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that freudian slip god loving drat hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahaha "we don't condone racism against any group"
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Mar 22, 2021 05:32
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found his handler  https://forum-network.org/speakers/olbert-kyle/ quote:Free #EastTurkistan, #Tibet, #HongKong. Storyteller. Dragon slayer. Free agent. Banned in China. 🏳️🌈 here's him on Bannon's web show so the libs feel fine about canceling him https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=217852136155525
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Mar 22, 2021 05:44
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Kurnugia posted:from the perspective of leftist criticism of the USSR and Maoist China, the argument seems to be that the appropriation of surplus value from existing industries to fund investment in new industries and other crap in the state budget is non-marxist and exploitative, but im having a hard time understanding how new investment capital is supposed to be accrued without such capital being in some way sourced from the surplus value of actual workers. so from an anarchist and a believer in neozapatismo: you've touched on the biggest issue that's often overlooked in anarchist thought. basically, it is true that planning an economy works great especially in situations of crisis, which by necessity a socialist project will be in a capitalist world. successful anarchists don't balk from planning. the idea is to avoid a top-down hierarchy, and indeed most modern anarchists look towards bottom-up organisation - as you've mentioned, free association and federalism. the planning happens cooperatively. this sort of system is in place in the zapatista communes, and in rojava, so it's not a thing without actual praxis - one of those projects numbers a million people + a worldwide web of organisations to create a distribution network for goods and information to avoid being crushed by capital (zapatistas; some orgs i help do collab with them), the other is a more localised project numbering over 2 million people. there are a few ways pressure is exerted on each commune to stay a part of the federal thing. for one, the planning is cooperative - if you don't play nice, you don't get the poo poo you need to produce stuff you can produce, that's the stick. the carrot is each commune gets a say what they can produce without exploitation and what they need to do it. a good example is zapatista coffee coops; they provide most of the income for the whole project, and you would think that would give them a great place to play king poo poo. but, they rely on food from other communes; and even if the capitalist decided to subsidise everything, the worldwide network of distribution zapatistas have with foreign anarchist/marxist orgs actually means their coffee would cease to be competitive on the market if they stepped away, due to extra costs. so that is a safeguard. other pressures are that all zapatista coops are trained in exerting pressure both peaceful and violent, it's sort of a mutually assured destruction situation. which leads me to my next point, and ultimately, this is an absolute truth: a radical democracy is participatory, voluntary. if a commune wants to step out despite the numerous own goals from the pressures described, it can. that is the risk of self-determination. and this is where key to working anarchism comes: you cannot do it quick. you cannot have an anarchist vanguard (though you can have an anarchist revolution, but conditions for it are radically different than an ml revolution). because it depends on the education of 'the people', it depends on most of the commune buying into socialism, into its ideas. in effect, you need a lot of the preconditions Engels and Marx described as required for pure stateless communism, because that's exactly what you're attempting to implement. in the zapatista community, their education and their way of life reinforces into the idea of empowering the project, and basically everyone living there is bought into it. that's what ultimately binds the whole thing together, but it cannot be jumpstarted with a vanguard, it has to be built first and that takes time. indeed, zapatistas expanded massively two years ago - but they did it after a decade long peaceful campaign from neighbouring localities buying into the project, getting educated in what's needed for it - kropotkin style anarchocommunism, bookchin style federation building and ideas from marxism-leninism. Many zapatista books/works mention the one contingent of guys who refused to work or communes that played hardball, but ultimately they always come to an understanding, and they always unite against any neoliberal pressure, whether violent or monetary. but they do it through dialogue and a mutual materialist understanding that was spread through the community. you cannot turn the entire US into anarchy tomorrow, because it's not gonna work, because the conditions aren't there. for that reason im quite sympathetic to ml thought even if i think its mistaken, i understand the importance and appeal of improving things here and now, especially in light of the spectre global warming. but one has to recognise the shortcomings there too, and also recognise that you can do anarchist praxis in very small scale inside capitalism far better than you can ml, and build a local community - as long as you understand materialism and aren't an anarkiddy too. as far as the USSR goes, the biggest problem was that there were 'alternative' classes to the bourgoisie created by it, due to corruption and cronyism. a lot of it fell down country lines for satellite states, too. because of that, the perception of socialist teaching was that it was bullshit, and preconditions required to go a step further never materialised. and tensions in sattelite states naturally rippled towards USSR itself, because of the centralised planning getting thrown out of whack. if you want I can give you my detailed perspective on how the whole socialist education thing completely crashed and burned in my own country and ruined leftism for probably generations, that country being Poland. I do not know enough about China to comment, except that I recall numbers saying that capitalist ownership is on the rise - but that may just be my imaginings so I accept I may be wrong. personally I think it's problematic from a socialist standpoint, but one cannot deny they brought up a billion people from starvation into not that, and that's something to be commended and definitely due to the socialist ideas that they implement. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 07:06
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before the cold war started in earnest and the western media needed to immediately convince everyone across the world that russia was basically mordor, the ussr was described exactly as you're describing rojava or the zapatistas - federated, communal, bottom-up, willing to exert discipline where necessary but generally being a collective project with popular support, etc marxism-leninism that has been adapted to local conditions in light of historical experience is called "marxism-leninism"
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Mar 22, 2021 08:12
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Ferrinus posted:before the cold war started in earnest and the western media needed to immediately convince everyone across the world that russia was basically mordor, the ussr was described exactly as you're describing rojava or the zapatistas - federated, communal, bottom-up, willing to exert discipline where necessary but generally being a collective project with popular support, etc Eh. There were areas where it was, but there were many others where it wasn't. It also quickly got less so under Stalin's paranoia. To bring a concrete example, both Rojava and especially the Zap have almodt overnight eliminated political and police repression while the role of police both open and secret only grew as the years in USSR went by, and that started well before 2ww. And Rojava is a literal warzone while the zap territory in rebellion was under both cartel and local state pressure all this time so it's not like they have developed in a nice vacuum either. Regardless, I do agree the differences between the trains of thought aren't irreconcilable and that both ML and anarchism should adapt to conditions - it is no coincidence Marcos is an ML himself who helped start one of the two biggest projects with mostly anarchist praxis (he did so after the vanguard rebellion did not give results he hoped for) dex_sda fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 08:48
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i think you're mistaking repression applied against the community party by a combination of its leaders and the wider people for repression applied against the people. on one hand i know it was a soviet practice to do bottom-up community justice (not in the sense of mobs, in the sense of like, everyone who happens to be in the train car deliberates on if and how to punish one guy who violated propriety) and on the other hand i'm pretty sure it's a small slice of rojava's parties - the ML ones - who actually enforce security and enjoy a de facto monopoly on force. rojava does have police and militias who put terrorists in jail to be clear i think the zapatista model of policing is great and don't fault either of the territories you've mentioned for how they go about dealing with interpersonal harm, but i think we're talking about differences of degree, not in kind, because communism is the real movement that abolishes the present state of things whose conditions result from the premises now in existence
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Mar 22, 2021 09:21
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Ferrinus posted:i think you're mistaking repression applied against the community party by a combination of its leaders and the wider people for repression applied against the people. on one hand i know it was a soviet practice to do bottom-up community justice (not in the sense of mobs, in the sense of like, everyone who happens to be in the train car deliberates on if and how to punish one guy who violated propriety) and on the other hand i'm pretty sure it's a small slice of rojava's parties - the ML ones - who actually enforce security and enjoy a de facto monopoly on force. rojava does have police and militias who put terrorists in jail I understand what you're getting at, but there is a qualitative difference between the level of repression that happened in the USSR even at it's inception but especially as time went on and what the direction is in Zapatismo or even in Rojava despite a slightly more solid ML bent in the army there. By which I mean as time goes on Zap have completely eliminated prisons while that stuff flourished hard enough in USSR that soviet prisons were famously hellish and a breeding ground for professional criminals by the 40s, 50s and 60s, to say nothinh of the 80s. You can only attribute so much to external neoliberal pressure imo, at some point an internal failure has to be considered. My thesis is Zap policing gets better with time because the whole project gets to truly influence stuff - famously, the completely voluntary inebriant prohibition is a great example; this is something that lacked in the USSR. Similarly, education was under control of the USSR but by the end of the project, you had the proletariat completely uneducated in the ways of Marxism. A lot of people point at how after USSR fell people started missing it as a great argument for how good it was but I always thought that also describes just how big a failure it was. It had the entire education department and yet before it fell people were unaware how they would be hurt by it falling apart. Contrast with zapatista territories where each commune (and kids themselves!) controls education and yet you end up with ardent socialists for a population and 12 year old kids making novel protest strategies against global capital which get used by adults cos they're so good; as well as the best hospitals and doctors in the whole area. Fwiw I think a better example of ML doing good is Cuba and I will stan that state even as an anarchist with OBJECTIONS, but it did quite a bunch of stuff differently and more equitably than USSR even if it was more of a regime than EZLN or Rojava. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 09:38
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how hellish soviet prisons are depends on where you are in history. they're at their worst literally during the nazi invasion, but at other times you've got stories of prisoners launching hunger strikes because they want more up-to-date newspapers in the library and extended recreation hours (and it bears repeating again that the most famous and concentrated repression was directed against the communist party by other elements of the communist party, rather than being some kind of generalized terror regime). it's not like the soviet populace didn't learn marxist economics along with standard math and history or whatever, or didn't realize at the time that the fall of the ussr would be bad - there's a famous ussr-wide referendum in which like 70% or more voted against dissolution, but of course gorby went ahead anyway, after having liberalized and hosed up the economy over the past howevermany years, because the ussr was always playing with bigger table stakes than any other socialist state save maybe china and was always at the center of the western bullseye rather than moldering on some to-do list somewhere i don't think we never hear about the evils of the elzn on the nightly news because they're uniquely unimpeachable, i think they're just too far down the docket... for now
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Mar 22, 2021 09:59
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Oh sure, there's you know, 70 years of history that USSR had so you can't talk about a thing being a thing all the time, but let's not forget that Zapatistas are going strong for almost three decades and all their things continue going in the progressive direction unabated by outside influence from brutal cartels and west funded militias while USSR had lots of ups and downs and a lot of it was at the whim of the current head of state - even if some of them like Lenin admitted a lot of criticism and pressure from below I guess my point is the difference in the actual degree of bottom-up governance, where zapatistas follow mostly anarchist praxis and want more more more and mostly continue improving vs. ussr which was not so keen on that for I would venture to say a large majority of it's existence. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 10:06
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dex_sda posted:I understand what you're getting at, but there is a qualitative difference between the level of repression that happened in the USSR even at it's inception but especially as time went on and what the direction is in Zapatismo or even in Rojava despite a slightly more solid ML bent in the army there. By which I mean as time goes on Zap have completely eliminated prisons while that stuff flourished hard enough in USSR that soviet prisons were famously hellish and a breeding ground for professional criminals by the 40s, 50s and 60s, to say nothinh of the 80s. You can only attribute so much to external neoliberal pressure imo, at some point an internal failure has to be considered. My thesis is Zap policing gets better with time because the whole project gets to truly influence stuff - famously, the completely voluntary inebriant prohibition is a great example; this is something that lacked in the USSR. the difference there is that ezln and ypg haven't led each of their respective countries into mass rapid industrialization programs unparalleled in history, nor were they managing hundreds of millions of people. i'm the farthest thing from a marxist leninist but i ascribe the atrocities of mao and stalin more to material reality than moral shortcomings (that's not to deny their agency in the matter) also cuba had its own prisons and torture problems. i mean ffs, it shipped thousands of people with mental illness to the u.s. to troll it. russia and china only look worse because their prisoners, deaths, etc. are measured nominally and not per capita
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Mar 22, 2021 10:07
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the zapatistas are being tolerated because they're sitting in some strategically insignificant jungle very far away and pose exactly zero threat to the capitalist world order if the future you want is a system contingent on the capitalist world not being bothered to crush you then sure, there's your model, but i personally would like a somewhat more secure existence
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Mar 22, 2021 10:15
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Yossarian-22 posted:the difference there is that ezln and ypg haven't led each of their respective countries into mass rapid industrialization programs unparalleled in history, nor were they managing hundreds of millions of people. i'm the farthest thing from a marxist leninist but i ascribe the atrocities of mao and stalin more to material reality than moral shortcomings (that's not to deny their agency in the matter) Maybe, but that brings into question whether the industrialization at such a rapid rate was a good idea. It would be one thing if they managed to transform into actual communism, but they haven't, whereas EZLN is more like that even despite industrial shortcomings. Of course USSR had to contend with incoming industrial war while EZLN built it's resilience on the ability of communes to do guerilla warfare, but either way, something to consider. And yeah Cuba had its huge problems but their project ended much better than USSR did so that must be acknowledged from a materialist standpoint. Similarly I don't consider USSR the biggest evil ever despite my anarchism, I think progressivism got a huge boost from 1917. I just think we can do even better
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Mar 22, 2021 10:18
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lmao peak loving anarchism is theorycrafting about whether building a socialist state capable of surviving on the world stage and defending itself against genocidal aggression really was a good idea while sitting safely protected by the fact that you're too irrelevant to the capitalist world to even bother crushing
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Mar 22, 2021 10:44
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dex_sda posted:as far as the USSR goes, the biggest problem was that there were 'alternative' classes to the bourgoisie created by it, due to corruption and cronyism. a lot of it fell down country lines for satellite states, too. because of that, the perception of socialist teaching was that it was bullshit, and preconditions required to go a step further never materialised. and tensions in sattelite states naturally rippled towards USSR itself, because of the centralised planning getting thrown out of whack. if you want I can give you my detailed perspective on how the whole socialist education thing completely crashed and burned in my own country and ruined leftism for probably generations, that country being Poland. i would very much like to read your perspective on that. what books would you recommend for someone like me, who doesnt actually know much about neozapatista theory beyond watching 'a place called chiapas'? incidentally, the same question for understanding the theory behind YPG's organization. ill write up a longer post when i get off probation next time for about 30 seconds
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Mar 22, 2021 11:02
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Cerebral Bore posted:lmao peak loving anarchism is theorycrafting about whether building a socialist state capable of surviving on the world stage and defending itself against genocidal aggression really was a good idea while sitting safely protected by the fact that you're too irrelevant to the capitalist world to even bother crushing the gently caress are you even doing in the communism thread if youre not here for the inane theorycrafting?
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Mar 22, 2021 11:03
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dex_sda posted:I understand what you're getting at, but there is a qualitative difference between the level of repression that happened in the USSR even at it's inception but especially as time went on and what the direction is in Zapatismo or even in Rojava despite a slightly more solid ML bent in the army there. By which I mean as time goes on Zap have completely eliminated prisons while that stuff flourished hard enough in USSR that soviet prisons were famously hellish and a breeding ground for professional criminals by the 40s, 50s and 60s, to say nothinh of the 80s. You can only attribute so much to external neoliberal pressure imo, at some point an internal failure has to be considered. My thesis is Zap policing gets better with time because the whole project gets to truly influence stuff - famously, the completely voluntary inebriant prohibition is a great example; this is something that lacked in the USSR. There's also a qualitative difference between the level of opposition that existed to the USSR (beginning with both sides of a world war dropping the world war in a particular theater in order to team up and try and stomp the reds) and the level of opposition that existed to the EZLN (a week-and-a-half armed standoff with Mexican police and a few army units.) I'm not sure the EZLN would have the chance to be so doing-it-right-this-time if the entire US Army had poured in in the fall of 2018 to make the timing line up with October to Barbarossa, either. Also, I'd add, a qualitative difference between their starting points. Capital-R Reformism has a specific discredited meaning in the history of Communism, but Communism, especially bottom-up Communism, does find most of its success in sweeping reforms of existing processes to replace the class power balance rather than the entire process itself (viz. Soviet, and prior and later Chinese, industrialization vs. some of the failed choices made during the Great Leap Forward, or pretty much the entire results of Pol Pot's insistence on a Year Zero to build anew rather than a Year 1917 to rebuild without chains.) From that angle, the Gulag system, as abhorrent as it sounds to modern ears and as much as it mostly succeeded in recreating a lumpenproletariat, was I believe a pretty solid improvement on katorga that failed to improve enough fast enough, the contradictions of the Russian penal tradition being insufficiently resolved far more than some fresh new hell. E: Essentially what I'm saying is that comparing USSR and MAREZ corrections is necessarily two comparisons, "how ideal was it" and "how successful was the revolution at improving conditions and results", and while MAREZ easily wins the first, it's nowhere near as useful to comparing the ideologies as they exist in 2021 as the second which is a far closer race. The actual departure now seems to be over the utility of internal exile, something which also has a stronger material basis in the US or Russia or China due to their prevalence of remote yet internal frontier. Mandoric fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 11:10
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Cerebral Bore posted:lmao peak loving anarchism is theorycrafting about whether building a socialist state capable of surviving on the world stage and defending itself against genocidal aggression really was a good idea while sitting safely protected by the fact that you're too irrelevant to the capitalist world to even bother crushing remember when anarchists began attacking communists during the Spanish civil war which then allowed franco’s christian fascists to steamroll them both into ovens? that sums up my views of anarchists aside from the insane contradictions in the ideology and the greatest owning of socialists/communists since ww2 was the right-wing convincing the lumpenprole masses that dumbass individualists like anarchists and liberals are socialist
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Mar 22, 2021 11:26
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Mandoric posted:There's also a qualitative difference between the level of opposition that existed to the USSR (beginning with both sides of a world war dropping the world war in a particular theater in order to team up and try and stomp the reds) and the level of opposition that existed to the EZLN (a week-and-a-half armed standoff with Mexican police and a few army units.) I'm not sure the EZLN would have the chance to be so doing-it-right-this-time if the entire US Army had poured in in the fall of 2018 to make the timing line up with October to Barbarossa, either. this ignores the for the most part two decades of state funded paramilitary and cartel action against ezln. fwiw I don't disagree there is a difference but you can't also ignore that proportionally to the size of the rebellion the mexican state and the drug trade are giant threats, which have been weathered. quote:Also, I'd add, a qualitative difference between their starting points. Capital-R Reformism has a specific discredited meaning in the history of Communism, but Communism, especially bottom-up Communism, does find most of its success in sweeping reforms of existing processes to replace the class power balance rather than the entire process itself (viz. Soviet, and prior and later Chinese, industrialization vs. some of the failed choices made during the Great Leap Forward, or pretty much the entire results of Pol Pot's insistence on a Year Zero to build anew rather than a Year 1917 to rebuild without chains.) From that angle, the Gulag system, as abhorrent as it sounds to modern ears and as much as it mostly succeeded in recreating a lumpenproletariat, was I believe a pretty solid improvement on katorga that failed to improve enough fast enough, the contradictions of the Russian penal tradition being insufficiently resolved far more than some fresh new hell. It's a salient point, though the mexican penal system wasn't a bag of roses in 1994 at all and ezln improved it to an astonishing degree. In 2003 there were two people incarcerated in what was then a 450k person project and that was atypically high; by comparison it'd be like the USSR having a total of 600 prisoners. Of course the scale makes such a comparison necessarily flawed but I think it's still illustrative of the gulf in achievements. Kurnugia: I'll write some stuff up when I get the chance in a few days, it's a bigger post because it would go into a timeline from 1939 to 1989 essentially. The tldr is really bad perception of R-M and Stalin's repressions post world war, followed by improvement in perception of socialism thanks to the electrification and other social programs, followed by squandering genuine will for more socialist reform (ie. increased proletarian ownership of the mode of production) at the turn of the 80s and a rationing crisis which brought into relief the class divide between apparatchiks and proletariat created a perfect breeding ground for the second, neoliberal Solidarność and western propaganda. If you know Spanish 'Luchas "muy otras"' is great, as are Subcommandante Marcos' translated collected works, they will hit right both for marxists as well as anarchists. For YPG my knowledge is less detailed but you really want to read Bookchin, that's the blueprint, and 'Revolution In Rojava: Democratic Autonomy and Womens Liberation in Syrian Kurdistan' is good if a few years old. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 11:36
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The rationing happened because the Soviet Union literally ran out of cash and essentially broke.
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Mar 22, 2021 12:03
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Ardennes posted:The rationing happened because the Soviet Union literally ran out of cash and essentially broke. Oh yeah, I wasn't implying otherwise, just that it brought into relief how there was a gulf between party members + corrupt parts of the system and regular people, specifically in Poland.
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Mar 22, 2021 12:08
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dex_sda posted:this ignores the for the most part two decades of state funded paramilitary and cartel action against ezln. fwiw I don't disagree there is a difference but you can't also ignore that proportionally to the size of the rebellion the mexican state and the drug trade are giant threats, which have been weathered. Yeah, my description of the EZLN was a bit flippant (and of course Rojava, which as we both agree has a lot more ML in its conception of state force and a lot more MLs in its existing formations through which the state uses force, has some serious chops when discussing outsized hostile armies on and within their borders.) I don't want to dismiss their efforts, just argue that Lenin and cabinet were navigating the civil war, then Stalin and cabinet the runup to WW2, with a lot less roadmap, foes far more ideologically motivated and able to "crush Communism" with normal war far more effectively than anything but wholesale genocide would do to the potential of future indigenous or Kurd movements, and honestly a lot more perceived now-or-never historical pressure to work out the kinks later. And I'm definitely not downplaying the 90s Mexican penal system, just pointing out that the output of Russian labor camps, from the weakest moments of Nicholas II to the harshest moments of Stalin, developed into a slight majority of reformed ex-cons and a notable minority of hardened ex-cons from a slight majority of buried-on-the-premises ex-cons and a notable minority of still-there cons. It's hard to see the gulf between potentially-reformative punishment and restorative reform, when you're looking at the ocean between prolonged execution and potentially-reformative punishment, in my opinion.
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Mar 22, 2021 12:44
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dex_sda posted:Kurnugia: I'll write some stuff up when I get the chance in a few days, it's a bigger post because it would go into a timeline from 1939 to 1989 essentially. The tldr is really bad perception of R-M and Stalin's repressions post world war, followed by improvement in perception of socialism thanks to the electrification and other social programs, followed by squandering genuine will for more socialist reform (ie. increased proletarian ownership of the mode of production) at the turn of the 80s and a rationing crisis which brought into relief the class divide between apparatchiks and proletariat created a perfect breeding ground for the second, neoliberal Solidarność and western propaganda. i know zero spanish, guess i should add it to my list of languages to be learning currently, right after Farsi and Nigerian... anyway, ill be waiting with bated breath for the polish post! and yeah, i know i shouldve already read bookchin by this point
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Mar 22, 2021 12:46
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Kurnugia posted:i know zero spanish, guess i should add it to my list of languages to be learning currently, right after Farsi and Nigerian... anyway, ill be waiting with bated breath for the polish post! and yeah, i know i shouldve already read bookchin by this point I'm learning Nigerian too.
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Mar 22, 2021 13:59
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https://twitter.com/youngsocialistz/status/1373768079780548610 muh sides 
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Mar 22, 2021 14:01
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:I'm learning Nigerian too. learn mandarin instead. china is the 21st century superpower
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Mar 22, 2021 14:03
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finally, someone to stick up for the loving cops
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Mar 22, 2021 14:15
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:I'm learning Nigerian too. cool. they keep calling it pidgeon english, and its weird
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Mar 22, 2021 14:25
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Atrocious Joe posted:Are the mods going to ban the State Department posters now too OK baizuo fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 15:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:lmao peak loving anarchism is theorycrafting about whether building a socialist state capable of surviving on the world stage and defending itself against genocidal aggression really was a good idea while sitting safely protected by the fact that you're too irrelevant to the capitalist world to even bother crushing tbqh that's unfair on that regard, given relative scale and contexts they are doing very well because they get a lot of heat dex_sda mentioned this already but the Zapatistas fight skirmishes and guerrilla warfare to this day against narc paramilitary besides the Mexican and Central American armed forces. it is just that isn't reported because drawing attention to an actual commune might be too inspirational for the proles the thing is that, basing myself on conjecture from my own small understanding of the political economy involved, Chiapas can very well become victim of its own success should the scale of things grow. The more people involved and more sophisticated the activities related to the development of that society become, the greater the complexity of its material/economic base. Wild hyperbolic example for the sake of argument: the Zapatistas grow in number and power and popularity and claim the entirety of the Yucatán Peninsula as its own political entity. Assuming they have the means to survive a civil war with American interference, suddenly you have a large territory with poor infrastructure requiring all the needs of modern civilization that depended on the integrated economic function. Are there pharmaceutical plants in Yucatan? If no, poo poo better get buckled up ASAP because you can loving bet there is a blockade and trading sanctions coming up. If there are, is there any basic chemical industry to provide the necessary inputs? and so and and on Here's where I think anarchist political economy finds itself between a rock and a hard place. In order to satisfy the political principles of anarchy in relation to the needs of the people, given our current understanding of politics, sociology, economic thought (not mainstream economics but the general idea of satisfying the material needs of society), a state will necessarily emerge as consequence and necessity of the infrastructure required to provide those needs. To troll on Bakunin: it can truly very well be the People's State, but ultimately it will still a be a state lmao
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Mar 22, 2021 16:03
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given the relative scale and context the zapatistas don't get anything close to what the ussr did and you know it
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Mar 22, 2021 16:31
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OK baizuo posted:https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/
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Mar 22, 2021 16:50
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https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1374019959945322505
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Mar 22, 2021 17:20
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Cerebral Bore posted:given the relative scale and context the zapatistas don't get anything close to what the ussr did and you know it the ussr went through its worst stalinist atrocities at a time of detente. dekulakisation was underway the same year america formally recognised the ussr. the great purge happened when american companies were busy building factories for mechanisation.
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Mar 22, 2021 17:26
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you know, I am fascinated as to what happens when you throw a spanner into a large machine how fast would it take something like that to sputter, what would you say? a minute?
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Mar 22, 2021 17:28
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:I'm learning Nigerian too. who say learn 9ja language, dis maga dey vex oooo, big big wahala i say swears online fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 17:45
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dex_sda posted:Oh sure, there's you know, 70 years of history that USSR had so you can't talk about a thing being a thing all the time, but let's not forget that Zapatistas are going strong for almost three decades and all their things continue going in the progressive direction unabated by outside influence from brutal cartels and west funded militias while USSR had lots of ups and downs and a lot of it was at the whim of the current head of state - even if some of them like Lenin admitted a lot of criticism and pressure from below i don't believe the ezln is uniquely "bottom-up" compared to previously-existing socialist states. i applaud the zapatistas for theoretical advancements in how to resolve social problems without recourse to the state repressive apparatus, but this isn't actually a sign that the ezln is horizontal while the ussr was vertical or something - the popular understanding of the role and scope of
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Mar 22, 2021 19:03
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Ferrinus posted:i don't believe the ezln is uniquely "bottom-up" compared to previously-existing socialist states. i applaud the zapatistas for theoretical advancements in how to resolve social problems without recourse to the state repressive apparatus, but this isn't actually a sign that the ezln is horizontal while the ussr was vertical or something - the popular understanding of the role and scope of that begs the question: how were other municipal affairs handled? how was a fire reasonably fought in the USSR? how were ambulance drivers before the stories of the post-collapse Ukraine and joose? I keep reading through the older documents stickied by that one poster, but that's what I was looking for, I think: the People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs or, at least, it's a step in the right direction, bureaucracy is quite challenging lol
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Mar 22, 2021 19:06
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Victory Position posted:that begs the question: how were other municipal affairs handled? how was a fire reasonably fought in the USSR? how were ambulance drivers before the stories of the post-collapse Ukraine and joose? I keep reading through the older documents stickied by that one poster, but that's what I was looking for, I think: the People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs you may have seen me link this before but if not it's a great from-the-ground perspective circa like 1940 Ferrinus posted:https://drive.google.com/file/d/174Y2CYVVaMumINW1ApKRO5DiC7JOyCI8/view
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Mar 22, 2021 19:08
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Imagine being an Anarchist when Marxism exists lmao
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Mar 22, 2021 19:57
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commielingus posted:Imagine being an Anarchist when Marxism exists lmao it's understandable because the popular understanding of marxism is that lenin and all his pals had never heard of the idea of taking a vote
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Mar 22, 2021 20:07
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