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live with fruit posted:Batman seems much worse about this than most superheroes because he goes out and patrols, basically looking for a fight. The Avengers are typically only called in on bigger threats who have a volunteer army (though Iron Man 3 is a big exception, since the Extremis bombs are just victims of Killian's). Well there's lots of heroes like Spider Man or Daredevil who patrol and deal with lower level crime. Batman tends to have an edge and to some degree or anything terrorizes criminal. Its why a lot of version has a "Batman doesn't kill" rule since it sets a line for him. But then a number of versions of Batman do kill when "necessary" in battle. And some just do whenever. So it varies. In the big stuff like Justice League and Avengers you're dealing with war and soldiers on a battle field and that's a whole other moral quandary. Like people focus on Spider Man killing aliens in Endgame, and yeah, that's messed up, but also there rally isn't a "don't kill" option in a battle field so... its a complicated thing and I think Falcon & Winter Soldier probably tried to defuse that a bit by making Falcon's op a rescue a mission. Whether that worked or not. mind the walrus posted:Someone said that the best modern arc for Batman for a shared universe is to have him start as a near-psychotic maladjusted weirdo who straight victimizes the mentally ill and criminally insane in Gotham (so you get the dark, gritty Batman neckbeards love) and then have him grow from the influence of other heroes that there's a better way and starts using his power as Bruce Wayne to both make Gotham and the wider world better. Have him actually grow up a bit. That's basically the series arc of Arrow. He starts as a serial killer and gradually as he gains allies and friends they question his motives and actions and as he inspires more heroes they inspire him to be more heroic. He stops killing, adopts a more heroic identity, struggles with having to kill if necessary, grows as a person, tries to make his city better as Oliver Queen, and ultimately sacrifices himself to save the more idealistic heroes in Flash and Supergirl because he sees them as better than himself. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 18:16
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STAC Goat posted:Well there's lots of heroes like Spider Man or Daredevil who patrol and deal with lower level crime. Batman tends to have an edge and to some degree or anything terrorizes criminal. Its why a lot of version has a "Batman doesn't kill" rule since it sets a line for him. But then a number of versions of Batman do kill when "necessary" in battle. And some just do whenever. So it varies. There is a scene in Captain Marvel where Talos basically forgives Carol for everything she's done to the Skrulls because "it's war."
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Mar 23, 2021 18:21
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live with fruit posted:There is a scene in Captain Marvel where Talos basically forgives Carol for everything she's done to the Skrulls because "it's war." Cap has a couple of scenes in the same vein. One in Winter Soldier when he's question Nick Fury and SHIELD, Fury says Cap and SHIELD did similar things in his day, and Cap says something like "we were at war and we crossed lines, and sometimes we were wrong." Then again in Age of Ultron when Maria Hill criticizes Wanda and Pietro for volunteering to be experimented on and Cap's like "yeah, what kind of monster would volunteer to be experimented on by a german scientist to protect their country?" Hill's like "that's different, you were at war" and Cap says "so are they." War's hell and comic books tend to put it in a very black and white way where its alien invaders and the heroes have no real choice but to fight. But poo poo's complicated.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:28
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STAC Goat posted:Cap has a couple of scenes in the same vein. One in Winter Soldier when he's question Nick Fury and SHIELD, Fury says Cap and SHIELD did similar things in his day, and Cap says something like "we were at war and we crossed lines, and sometimes we were wrong." Then again in Age of Ultron when Maria Hill criticizes Wanda and Pietro for volunteering to be experimented on and Cap's like "yeah, what kind of monster would volunteer to be experimented on by a german scientist to protect their country?" Hill's like "that's different, you were at war" and Cap says "so are they." And when they threw in some gray with the Skrulls in Captain Marvel, a lot of fans got mad and are still waiting for Marvel to retcon them to bad guys.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:34
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Iron Man 3 is a big budget episode of Fringe and it's why it rules.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:34
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and in a genre that's all about broad modern archetypes designed to be easily understood by children work out their differences by fighting the same way musicals work out their differences by singing and dancing, it's not a stretch to guess which side they fall into basically by default regrettable, but then again some of our earliest god-myths involve literal child sacrifice and lots of rape, so maybe on a relative curve this is in-fact a kind of progress.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:34
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Lid posted:Iron Man 3 is a big budget episode of Fringe and it's why it rules. how did i never realize this before
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Mar 23, 2021 18:36
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Lid posted:Iron Man 3 is a big budget episode of Fringe and it's why it rules.  Also, for all the ‘Batman doesn’t kill’ thing, I don’t think there’s been a film where he hasn’t killed someone (‘66 notwithstanding).
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Mar 23, 2021 18:41
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mind the walrus posted:Someone said that the best modern arc for Batman for a shared universe is to have him start as a near-psychotic maladjusted weirdo who straight victimizes the mentally ill and criminally insane in Gotham (so you get the dark, gritty Batman neckbeards love) and then have him grow from the influence of other heroes that there's a better way and starts using his power as Bruce Wayne to both make Gotham and the wider world better. Have him actually grow up a bit. This is almost his exact arc across BvS and ZSJL.
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Mar 23, 2021 18:46
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The_Doctor posted:
Doean't the no killing rule comes from a few comics and BtAS? Now that I look at it nearly all his live action versions he kills.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:04
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“I don’t kill!” <outfits car with many Gatling guns and missile launchers>
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Mar 23, 2021 19:06
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Desperado Bones posted:Doean't the no killing rule comes from a few comics and BtAS? Now that I look at it nearly all his live action versions he kills. I wanna say Bale's Batman avoids killing before "letting" Ra's Al Ghul die? But its been awhile. I can't remember if Keaton or Clooney killed freely. I think most Batmen settle on "sometimes you gotta kill in the heat of battle" but the the part people yell and scream about is whether he's killing random goons on the street. Its like the difference between Punisher and Daredevil.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:07
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Keaton literally stuck a bomb to someone and threw them in a ditch.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:09
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Keaton throws a joker goon down the middle of the stair tower at the end of 89, and it’d be a drat miracle if he survived that.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:11
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The_Doctor posted:Keaton throws a joker goon down the middle of the stair tower at the end of 89, and it’d be a drat miracle if he survived that. How much metal was in the goons blood though?
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Mar 23, 2021 19:17
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Lid posted:Iron Man 3 is a big budget episode of Fringe and it's why it rules. I tried to make the connection, but I don't remember any part of Iron Man 3 besides the very ending. It's only slightly less forgettable than Thor 2.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:20
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Mike the TV posted:I tried to make the connection, but I don't remember any part of Iron Man 3 besides the very ending. It's only slightly less forgettable than Thor 2. Extremis is some real Massive Dynamics poo poo.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:24
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Speaking of extremis, whatever happened to AIM? They were just in that Iron Man movie and there hasn't been anything about them since, was kinda hoping to see MODOK in the MCU at some point.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:32
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The_Doctor posted:“I don’t kill!” <outfits car with many Gatling guns and missile launchers> I actually really like the Affleck/Snyder Batman who is at the end of a long career and doesn't really believe they've managed to change anything and is still fighting but no longer cares at all if the bad guys get hurt or die. It feels like the natural place someone who tried to be Batman for 20 years would end up, as opposed to the happy ending that Bale gets.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:33
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Xachariah posted:Speaking of extremis, whatever happened to AIM? They were just in that Iron Man movie and there hasn't been anything about them since, was kinda hoping to see MODOK in the MCU at some point. Gonna be a Hulu show which I assume is canon? Everything is canon now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNQkdIeUbvQ
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Mar 23, 2021 19:38
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Black Widow the Movie is now relevant to this thread. https://twitter.com/ditzkoff/status/1374430317650448389 Also Disney is saying that FatWS is their most watched premiere ever. Given that it's more of a traditional Marvel movie, it doesn't surprise me that it beat WV.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:42
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Xachariah posted:Speaking of extremis, whatever happened to AIM? They were just in that Iron Man movie and there hasn't been anything about them since, was kinda hoping to see MODOK in the MCU at some point. I could see them doing an MCU MODOK as some version of Arnim Zola. The big face just being a large screen, with some small manipulator arms below it.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:43
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zoux posted:Black Widow the Movie is now relevant to this thread. Shame to hear it's been pushed back again, but I'm glad it'll actually be accessible.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:48
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zoux posted:Black Widow the Movie is now relevant to this thread. I think word of mouth on WV spurred an increase in subscribers that would result in the increased viewership.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:49
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GigaPeon posted:Gonna be a Hulu show which I assume is canon? Everything is canon now. Oh that looks fun, it would be great to see MODOK in live action MCU as well at some point, especially if he's played by Patton Oswalt.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:56
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mind the walrus posted:Someone said that the best modern arc for Batman for a shared universe is to have him start as a near-psychotic maladjusted weirdo who straight victimizes the mentally ill and criminally insane in Gotham (so you get the dark, gritty Batman neckbeards love) and then have him grow from the influence of other heroes that there's a better way and starts using his power as Bruce Wayne to both make Gotham and the wider world better. Have him actually grow up a bit. That's literally his arc in the Snyder movies
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Mar 23, 2021 20:01
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Desperado Bones posted:Doean't the no killing rule comes from a few comics and BtAS? Now that I look at it nearly all his live action versions he kills. It comes from the cartoon yeah, nobody really gave a poo poo until the cartoons effectively defined him for generations
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Mar 23, 2021 20:02
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Terror Sweat posted:It comes from the cartoon yeah, nobody really gave a poo poo until the cartoons effectively defined him for generations It comes from Batman #4. That's from 1940.
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Mar 23, 2021 20:06
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The_Doctor posted:Keaton throws a joker goon down the middle of the stair tower at the end of 89, and it’d be a drat miracle if he survived that. Not to mention driving through a chemical factory guns-a-blazin' and then blowing the whole thing up. It would be a miracle if no one was killed there.
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Mar 23, 2021 20:12
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achillesforever6 posted:Yeah one of the things you have to roll with superhero media is kind of the hosed up things that happen to henchmen getting either killed or beaten the poo poo out of when it could just be they are doing the job due to poverty (people really love to use this when it comes to Batman) The Venture Bros leaned into this trope with Brock Samson for comedic effect. He’s basically a lawnmower for inept henchmen.
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Mar 23, 2021 21:16
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Xachariah posted:Oh that looks fun, it would be great to see MODOK in live action MCU as well at some point, especially if he's played by Patton Oswalt. but as which Koenig brother?
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Mar 23, 2021 21:41
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Terror Sweat posted:That's literally his arc in the Snyder movies Actually his arc in the Synder movies is that he USED to be good, became a psycho out of despair and needs to RElearn how to be good. To bad those movies suck and tell that story so badly.
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Mar 23, 2021 21:53
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Yeah I love all the "but actually that's his arc" No, that's part of the intent of his arc. Tell a story badly and it doesn't really matter, especially when the rest of the universe remains too-serious nonsense. Try it instead with someone young like Robert Pattinson and end up in a place more like Neal Adams' version where Batman is a globetrotting adventurer with a sense of humor about himself, but still willing to have gothic and angst drama when appropriate. Nodosaur posted:It comes from Batman #4. That's from 1940. Xachariah posted:Oh that looks fun, it would be great to see MODOK in live action MCU as well at some point, especially if he's played by Patton Oswalt. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 21:57
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Also, a pretty common thing for Batman in the comics is that he uses his money as Bruce Wayne to help the city. He funds Arkham and Blackgate to be modern, comfortable, healthy places. He has an across the board policy for Wayne Industries to hire ex-convicts so they don’t have to go and work for the gangs and mobs and super-criminals after they’re out. I think at least once or twice he straight up hired Frieze to work on cryogenics (usually in stories with defined endings) and he supported Edward Nygma’s detective agency. The problem then becomes the status quo is god, where comic books cannot change because everyone wants to tell their version of the story. The idea he doesn’t use every method at his disposal to fight crime is one uniquely from the movies, or the comics where the point is that he’s a broken monster. It’s honestly kind of frustrating how often the comments are that Batman only goes out to beat up the homeless and mentally ill and all that, because the stories where he does spend time as Bruce Wayne trying to fix Gotham with money aren’t action stories, they tend to be backgrounds for whatever new villains are showing up, like the Court of Owls. The Court of Owls should absolutely be in a movie about Bruce trying to fix Gotham with his money because they’re explicitly a bunch of equally rich people who want Gotham to be a shithole. There are plenty of versions of Batman who use Bruce Wayne for good, it’s just never in the movies except I guess the Nolan ones and it’s barely in the Nolan movies. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 22:20
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Famous Marvel characters Batman and Flash e:. I kid, but reading some of the posts in the various threads discussing ZSJL and uhh I guess some people are real starved for entertainment a year in
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Mar 23, 2021 22:26
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I don't remember anything about Batman not wanting to kill people, I thought he just doesn't use a gun
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Mar 23, 2021 22:28
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Famous Marvel characters Batman and Flash To be honest I actually thought this was the general comic book movie thread when I posted that. To turn this into actual Marvel discussion. Iron Man is never really portrayed as spending his money in the way Batman does on humanitarian efforts, global sometimes but rarely local, and usually it’s more about technology advancement. I guess what I’m saying is one of the legitimate failures of the MCU in my mind is technological propagation being visible, the Arc Reactors should be in way more places than they are and that’s an actual shame.
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Mar 23, 2021 22:30
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I don’t know if Patton Oswalt could be MODOK in MCU, they had him as a sleazy bar owner in the latest season of agents of shield.
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Mar 23, 2021 22:32
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Patton Oswalt's literal first question when he got cast in Agents of Shield was "Am I Modok?"
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Mar 23, 2021 22:34
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howe_sam posted:Patton Oswalt's literal first question when he got cast in Agents of Shield was "Am I Modok?" fun fact, the AOS showrunners said in an interview around the time the finale aired that they did have plans for MODOK at one point, but Marvel Studios pulled rank and they ultimately weren't allowed to use him. not sure when/where in the show's run this would have been though
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Mar 23, 2021 22:52
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