Coronavirus 2021: I Threw Up On My Sheep

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > Coronavirus 2021: I Threw Up On My Sheep

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

LonesomeCrowdedWest posted:

So here in Toronto my parents who are in their 70s are eligible to get AstraZeneca shots starting tomorrow. I�m glad they�re getting their shots, but would there any point in waiting for a Pfizer or moderna? Or just take whatever you can get as soon as possible? AstraZeneca is still pretty good right? Most of the bad press is from production delays? And that blood clot thing which ... seems like nothing.

Good news! If you are old you don�t get side effects from AstraZeneca, it�s still as effective though. The elderly tend to get fever and flu symptoms after the other two.

You will find the British mostly going �gahhhhh� and pointing the 18 million ? People who have had AZ without any evidence of blood clots and maybe some small evidence that there is a slightly increased risk in a rare existing condition that may or may not have been triggered, but that mostly effects women aged 35-45, which is me and I�m still getting my second AZ shot anyway.

Anyway the BBC updated the fact sheet for you to show your grandmas

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

# ? Mar 22, 2021 08:48

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# ? May 28, 2024 07:46

HazCat: May 4, 2009

People keep saying bloodclots are an X in a million risk for AstraZenca and the numbers really are not that simple. Almost everyone affected so far has been female and under 55, while the vast majority of the million vaccinated have been over 55 and you'd expect around half of them to be male. The actual risk could be 1 in 5000-10000*, and maybe even worse for women with a family history of blood clots, or women on the pill. We also have no evidence of how common it is generally, as we only have records of the cases that caused hospitilizations and deaths. And no information on whether this is a once off side effect or something that could cause increased risk of blooclots for life.

Basically, if you are not a woman under 55, get AZ. If you are a woman under 55 and you're comfortable getting AZ despite all the above, get AZ. But can we please not be lovely to the minority of women who are going to be entirely reasonably reiticent to get it until further investigation has been done into how this affects the specific group that is at risk for this side effect?

* basing this on the ~40 cases I've heard of, out of a million vaccinated, assuming 50% of those were male and 2/3rds of the remainder were over 55 because initial rollouts have almost entirely targeted aged care and retirees. If anyone has better stats for the countries involved and how they are vaccinating, I'd be interested in more accurate numbers.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 09:46

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

Not exactly because we have also done our NHS staff and carers who are overwhelmingly women under 55.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 10:09

pidan: Nov 6, 2012

HazCat posted:

People keep saying bloodclots are an X in a million risk for AstraZenca and the numbers really are not that simple. Almost everyone affected so far has been female and under 55, while the vast majority of the million vaccinated have been over 55 and you'd expect around half of them to be male. The actual risk could be 1 in 5000-10000*, and maybe even worse for women with a family history of blood clots, or women on the pill. We also have no evidence of how common it is generally, as we only have records of the cases that caused hospitilizations and deaths. And no information on whether this is a once off side effect or something that could cause increased risk of blooclots for life.

Basically, if you are not a woman under 55, get AZ. If you are a woman under 55 and you're comfortable getting AZ despite all the above, get AZ. But can we please not be lovely to the minority of women who are going to be entirely reasonably reiticent to get it until further investigation has been done into how this affects the specific group that is at risk for this side effect?

Yeah, this. The cases aren't randomly distributed.

The numbers are low enough that it may yet turn out the risk is minuscule even for women under 50, but we don't know that yet.
That said, men over 50 should not worry about this at all.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 10:10

Fame Douglas: Nov 20, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Even ignoring the likelihood of more women having been vaccinated than men, not getting the vaccine because of that minuscule risk for an illness that greatly increases the chance of developing blood clots seems ill-advised.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 10:43

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

1in 25 of the first dose, any dose, taken by the Under 55/vulnerable/care giver group prevents a severe case of covid. A pulmonary disease that can create blood clots.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 10:50

HazCat: May 4, 2009

Fame Douglas posted:

Even ignoring the likelihood of more women having been vaccinated than men, not getting the vaccine because of that minuscule risk for an illness that greatly increases the chance of developing blood clots seems ill-advised.

I'm in Australia, so my odds of catching covid are effectively nil and AstraZeneca is my only vaccine option. If we have another major breakout I would reevaluate the risk, but it's still not as simple as 'one in a million, it's safe to get' for women under 55. And even if I don't get it immediately, I only want to wait 2 or 3 months into our general population rollout to see how the stats look then. I'm not anti-vax, I just don't think caution is unwarranted in this case.

Also it's a bit funny that the risk is 'miniscule' in this context but 1-in-5000/1-in-10000 is roughly in the ballpark of the increased risk of bloodclots that birthcontrol causes, and doctors absolutely will refuse to prescribe women over 30 birthcontrol because that risk is 'unacceptably high'.

HazCat fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Mar 22, 2021

# ? Mar 22, 2021 10:58

Fame Douglas: Nov 20, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

In the end, we'll know soon enough whether it is just due to more women getting vaccinated or if something else is at play here.

HazCat posted:

doctors absolutely will refuse to prescribe women over 30 birthcontrol because that risk is 'unacceptably high'.

Maybe some doctors do, but that's not the common guidance at all.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 11:07

HazCat: May 4, 2009

Fame Douglas posted:

In the end, we'll know soon enough whether it is just due to more women getting vaccinated or if something else is at play here.

Yes, definitely. And since Australia's main rollout is going to be entirely AZ we should get solid stats here very quickly.

quote:

Maybe some doctors do, but that's not the common guidance at all.

I've been warned by multiple doctors that I should expect to discontinue the pill at 30, and to prepare to move onto other options like implants if I want to continue using birthcontrol. It probably varies a lot by region.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 11:23

Pastamania: Mar 5, 2012; You cannot know.
The things I've seen.
The things I've done.
The things he made me do.

Every single actual study by numerous different health agencies have all concluded that there is no heightened risk of blood clots from AZ now. The American's are the latest just last night. There's only so many different ways scientists can say it. It's safe and it stops you getting crippled with a horrific disease.

This is just descending into anti-vax territory now and some of you just need to gently caress right off with that poo poo before you actually do get someone killed. You know what does gently caress people up? Covid 19. Stop your evidence-less hand wringing and take your loving vaccine when your offered, Jesus Christ.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 11:45

HazCat: May 4, 2009

As long as there is no covid in my country I'm going to take the opportunity to be cautious. Sorry that makes you so mad.

And I'm going to continue to point out that the stats used currently by the media are bad, because they are, and bad science reporting is what decreases faith in good science.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 12:05

teen witch: Oct 9, 2012

Wish I had a vax to consider taking. I get to wait until �eventually� to hit that moral quandary. Oh well.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 12:11

vyst: Aug 25, 2009

teen witch posted:

Wish I had a vax to consider taking. I get to wait until �eventually� to hit that moral quandary. Oh well.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 12:12

HazCat: May 4, 2009

teen witch posted:

Wish I had a vax to consider taking. I get to wait until “eventually” to hit that moral quandary. Oh well.

I'm not eligible yet either, my original point was just that the current science reporting is bad and shouldn't be used to browbeat anyone, and that 'I want to wait and see more data' is not an antivax position.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 12:16

teen witch: Oct 9, 2012

This may be my emotional exasperation bleeding out here but I�ll take a water filled syringe with �koBid Nine9teen� scribbled in crayon on it.

I miss my mom. I won�t see my dog before she passes. I have little idea outside of �before Midsommar� when I�ll maybe get a shot and even then I�m real skeptical. I�m loving tired of feeling poorly lied to by a government, yoinked around by a pharma company and human indifference.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 12:22

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

I had AZ, am woman under 45, am still alive as are the millions of women in my demographic who have also been jabbed WITH NO CHUFFING INCREASE IN BLOOD CLOTS YOU ABSOLUTE GULLIBLE WEAPONS will be jabbed again.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 12:51

oxford_town: Aug 6, 2009

HazCat posted:

I've been warned by multiple doctors that I should expect to discontinue the pill at 30, and to prepare to move onto other options like implants if I want to continue using birthcontrol. It probably varies a lot by region.

it will depend on regional/national stances as well as doctors' individual tolerances of risk, but given that clot risk increases with age, there is a point at which it becomes neither defensible nor desirable to prescribe a treatment that could give someone a stroke, a DVT or a pulmonary embolus when there are other, safer contraceptive options.

(in the UK the only age cutoff is over-50, or over 35 & current cigarette smoker)

# ? Mar 22, 2021 13:05

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

I have never heard of the over 30 thing and every 30+ year old I know is on birth control. Definitely never heard if a doctor refusing to prescribe it.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 13:35

Fluffy Bunnies: Jan 10, 2009

if I die when I get my vax tomorrow, I hope my death thread is "we're glad that bitch is gone".

I have nothing to add to the bc thing because who needs bc when your husband is never around and your doctor doesn't care if you bleed to death or not? :lol:

For real though, I was told something similar in 2006 in Hawaii but I'd never heard anything like it since.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 13:45

teen witch: Oct 9, 2012

Fluffy Bunnies posted:

if I die when I get my vax tomorrow, I hope my death thread is "we're glad that bitch is gone".

I have nothing to add to the bc thing because who needs bc when your husband is never around and your doctor doesn't care if you bleed to death or not?

For real though, I was told something similar in 2006 in Hawaii but I'd never heard anything like it since.

I got the BC blood clot riot act when I smoked cigarettes and I quit that and got an IUD. I still see it warned here and in the US, always have seen it?

# ? Mar 22, 2021 13:52

Nam Taf: Jun 25, 2005; I am Fat Man, hear me roar!

HazCat posted:

People keep saying bloodclots are an X in a million risk for AstraZenca and the numbers really are not that simple. Almost everyone affected so far has been female and under 55, while the vast majority of the million vaccinated have been over 55 and you'd expect around half of them to be male. The actual risk could be 1 in 5000-10000*, and maybe even worse for women with a family history of blood clots, or women on the pill. We also have no evidence of how common it is generally, as we only have records of the cases that caused hospitilizations and deaths. And no information on whether this is a once off side effect or something that could cause increased risk of blooclots for life.

Basically, if you are not a woman under 55, get AZ. If you are a woman under 55 and you're comfortable getting AZ despite all the above, get AZ. But can we please not be lovely to the minority of women who are going to be entirely reasonably reiticent to get it until further investigation has been done into how this affects the specific group that is at risk for this side effect?

* basing this on the ~40 cases I've heard of, out of a million vaccinated, assuming 50% of those were male and 2/3rds of the remainder were over 55 because initial rollouts have almost entirely targeted aged care and retirees. If anyone has better stats for the countries involved and how they are vaccinating, I'd be interested in more accurate numbers.

NB: None of this necessarily invalidates your points, I'm just responding to your request for better stats.

Quoth the NHS from their w/e 14/03 report:

In the week ending 14th March an additional 1,698,869 people were reported to have received an NHS vaccination for COVID-19 in England. This took the total number of people vaccinated with at least one dose as of 14th March to 20,661,496 (45.4% of the population aged 16 and over).
Vaccinations to those aged 60 and over accounted for approximately 6 in 10 of the first dose vaccinations given as of 14th March, but the majority of people vaccinated in the week ending 14th March were aged under 60. As of 14th March, 1,992,909 people aged 55 to 59 and 6,169,566 people aged under 55 have been vaccinated with at least one dose.
Although there are variations by age group, overall a higher proportion of females than males have been vaccinated with at least one dose (50.0% of females aged 16 and over compared with 40.7% of males aged 16 and over).
Of those vaccinated, 1,110,156 people (2.4%) have received a 2nd dose, taking the total number of vaccinations given to 21,771,652. This proportion is highest in the 80+ age group, where approximately 1 in 5 of those vaccinated have received a 2nd dose (575,939).

So with 6,169,566 people under 55 being vaccinated, and a ratio of 50.0/(50.0+40.7) = 55.1% females to 44.9% males vaccinated, you can reasonably guess that about 3,401,084 females 16-55 have been vaccinated in England.

Obviously this assumes that 55/45 ratio extends into 55+ which you expect it to not given the much higher completion rate there, but I didn't bother going into that adjustment because I'm lazy. At a thumb-in-the-air guess, I think the females 16-55 would still be north of 3m total having had 1 dose if that were accounted for.

edit: someone please tell me if I cocked up the numbers. It's late and I'm trying to finish some work before bed

edit 2: I'm supremely stupid, I could've just clicked the actual data spreadsheet on the same site and seen that 3,835,473 females under 55 have received their first dose.

Nam Taf fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Mar 22, 2021

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:18

DrPlump: Oct 5, 2004; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Pastamania posted:

Every single actual study by numerous different health agencies have all concluded that there is no heightened risk of blood clots from AZ now. The American's are the latest just last night. There's only so many different ways scientists can say it. It's safe and it stops you getting crippled with a horrific disease.

This is just descending into anti-vax territory now and some of you just need to gently caress right off with that poo poo before you actually do get someone killed. You know what does gently caress people up? Covid 19. Stop your evidence-less hand wringing and take your loving vaccine when your offered, Jesus Christ.

I think there's an authoritarian line the pro vax people can cross and become the bad guys. Why do you care what other people do with their bodies if your vaccine will protect you?

My body my choice.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:24

Nam Taf: Jun 25, 2005; I am Fat Man, hear me roar!

DrPlump posted:

I think there's an authoritarian line the pro vax people can cross and become the bad guys. Why do you care what other people do with their bodies if your vaccine will protect you?

My body my choice.

That's a pretty poor take because a) not everyone can get vaccinated, b) no vaccine is 100% effective, c) enough people have that mindset and the disease remains sloshing around forever rather than disappearing, and d) those who don't take it act as a handy reservoir for continued evolution of the disease, potentially leading to strains that invalidate existing vaccines. I don't disagree with your point that pro vax can come across authoritarian and often browbeat rather than educate, but your justification is bad.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:26

DrPlump: Oct 5, 2004; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Nam Taf posted:

That's a pretty poor take because a) not everyone can get vaccinated, b) no vaccine is 100% effective, c) enough people have that mindset and the disease remains sloshing around forever rather than disappearing, and d) those who don't take it act as a handy reservoir for continued evolution of the disease, potentially leading to strains that invalidate existing vaccines. I don't disagree with your point that pro vax can come across authoritarian and often browbeat rather than educate, but your justification is bad.

The idea of violating someones bodily autotomy to overcome the coronavirus is tricky legal territory. I personally am not a fan of passing narrow carve out laws that apply "just this one time for this one thing" as they have tendency to establish legal precedence for further restrictions on human rights. For example if you are to argue this particular virus is an exception because of the large number of human lives lost perhaps we can violate bodily autonomy in other ways to preserve and replace the existing humans lost. If we had "temporarily" outlawed abortions the number of children born as a result would have more than replaced the lives lost due to covid19. If it just about RAW human lives without regards to rights we should have been letting the infected die while doctors focused on birthing new babies to replace them.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:35

Gone Fashing: Aug 4, 2004; KEEP POSTIN
I'M STILL LAFFIN

wtf are you talking about dude

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:39

HugeGrossBurrito: Mar 20, 2018

DrPlump posted:

I think there's an authoritarian line the pro vax people can cross and become the bad guys. Why do you care what other people do with their bodies if your vaccine will protect you?

My body my choice.

Not getting vaccinated hurts people who cant get vaccinated for medical reason you idiot

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:41

hbag: Feb 13, 2021

DrPlump posted:

I think there's an authoritarian line the pro vax people can cross and become the bad guys. Why do you care what other people do with their bodies if your vaccine will protect you?

My body my choice.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

me when abortion is exactly the same as getting vaccinated
you see, if i dont get an abortion, my pregnancy will spread to others who are unable to get abortions

are you loving brain damaged

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:43

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

Oh god.

I was vaccinated and my 18 year old son was vaccinated in the first group because we come in contact with 300 very vulnerable immunocompromised kiddies in wheelchairs. I am actually ok with anyone who has refused the vaccine and then passes it on to them being done for mass murder.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:45

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Wow.

They got probated but still - comparing vaccination to abortion is some real galaxy brain poo poo.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:51

HugeGrossBurrito: Mar 20, 2018

yeah im adding another day gently caress them

edit- also thread banned they can go be an idiot somewhere else it will take 12 hours to show up probes stack I think

HugeGrossBurrito fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Mar 22, 2021

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:53

hbag: Feb 13, 2021

HugeGrossBurrito posted:

yeah im adding another day gently caress them

king poo poo

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:53

Zugzwang: Jan 2, 2005; You have a kind of sick desperation in your laugh.; Ramrod XTreme

dwarf74 posted:

Wow.

They got probated but still - comparing vaccination to abortion is some real galaxy brain poo poo.

Without commenting on the politics of that particular poster since I don't know them, the right has been co-opting "my body my choice"-type arguments wrt masks for some time. Doesn't surprise me at all that they would extend it to vaccinations.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:54

Gone Fashing: Aug 4, 2004; KEEP POSTIN
I'M STILL LAFFIN

doing calculus about how many abortions we need to stop to replace the people killed by coronavirus (?) just normal gbs poo poo

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:56

hbag: Feb 13, 2021

"MY BODY MY CHOICE" i screech, as i take a massive poo poo in your fridge

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:57

Snowglobe of Doom: Mar 30, 2012; sucks to be right

Zugzwang posted:

Without commenting on the politics of that particular poster since I don't know them, the right has been co-opting "my body my choice"-type arguments wrt masks for some time. Doesn't surprise me at all that they would extend it to vaccinations.

Yep

They've also been co-opting slavery arguments

..... but the anti-vax crowd have been doing this for a while as well

E: oh dang

Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Mar 22, 2021

# ? Mar 22, 2021 14:58

Zugzwang: Jan 2, 2005; You have a kind of sick desperation in your laugh.; Ramrod XTreme

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

They've also been co-opting slavery arguments

# ? Mar 22, 2021 15:03

hbag: Feb 13, 2021

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

They've also been co-opting slavery arguments

if it were akin to slavery surely they would be incredibly onboard with it, no?

# ? Mar 22, 2021 15:05

explosivo: May 23, 2004; Fueled by Satan

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

E: oh dang

Lmao

# ? Mar 22, 2021 15:09

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

I don't know what's so hard to understand here, in order to solve coronavirus we just need women to be forced to act as baby incubators for a few years, it's so simple guys, jeez

# ? Mar 22, 2021 15:10

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# ? May 28, 2024 07:46

Fluffy Bunnies: Jan 10, 2009

HugeGrossBurrito posted:

yeah im adding another day gently caress them

edit- also thread banned they can go be an idiot somewhere else it will take 12 hours to show up probes stack I think

huge good burrito

antivax people are gross

dwarf74 posted:

I don't know what's so hard to understand here, in order to solve coronavirus we just need women to be forced to act as baby incubators for a few years, it's so simple guys, jeez

I'd be the incubator that shorts out halfway through and catches on fire because I was bought half-price at Tractor Supply.

# ? Mar 22, 2021 15:16

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