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Rand Brittain posted:The main thing against it is that that particular twist feels kind of overdone and twist-for-the-sake-of-a-twist. Yeah, Hydaelyn tempering people feels like an unneeded plot element at this stage. Hell, even Zodiark tempering people is implied to have been because of Edlibus. Edlibus wanted to make the Council agree on things, thus he acted. What does that sound like happened to you? There's a finite amount of moving parts on all this and only so much time to roll things out. The big takeaway from all this right now is that Zodiark is missing his Heart. His Heart got out and walked around on its own, and then got spacked by The Minister of Very Enthusiastic Walks. Someone with a reputation for wearing Primals like battle armor has shown back up, and his Heart was afraid of him. We know where this is going. We also know how Hydaelyn usually responds to dangerous events: She sacrifices of herself to save the people she believes can thwart the danger and save the world. EDIT: I suppose the question we haven't asked at this point is, why is Fandaniel recreating the Final Days? What aspect of recreating the Final Days leads to allowing Zenos to eat Zodiark? Is there some kind of contingency in place in the event The Beast escapes confinement? Is Fandaniel banking on the idea of Hydaelyn herself releasing Zodiark in his weakened state to fight The Beast? Gearhead fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 18:18
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Now that i think about it, you only even get the Blessing of Light after you've already chumped Garuda, Titan and Ifrit. IIRC, Hydaelin grants you the blessing during the Ultima Weapon fight, it's the bright flash that allows you to actually damage Ultima.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:21
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As far as Hydaelyn goes, pretty much after every time a shadier side is even hinted at she ends up going out of her way to use her waning strength to help people when we touch bases. Minfilia becomes her proxy and in Shadowbringers she ends up with having regretted the necessity of living like an Ascian and being relieved that Ryne wanted to be her own person, which I see as basically being a reflection for Hydaelyn - she's had the task of keeping Zodiark at bay to protect the people of the world from being sacrificed to restore Amaurot, and really her endgame from that perspective is just "the new life of the world lives on free of that worry" which can't happen as long as the threat of Zodiark remains, but all she was able to do on her own was fragment his power and seal him away. I had another idle thought regarding Endwalker having its own version of Pandemonium... there's always the possibility of some form of a Soul of Rebirth scenario playing, too. One last chance for Moenbryda to be in the story  Also maybe we can get something like Minwu's outfit for Healer, that'd be cool.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:21
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HenryEx posted:Now that i think about it, you only even get the Blessing of Light after you've already chumped Garuda, Titan and Ifrit. IIRC, Hydaelin grants you the blessing during the Ultima Weapon fight, it's the bright flash that allows you to actually damage Ultima. The thing to ever accuse you of being Tempered by Hydealin is Ifrit, who can only think of things in terms of one being dominating another. It makes complete sense that he would assume anything he cannot dominate has already been dominated by someone else.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:24
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I think that we would know if we were Tempered. I think you're consciously aware of it, it's just a matter of whether or not one of your side effects is turning into a zealot like the ARR primal worshippers.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:30
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If Hydaelyn is "just a primal" or whatever, and tempers people like any ol' Primal then it's kinda dumb that the Ultima Weapon-- the ultimate primal-slaying device ever conceived-- is defeated by Hydaelyn buffing her friend/champion/slave.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:34
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I think we'd have more hints that something is going on if we were tempered, it feels like a Primal summoned for the purposes of liberating the world would be disinclined towards tempering people. Emet wouldn't have hesitated to call us out as being her pawns and tempered if he had an opportunity to do so. He calls HIMSELF out as having been tempered. That we're developing a cure for people who've been brainwashed by Primals suggests to me that they want to move away from stories that tie into the idea of that plot element.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:36
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We've never been in the direct presence of Hydaelyn, unlike Emet re: Zodiark. Every time we've been around crystal mom, it's been in vision form. Using Emet's statement about how he was in the presence of Zodiark and thus tempered to say that the WoL is tempered doesn't track.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:41
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apostateCourier posted:We've never been in the direct presence of Hydaelyn, unlike Emet re: Zodiark. Every time we've been around crystal mom, it's been in vision form. Using Emet's statement about how he was in the presence of Zodiark and thus tempered to say that the WoL is tempered doesn't track. To be fair, Bahamut could remote-Temper people via the Lunar Transmitter. Gaius implied that Midas got such a heavy dose of Dragon Mojo that he.. transformed.. before the end of it.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:47
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Gearhead posted:To be fair, Bahamut could remote-Temper people via the Lunar Transmitter. Gaius implied that Midas got such a heavy dose of Dragon Mojo that he.. transformed.. before the end of it. Sure, but there's an explained mechanism for that.
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Mar 21, 2021 18:49
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apostateCourier posted:Sure, but there's an explained mechanism for that. Really just trying to make sure all my bases are covered. It feels like the major story beats we have looming ahead of us at this point are something like this:
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Mar 21, 2021 18:58
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yea tempering isn't actually subtle at all, it's just most beast tribes don't have the lexicon we do so they can't go 'yo WoL I'm tempered as gently caress right now'.
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Mar 21, 2021 19:04
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The fun part about this Weapon storyline is that we might be getting our first glimpse into further studies on treating people who have been Tempered to the extent that they have mutated. And, when you get down to it, Oversoul and the mutations caused by it, are really similar to the advent of the first Voidsent on the Thirteenth through the use of Auracite weapons.
Gearhead fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 19:08
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the interesting thing about Hydaelyn is that she's a personality-type primal (similar to Ysayle-Shiva), presumably of Venat, the leader of the rebels who contested the Convocation of the Fourteen. much like Ysayle-Shiva, this is both a blessing and a curse - unlike the other more binary primals like Ifrit, Titan, etc who exist as godly manifestations of their believers, the personality-type primals are (presumably) still people beneath the primal veneer, unlike Zodiark, who is a more binary primal in that he was summoned out of desperation by the bygone Ancients. the reason I bring this up is because Hydaelyn-Venat is a rogue factor. we have absolutely no idea what she'll do. much like how Ysayle-Shiva did legions of dumb poo poo and then ate poo poo and died during Heavensward, there's nothing really stopping some grand artifice from influencing Hydaelyn-Venat to do the same thing. we've already seen Hydaelyn-Venat do batshit crazy poo poo like sundering the souls of her people, stealing minfila, burning herself nearly dry to give herself guidance to anyone that wakes up (end of Shadowbringers with the comet stuff). unlike a binary primal, there's no godly "image" to rein her in that she has to live up to, doubly so since she doesn't reveal herself to 'normal' people nor really accept worship or tithes either, as far as we can tell. not only that, remember that Venet headed a *rebel* group in an incredibly ordered society if any of the amaurot visions are to be believed, so she's 100% a wildcard and at the barest minimum, Hydaelyn's got that kind of firebrand as her heart. then there's this unspoken 'pact' between her and Midgardsormr, who has expressed a keen interest in ridding us of her blessing... perhaps the dragon dad knows what's up, and that's what he's been chilling out asleep inside us for over the past 3 expansions biding his last bit of power for. so who knows, maybe Endwalker does end up with a crazy Zenos finally pushing Hydaelyn-Venat over the edge and dialling the Cosmic Fuckery dial up to 11. maybe she decides to try sundering people *again*, and this time it means everyone ~we~ know and love from the series is at risk of just vanishing for good. or maybe that happens briefly, and we get Emet-Selch'd. my rambly point here is that hydaelyn does not automatically equal good and shadowbringers alone labored on for 3/4 of the expansion pack about not treating those who appear outwardly bad as bad (remember that we lived), that the ancients were all very emotional creatures (amaurot, elidibus) and that they're certainly not infallible and absolutely not gods.
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Mar 21, 2021 20:40
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clubDeuce posted:we've already seen Hydaelyn-Venat do batshit crazy poo poo like sundering the souls of her people Have we seen anything that demonstrated this to be an intentional act as opposed to a side effect of her nuking Zodiark?
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Mar 21, 2021 21:21
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Kyrosiris posted:Have we seen anything that demonstrated this to be an intentional act as opposed to a side effect of her nuking Zodiark? They explicitly said she was made to split the world and zodiark with it because he is the world.
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Mar 21, 2021 22:24
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There is a significantly greater chance that Momcrystal is dying and the End of Days coincides with that fact. So you have a hard time limit before she dies and there's nothing stopping Zodiark or The Noise from doing what it does. That is far more in line with the plot of the game than "actually you were mind controlled the entire time and everyone is evil." That doesn't mean it is impossible you'll fight her but it could very well be one of the "I am fighting you to confirm you can do what needs to be done" fights like Ramuh.
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Mar 21, 2021 22:32
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SirSamVimes posted:I mean it apparently allowed us to mainline several lethal doses of Light aether. I'm pretty sure the blessing of light protecting us from lightwardens was part of the lie Urianger and the Exarch came up with, it was the power of the echo giving us resistance to light corruption and I assume they knew this because they're archons in aetherology. Turning into a sin eater/voidsent is described as basically the same process to tempering, its just the source of one is a deluge of unthinking primordial aether and the source of the other is a conscious entity emitting immense aetherical power. Lazy Fair fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 01:14
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Lazy Fair posted:I'm pretty sure the blessing of light protecting us from lightwardens was part of the lie Urianger and the Exarch came up with, it was the power of the echo giving us resistance to light corruption and I assume they knew this because they're archons in aetherology. Turning into a sin eater/voidsent is described as basically the same process to tempering, its just the source of one is a deluge of unthinking primordial aether and the source of the other is a conscious entity emitting immense aetherical power. I mean except for all scenes of absorbing light aether showing the Blessing of Light magic circle.
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Mar 22, 2021 01:38
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clubDeuce posted:who has expressed a keen interest in ridding us of her blessing Unless we want to say Middy is lying, then the reason he blasted it out of us is officially "mom is killing herself babying you, knock it off and get swole yourself."
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Mar 22, 2021 02:14
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Hydaelyn turning out to be evil and tempering people would be an awful twist
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Mar 22, 2021 02:51
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thetoughestbean posted:Hydaelyn turning out to be evil and tempering people would be an awful twist seriously not only is it hack we JUST did the expansion where 'oh ho what if we had to become the warrior of...DARKNESS???? Light...BAD????' was the main point and they nailed it. With the WoL job being Paladin this expansion dipping into that well again would be so dumb.
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Mar 22, 2021 02:54
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NachtSieger posted:Unless we want to say Middy is lying, then the reason he blasted it out of us is officially "mom is killing herself babying you, knock it off and get swole yourself." Yeah, and that was just to fight Ultima Weapon and some chump primals. I could definitely see Hydaelyn straight up killing herself to power us up to fight Zodiark directly. Which would succeed in getting rid of both gods of the planet without a contrived "crystal mom was evil the whole time!!!" twist if they wanted to go that route.
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Mar 22, 2021 02:56
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WrightOfWay posted:Yeah, and that was just to fight Ultima Weapon and some chump primals. I could definitely see Hydaelyn straight up killing herself to power us up to fight Zodiark directly. Which would succeed in getting rid of both gods of the planet without a contrived "crystal mom was evil the whole time!!!" twist if they wanted to go that route. Agreed. Hydaelyn has pretty much been up against the ropes since the day we stepped off of the chocobo carriage/ship. She's basically been losing a war of attrition against the Ascians since the Sundering and the final nail is getting lined up on her coffin. Her sacrificing herself in a big Hail Mary play so we can finish off Zodiark would track as a thing that could happen.
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Mar 22, 2021 03:29
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thetoughestbean posted:Hydaelyn turning out to be evil and tempering people would be an awful twist Yeah, Hydaelyn is actually much more interesting as essentially a 'Primal of Benevolence'. Making her evil is just... guys, we're gonna be fighting a purple rock at the end of this next expansion, do you REALLY think fighting a blue rock as well because it's been declared evil is going to be more interesting? Making her good, but still a primal, opens us up for way more interesting angles. One of the best things about FFXIV's story to me is that once the fireworks are over, it makes a point of asking 'now what' and grappling with those questions, and Hydaelyn after Zodiark is a fantastic 'now what' question. After all, we've never seen a primal win and achieve its goals; I'm much more interested in what happens when THAT happens than I am in 'oooooh but what if she TEMPERED US and was BAAAAD'.
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Mar 22, 2021 03:31
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yea a Primal who's kinda Lakshmi like in her 'compassionate' elements is way more interesting than 'what if good god was...BAD GOD TOO????' I mean we're gonna go up against Zodiark in some form, either the primal proper or Zenos' weird mutant eating of him or whatever, adding Hydaelyn to that fight wouldn't ADD anything narratively, if anything it'd just make the big epic showdown weaker.
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Mar 22, 2021 03:37
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zenos is gonna eat zodiark so hydaelyn is gonna let herself get eaten by wol
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Mar 22, 2021 03:39
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Imagine if G Warrior was Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann instead of a Gundam
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Mar 22, 2021 03:43
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Farg posted:zenos is gonna eat zodiark so hydaelyn is gonna let herself get eaten by wol That might not happen, because the thing that's opening the door for Zenos with Zodiark is essentially that it's an empty pilot's seat; with Elidibus gone, Zodiark has no 'heart' to control it (and perhaps, with Elidibus being walking around outside of it for so long, hasn't had a heart for a while). Whereas Hydaelyn to the best of anyone's knowledge is still being controlled just fine by Venat, given Hydaelyn's shown actual agency as recently as 2.x.
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Mar 22, 2021 03:46
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yea seems Venat's still piloting ol Light Mom just fine unless something's changed behind the scenes (a possibility, it HAS been a while), the whole reason 'Zenos is gonna eat Zodiark' is a theory is because they made such a big deal about making it clear Elidbus was the heart and we just iced him so there's a...for lack of a less punny word...void for Zenos to fill. Maybe it'll be revealed Venat has been made weak in keeping Hydaelyn alive and all and we'll need to take the heart role for the big final clash.
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Mar 22, 2021 04:09
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Non-Evil Primals have been seen before. Ramuh was one, since his myth involved being wise the Sylphs made him so when they summoned him, and he was aware of what was up, even if he was still driven to protect the Sylphlands from outsiders. Plus Alexander who realized it was a threat to the planet and orchestrated it's own defeat. Hell, even Susano-O wasn't malevolent, he was just a big fighty partyboi.
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Mar 22, 2021 04:12
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the_steve posted:Non-Evil Primals have been seen before. Ramuh was one, since his myth involved being wise the Sylphs made him so when they summoned him, and he was aware of what was up, even if he was still driven to protect the Sylphlands from outsiders. The disconnect between Ramuh and the tempered Sylphs was pretty bad, imo. Ramuh was chill enough in person but his tenpered servants were awful
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Mar 22, 2021 04:15
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isn't it part of the point of what primals are, that primals are the idea of what the summoners think it is, not actually the concept they took it from? eg, ysayle-shiva was not actually shiva, but the idea of what ysayle thought shiva was?
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Mar 22, 2021 04:21
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That's not part of what primals are; it's entirely what they are.
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Mar 22, 2021 04:24
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I just finished the post-role quest... um, quests. Unulkahai mentions that the heroes of the Thirteenth were corrupted by the crystals they were using to trap primals. All the way back in ARR wasn't Elidibus trying to get us to use those and then we figured they could trap ascians too?
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Mar 22, 2021 04:37
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Bruceski posted:I just finished the post-role quest... um, quests. Unulkahai mentions that the heroes of the Thirteenth were corrupted by the crystals they were using to trap primals. All the way back in ARR wasn't Elidibus trying to get us to use those and then we figured they could trap ascians too? We used White Auracite, which is different than regular Auracite. Elidibus didn't have anything to do with us using it.
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Mar 22, 2021 04:40
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the_steve posted:Non-Evil Primals have been seen before. Ramuh was one, since his myth involved being wise the Sylphs made him so when they summoned him, and he was aware of what was up, even if he was still driven to protect the Sylphlands from outsiders. We've clashed with what could be considered 'good primals' before, but honestly, they've all had their own agendas that they were 'heroes' of in their own world. Ramuh was the Sylphs' wise and diplomatic leader (because they knew they needed one), Alexander recognized its own danger. Lakshmi's an interesting one in that she's essentially a goddess of love and harmony, it's just... love and harmony on someone else's terms. But that's still an extreme minority, and in all cases, ones where circumstances put us against them anyway. Hydaelyn's interesting as a primal because her presence has been actively helpful, and she specifically wants us to succeed. She's also, as I've mentioned, the only primal we've ever crossed paths with with a completable goal; Ramuh wanted to be an (indefinite) leader, Ifrit wanted unparalleled destruction, Susano just wanted a good goddamn time, all those are goals they'll never really attain, because there's always more time to rule, more poo poo to burn, more party to be had. But Hydaelyn's only task is to kill Zodiark, and there's only ONE Zodiark. Hydaelyn's the only primal that can actually win and then call it a day. And I want to see what happens when a primal is just... done.
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Mar 22, 2021 04:46
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Synthetic Auracite, like what the Garleans use in the Weapons, might be a better parallel. Of course, there's still the question of how the hell the Ascians got a bunch of Auracite on the 13th to turn into weapons to contain Primals to begin with since Auracite, true Auracite, seems to be a product of Ultima and Auracite of the Ultima flavor seems INTRINSICALLY bound into the concept of Weapons. (Fun fact! Sabik is a star in the constellation Ophiucus, the governing constellation for Edlibus.) EDIT: Is the story impliying Ultima was on the Source before the Sundering?
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Mar 22, 2021 04:50
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Cleretic posted:We've clashed with what could be considered 'good primals' before, but honestly, they've all had their own agendas that they were 'heroes' of in their own world. Ramuh was the Sylphs' wise and diplomatic leader (because they knew they needed one), Alexander recognized its own danger. Lakshmi's an interesting one in that she's essentially a goddess of love and harmony, it's just... love and harmony on someone else's terms. But that's still an extreme minority, and in all cases, ones where circumstances put us against them anyway. Depends on how self-aware the writers decide she is I suppose. If she's ultimately a construct, albeit an ancient and intelligent one, then she might just be all "Beep boop, Zodiark = Dead, time to shut down." You could conceivably go with the "I don't want to die" angle, or the "I'm so tired and ready to rest." angle. Plus, I'm curious about what all of that aether is going to do to the planet. I mean, Primal dies, the aether used to summon them returns to the planet. But that's always been on a fairly small scale, Bahamut being the biggest example but also skewed because of Allagan tech keeping him from actually vanishing all the way initially. Hydaelyn and Zodiark are magnitudes larger and more aether stuffed than Bahamut ever was, even in any reduced or weakened state they may be in. Plus they were summoned using the Full Ritual instead of the watered down one the Ascians gave the beast tribes in order to stir poo poo. It's going to be an incalculable infusion of ancient aether being returned to the planet that will probably make what happened to the Thirteenth look like a glass of spilled milk by comparison.
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Mar 22, 2021 04:57
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the_steve posted:It's going to be an incalculable infusion of ancient aether being returned to the planet that will probably make what happened to the Thirteenth look like a glass of spilled milk by comparison. Imagine a world transformed drastically by something WONDERFUL happening instead of something horrible, for a change?
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Mar 22, 2021 05:02
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