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VitalSigns posted:
wait why doesn't this apply to the factories emitting said pollution? smith and wesson may not be responsible for what individuals do with their guns, but dow chemical is absolutely responsible for directly emitting massive amounts of pollution into the air
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Mar 12, 2021 19:28
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VideoTapir posted:He sees himself as the rich dude unfrozen on TNG whose first concern is his portfolio Except that dude was good at something because he figured out the Romulans were bluffing at the end of the episode.
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Mar 12, 2021 19:36
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Mr Interweb posted:wait why doesn't this apply to the factories emitting said pollution? smith and wesson may not be responsible for what individuals do with their guns, but dow chemical is absolutely responsible for directly emitting massive amounts of pollution into the air Because there are other companies and you can't prove whose poo poo you breathed.
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Mar 12, 2021 19:45
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Harold Fjord posted:Because there are other companies and you can't prove whose poo poo you breathed. what if you live in a small town where there's only one factory and you're right next to it?
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Mar 13, 2021 00:48
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Mr Interweb posted:wait why doesn't this apply to the factories emitting said pollution? smith and wesson may not be responsible for what individuals do with their guns, but dow chemical is absolutely responsible for directly emitting massive amounts of pollution into the air Oh it does and you can sue Dow Chemical for harming you with their air pollution, if you can trace every molecule of poison you ever inhaled back to their factory specifically and not to the refinery next door or the coal plant or or or, then you can collect your restitution for Dow's particular portion of your injuries In other words, suing individual motorists for poisoning you with their lead exhaust is easy mode, because at least in theory you could write down every license plate that drives by you, good luck figuring out exactly whose sulfuric acid you're breathing or whatever E: Mr Interweb posted:what if you live in a small town where there's only one factory and you're right next to it? yeah then I think his system would work in your case, assuming Dow doesn't prevail on some tricky legal argument that maybe their smog all blew past you and you inhaled all that poison when you went on vacation idk but yea assuming a reasonable court system (or I guess in lolbertarian world that you have as much money as Dow and can afford a reasonable court rather than one chosen by them) then you'd be good here. I think jrod thinks the whole world is like this, one cow town with one polluter that you can sue, but you never would because they'd rationally calculate that you and your neighbors would all sue and that they would save money by not polluting you in the first place. E2: also assuming you live in such remote wilderness that pollution from factories thousands of miles away doesn't blow over and fall on your town like actually commonly happens, and why solving acid rain required a joint US-Canada effort because pollution in one country was blowing over to the other VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 13, 2021 |
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Mar 13, 2021 00:57
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Mr Interweb posted:a fun game to play with libertarians in my experience is to ask them what period of u.s. history was the closest to their economic ideal. if they're smart, they'll realize see, there's an obvious problem at that precise point
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Mar 13, 2021 02:24
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quote:... In other words, suing individual motorists for poisoning you with their lead exhaust is easy mode, because at least in theory you could write down every license plate that drives by you, good luck figuring out exactly whose sulfuric acid you're breathing or whatever Although, to be clear, in Libertopia there would not be license plates.
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Mar 13, 2021 04:16
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yello posted:Although, to be clear, in Libertopia there would not be license plates. Time to blow the dust off an old internet classic  :https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2016/05/atlas-shrugged-they-just-didnt-care/ Adam Lee posted:
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Mar 13, 2021 05:05
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My immersion! 
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Mar 13, 2021 08:02
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Mr Interweb posted:a fun game to play with libertarians in my experience is to ask them what period of u.s. history was the closest to their economic ideal. if they're smart, they'll realize they can't point to any period involving slavery, so that's the first nearly hundred years out the door already. I mean, the thread suggests otherwise.
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Mar 13, 2021 10:45
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Mr Interweb posted:a fun game to play with libertarians in my experience is to ask them what period of u.s. history was the closest to their economic ideal. if they're smart, they'll realize they can't point to any period involving slavery, so that's the first nearly hundred years out the door already. then of course you can't have anything after 1913 since that's when both the dreaded income tax and federal reserve was created, so that nixes another hundred years there. so you basically have the period between 1866 and 1912, and we can't go for that trust busting bastard, teddy roosevelt, we're left with the last half of the 19th century, i.e. the utopia known as *checks notes* the Gilded Age. If I was to make an off-the-cuff argument for the "ideal libertarian" time period in American history, the closest I would argue for would be pre-European settlement with the Natives themselves. No central government or currency, just independent tribes (co-ops) who sorted land ownership, land access, property issues and civil disputes communally and without required taxation, presumably only necessary tribute and labor for voluntarily staying in the tribe. Not knowing many fine details of Native society, I would guess that each individual was expected to contribute to the good of the tribe or be kicked out, so a purist libertarian might argue this wasn't "real Libertarianism" because of the threat of exile, but then one could counter that this is real libertarianism because leaving a group that doesn't agree with you is a right? This example probably wouldn't go over well if they're the specific "pro-white" type of libertarian. I tend to avoid excessively attacking or defending any given "flavor" of a political ideology, since apologeticists will just say "They're not real <ideology here>" but there are some definite tenets of most ideologies that can't be ignored or denied, so I'll certainly attack obvious hypocrisies within those.
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Mar 13, 2021 15:19
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Muscle Tracer posted:I can't remember... how do libertarians backflip their way out of reparations for indigenous people? It seems like manifest destiny was a pretty overt rejection of the non-aggression principle, but don't they have some bullshit about "well the savage didn't think he OWNED the land, because he shared it with others, so really our pioneer forefathers were the first OWNERS of the land"?
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Mar 13, 2021 15:36
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Mr Interweb posted:what if you live in a small town where there's only one factory and you're right next to it? Ah, but who's to say that didn't drift there on something or when an out of towner came by. I mean, there's heavy metals polluting everyone everywhere dating back to chernobyl so who's to say.
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Mar 13, 2021 15:45
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Jolly Jumbuck posted:I tend to avoid excessively attacking or defending any given "flavor" of a political ideology, since apologeticists will just say "They're not real <ideology here>" but there are some definite tenets of most ideologies that can't be ignored or denied, so I'll certainly attack obvious hypocrisies within those. I am with you. I also avoid attacking pithy named ideologies and avoid labelism/tribalism very fiercely. I agree with some ideas, I disagree with others and I loathe many as well, but political discourse these days is all about breaking people down into two campus so that everyone can say that they are the good guys and the others are the bad guys. That said, with the exception of the very few classical/left libertarians, there is essentially no redeeming qualities about any flavour of libertarianism and I have come to regard that term as anathema. Even the laissez-faire, non-racist libertarians who just want to smoke weed and not bother anyone I don't like because they tend to tacitly support an economic system that is hugely flawed and wretched even if they aren't hurting anyone. To put it another way, just the term libertarian has become a red flag that puts me on my guard.
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Mar 13, 2021 17:26
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So, I'm sure yall have heard by now about the NFT poo poo. non fungible tokens, they're called. And they don't give a flying gently caress if anyone owns what actually is made into a token. One of the people doing this got his account hacked, and all his tokens were stolen. This is what ended up happening. https://twitter.com/ithayla/status/1371541609242710019  https://twitter.com/ithayla/status/1371541610983399424  It gets better. 
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Mar 17, 2021 02:49
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what if anything was/is wrong with Vermin Supreme?
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Mar 17, 2021 12:42
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VitalSigns posted:Oh it does and you can sue Dow Chemical for harming you with their air pollution, if you can trace every molecule of poison you ever inhaled back to their factory specifically and not to the refinery next door or the coal plant or or or, then you can collect your restitution for Dow's particular portion of your injuries Sorry, Dow Chemical <Your Town> LLC shut down years ago and as a result no longer exists and has no assets so even with your judgement against them they cannot pay any liability. All those profits and assets that were passed to Dow Chemical <Other Country> well, it's hardly THEIR fault you got poisoned, that was all the work of Dow Chemical <Your Town>.
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Mar 17, 2021 14:43
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This ongoing series on the 30's libertarian movement and it's pipeline to fascist cultism seems relevant. At one point or another there have been long form profiles on just about all these people, like Richard Viguerie, but it's interesting to see how they tie together. Also, the non-aggression principle makes a cameo. https://davetroy.medium.com/the-big-history-behind-january-6th-part-1-anti-communism-domestic-surveillance-and-the-russian-824186ed6fd7
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Mar 17, 2021 15:39
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hooman posted:Sorry, Dow Chemical <Your Town> LLC shut down years ago and as a result no longer exists and has no assets so even with your judgement against them they cannot pay any liability. All those profits and assets that were passed to Dow Chemical <Other Country> well, it's hardly THEIR fault you got poisoned, that was all the work of Dow Chemical <Your Town>. This is basically how the entire mining industry works.
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Mar 18, 2021 04:25
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Aren't libertarians anti corporatism so they can't close, the guy can just be dead? Edit: Which is to say, there is still a personhood responsible, but your right to sue doesn't emerge until after he can no longer suffer the consequences.
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Mar 18, 2021 06:38
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piL posted:Aren't libertarians anti corporatism so they can't close, the guy can just be dead? Nominally anti-corporatist, but the "No True Scotsman" rule applies to all ideologies and especially libertarianism. Its simplicity in saying "No government except for essential functions" leads to many different interpretations of "essential functions". It's not as direct as the Republican party's contradictions to their tag line of "Less government, more freedom" but still noticeable in many circumstances.
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Mar 19, 2021 00:07
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I found another reason why people in alternate currencies can go gently caress themselves: it's currently impossible to find a PC video card because the fuckers are buying them up to farm more buttcoins. It literally costs more now for a good gaming video card as it did for the entire machine not long ago, combined with the increased pandemic demand and the scalpers, who can also boil in oil. Proof as if proof were needed that cryptocurrency assholes were human excrement.
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Mar 23, 2021 03:08
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E-Tank posted:So, I'm sure yall have heard by now about the NFT poo poo. non fungible tokens, they're called. And they don't give a flying gently caress if anyone owns what actually is made into a token. this is some good poo poo i know it's been asked since the invention of libertarianism but what did these idiots think would happen in their unregulated utopia? quote:I found another reason why people in alternate currencies can go gently caress themselves: it's currently impossible to find a PC video card because the fuckers are buying them up to farm more buttcoins. tell me about it 
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Mar 23, 2021 03:53
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JustJeff88 posted:I found another reason why people in alternate currencies can go gently caress themselves: it's currently impossible to find a PC video card because the fuckers are buying them up to farm more buttcoins. It literally costs more now for a good gaming video card as it did for the entire machine not long ago, combined with the increased pandemic demand and the scalpers, who can also boil in oil.
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Mar 23, 2021 04:40
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Technically the people buying up graphics cards aren't even doing that, they're hoping to mine out more bitcoins (however that works, I really don't care) so that they can get "free" money. Or at least enough money to cover the cost of the cards. I think a long while back it dipped past the point where the cost of power was usually more than new bitcoins were worth (especially since they're supposed to be deflationary with newer coins being harder to mine), and prospective miners often got involved in becoming parasites off of free or subsidized electricity that was supposed to be going to real humans for real needs. Maybe the price has gone back up to equalize things, I dunno.
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Mar 23, 2021 05:27
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They don't even have to get back the full cost of the cards + electricity. They just have to get back enough that it leaves them with more money and/or less risk than other means of money laundering or capital control evasion.
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Mar 23, 2021 06:31
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Don't forget about the not-insignificant number of butters who are returning their cards under warranty one day before it expires, or listing them on eBay as "lightly used, never overclocked, never used for mining" to make their filthy FIAT money back.
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Mar 23, 2021 07:32
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NGDBSS posted:You're giving them too much credit, because cryptocurrencies generally aren't used as currencies even by their proponents. They're just speculative instruments to be held onto until you can find someone else to buy them at a higher price than you did. Thread favorite divabot even talks about it in Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain, chapter 7 to be precise. I have heard. I believe someone in this thread call it 'a bunch of bearded sociopaths waiting to mash the betray button', or something similarly poetic. SlothfulCobra posted:Technically the people buying up graphics cards aren't even doing that, they're hoping to mine out more bitcoins (however that works, I really don't care) so that they can get "free" money. Or at least enough money to cover the cost of the cards. I didn't say it, but I am aware that they are gobbling up cards to mine coins and using tons of energy on a suffering planet to run those cards, all in order to have a currency that is unregulated. Hmm... I wonder why someone would go to so much trouble, waste and risk for an unregulated currency? Oh, wait, the only reason that someone would do that is because they hope to do something horribly immoral and illegal with said currency and they don't want to be caught. It's the high-tech version of people who complain about 'big gub'ment' - they are complaining because the government is stopping them from doing something heinous and horrible and, just like sadistic and vicious children, they resent authority telling them not to bully others. I'm sure that the Randroids would take a special delight in screwing over the poor for their own greed.
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Mar 23, 2021 15:34
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Wasn't Venezuela burning a ton of their oil to mine bitcoins to avoid the big (US) government oil embargo? Does that make Venezuela the most libertarian country? 
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Mar 23, 2021 15:49
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JustJeff88 posted:
My dream w/ regards to crypto is finding a way to rip off a bunch of crypto miners and getting rich off my stolen internet money and them having absolutely zero legal recourse because they were the ones who wanted any regulatory oversight exempted from their magic beans.
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Mar 23, 2021 15:53
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Willatron posted:My dream w/ regards to crypto is finding a way to rip off a bunch of crypto miners and getting rich off my stolen internet money and them having absolutely zero legal recourse because they were the ones who wanted any regulatory oversight exempted from their magic beans. Mine is to round up all the non-anarcho-libertarians and make them spend their lives serving the poor and unfortunate, but I like how you think. That comment telling the buttcoiner to 'buy justice' made me laugh so hard; it was wonderful poetic irony. I would love to see you nick a bunch of crypto and then sell it back to the same people from whom you took it. After all, it's untraceable by design. Then, to add the cherry on top, use most of the money to feed and house the poor. Digital Robin Hood. Edit: Changed vitriolic wording JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 15:59
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JustJeff88 posted:Mine is to round up all the non-anarcho-libertarians and make them spend their lives as slaves for the state Let’s not not do this weird power fantasy thanks
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Mar 23, 2021 16:02
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Let's be honest, the ones who do already have basically those jobs aren't learning a thing from it.
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Mar 23, 2021 17:11
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They aren't mining bitcoin to do illegal things with, they're mining it because number go up. Bitcoin is a permanent public ledger, the main illegal thing it's useful is blackmail because transactions are irreversible.
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Mar 23, 2021 17:45
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:They aren't mining bitcoin to do illegal things with, they're mining it because number go up. Bitcoin is a permanent public ledger, the main illegal thing it's useful is blackmail because transactions are irreversible. I dunno, I hear it's pretty good for drugs.
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Mar 23, 2021 17:51
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Willatron posted:I dunno, I hear it's pretty good for drugs. You're something like 5 years late on that bud.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:00
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:You're something like 5 years late on that bud. I buy mine with regular money, so I never really got on it to begin with, it's the most oft cited thing I see people say when they talk about what Crypto is actually use to buy as a currency. Drugs and child porn.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:02
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:They aren't mining bitcoin to do illegal things with, they're mining it because number go up. Bitcoin is a permanent public ledger, the main illegal thing it's useful is blackmail because transactions are irreversible. Libertarians are obsessed with bigger numbers at any cost, I won't dispute that, and I wouldn't be surprised if blackmail is part of stew. Nevertheless, it's silly to think that people trying to produce (at the expense of the planet and their peers) a non-traceable currency do not frequently intend to use it to exchange for things that are hideously illegal and/or profoundly immoral. Nobody buys heroine with a personal cheque and writes 'drugs' in the lower right corner.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:44
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What is stopping me from just making a second NFT and claiming your first one was a fake? E: By fake I mean I just claim you didn't have the rights to make an NFT or something else that accepts you have placed the item on the blockchain before me but not in the right way. HootTheOwl fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 03:54
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