1: Racism trumps classism. “It doesn’t matter how much money Sam has, he’s Black and the system is biased against him. That’s why he didn’t get the loan”. Camp 2: Classism trumps racism. “Yes, racism is real, but in a capitalist society the system is biased towards the wealthy and famous. That’s why it’s dumb he didn’t get the loan”. Camp 3: The people who can’t understand why Sam doesn’t sell autographed pictures of his butthole in Japan for money.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:08
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Marsupial Ape posted:I think the reason this going on so long because there are three distinct schools of thought here that can’t get square with one another. Yes, and I think part of it is disagreement about how famous the Avengers actually are, and we never really see them interact with normal people during the movies. The show is the first time we've seen them interact with non-powered people. One person upthread said Sam was probably as famous as a mid level WWE star, whereas to me he's probably like the second most famous person alive on the planet, after maybe Bruce Banner.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:18
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Does the IRS have specific tax forms for superheroes? Do villains pay taxes? Henchmen/canon fodder? If I am a vibranium synthazoid, will TurboTax cover my situation or do I need to go to H&R Block? I am a white synthazoid and my twin brother is red, is that why I was approved for a home loan but he wasn't?
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Mar 21, 2021 17:21
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probably the most compelling reason that this conflict is contrived is that Falcon absolutely has a handler who's job it is to know his sister is struggling in debt and either disqualify him from covert ops or take care of it, regardless of her wishes on the subject. but realistically, people with/who manage security clearance gently caress that up all the time. Sam being a famous hero would probably exacerbate that problem, not make them more likely to solve it.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:22
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Ravel posted:Yes, and I think part of it is disagreement about how famous the Avengers actually are, and we never really see them interact with normal people during the movies. The show is the first time we've seen them interact with non-powered people. One person upthread said Sam was probably as famous as a mid level WWE star, whereas to me he's probably like the second most famous person alive on the planet, after maybe Bruce Banner. They had the banker not be able to place Sam to answer this
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Mar 21, 2021 17:32
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Ravel posted:Yes, and I think part of it is disagreement about how famous the Avengers actually are, and we never really see them interact with normal people during the movies. The show is the first time we've seen them interact with non-powered people. One person upthread said Sam was probably as famous as a mid level WWE star, whereas to me he's probably like the second most famous person alive on the planet, after maybe Bruce Banner. Well there was that scene in Endgame where a bunch of kids wanted a selfie with Hulk but they didn't really give a poo poo about Ant Man when he mentioned who he was, and apparently didn't even recognise Steve Rogers or Natasha out of costume either. So I assume the core Avengers are hella famous in costume but outside of that they aren't really noticed or are mostly seen as glorified sidekicks if they aren't the core ones. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 17:32
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Xachariah posted:Well there was that scene in Endgame where a bunch of kids wanted a selfie with Hulk but they didn't really give a poo poo about Ant Man when he mentioned who he was, and apparently didn't even recognise Steve Rogers or Natasha out of costume either. So I assume the core Avengers are hella famous in costume but outside of that they aren't really noticed or are mostly seen as glorified sidekicks. Ant-Man wasn't an Avenger
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Mar 21, 2021 17:33
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King Of Coons posted:They had the banker not be able to place Sam to answer this Or he's just a racist who didn't expect to see one of the most famous people in the world wander into work. Could just be cognitive disconnect.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:41
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Rockstar Massacre posted:probably the most compelling reason that this conflict is contrived is that Falcon absolutely has a handler who's job it is to know his sister is struggling in debt and either disqualify him from covert ops or take care of it, regardless of her wishes on the subject. Also, consider this is six months after the blip and the world is in all kinds of turmoil. The military is probably happy to overlook Sam’s financials if he can get back to blowing poo poo up for them, ASAP.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:44
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Piell posted:Ant-Man wasn't an Avenger The only Avengers mission we saw Sam on was trying to prevent Crossbones from stealing a bioweapon. It's doubtful that his era of the Avengers got as much press as the team that saved New York/destroyed Sokovia.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:44
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I'm gonna be honest, just like i wouldnt recognize Chris Evan's in person (literally, I've seen him in person and only got told THAT WAS CHRIS EVANS after the fact) I probably wouldn't recognize any of the other avengers unless they were in costume. Except Hulk.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:53
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I think recognising Tony Stark would be the easiest, he’s just as famous outside the costume as in it after all.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:58
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In the second scene of the episode after the action sequence opening, Sam is sitting in a small cafe in Tunisia and a random guy literally walks up to him and goes “HEY YOU’RE AN AVENGER YOU SAVED MY WIFE THANK YOU” in addition to the bank guy also sort of recognizing him right away. So the episode wants you to think that Sam is both famous enough to be instantly recognizable and that people with blipped loved ones may have a special affinity for the Avengers Also the bank scene starts at 36:22 and they exit the bank at 38:38, so the whole thing 2 minutes and 16 seconds, not including the next minute of them fighting outside.
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Mar 21, 2021 17:59
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^^ Yeah but those are fairly isolated examples, he's not getting mobbed everywhere he goes. He seems to be famous in a minor celebrity way where he gets the occassional comments but he's not famous enough to be mobbed or have paparazzi follow him.live with fruit posted:The only Avengers mission we saw Sam on was trying to prevent Crossbones from stealing a bioweapon. It's doubtful that his era of the Avengers got as much press as the team that saved New York/destroyed Sokovia. Even in that case Thor was hardly mobbed by people trying to take selfies when he and Loki were visiting Dr. Strange in New York. There was just what, some looks and a couple girls saying something about him and Jane? Out of costume these guys seem to be mostly anonymous. Only exceptions seem to be Stark because he's a famous billionaire and Smart Hulk because he's a giant green 'roid monster. EDIT: I imagine that there's supposed to be a lot more superheroes and weird stuff going on in the MCU besides what we see in the films. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 18:00
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Desperado Bones posted:MCU TV: SAM'S SISTER DOESN'T WANT HIS MONEY. We've come so far https://www.vulture.com/2009/05/marvel_rolls_dice_casts_no-nam.html
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Mar 21, 2021 18:11
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Bust Rodd posted:In the second scene of the episode after the action sequence opening, Sam is sitting in a small cafe in Tunisia and a random guy literally walks up to him and goes “HEY YOU’RE AN AVENGER YOU SAVED MY WIFE THANK YOU” in addition to the bank guy also sort of recognizing him right away There aren’t a lot of black military operators in Tunisia compared to Black people in New Orleans
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Mar 21, 2021 18:19
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