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I was paying off very high interest debt most of last year, while contributing and rolled it into maxing my 2020 Roth for the first time when I was done with the debt. The extension is nice!
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Mar 24, 2021 17:33
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DNK posted:This is only a benefit if you manage to max both 2020 AND 2021 IRA limits AND(!) would not have been able to max 2020 without the extended timeline. That seems incredibly niche. That’s why I’m being cynical. The part that's weird is that there doesn't seem to be (to me at least, maybe I'm just ignorant of some weird tax thing that doesn't apply to me?) a downside to them extending the filing date, so you're complaining about a thing that literally the only problem which seems like it could possibly be causing you ire is that the people it helps are other people. E: Also while I always try to file my taxes in January specifically so I don't need to worry about any issues w/ deadlines, I overcontributed to a Roth IRA this last year and so had to do some juggling of contributions to last years IRAs, if I did not file my taxes in January I would probably be exceptionally happy about the extension, so I'm another person in this thread whose situation could see benefit from that niche case. E2: I'm pre-coffee and re-reading that it sounds kind of aggro? It wasn't meant to be, I do not think the tax extension is a thing to get mad about and I don't think you are seriously mad about it either, I just find it a weird direction for the convo to go in on taxes. surc fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 17:36
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I was talking to a friend of mine about student loans and retirement savings and he said the 8%+ from investment in index funds is better than using the same money to pay off the 5% student loans. I told him it would be better to pay off his loans because that's a risk-free return. Also, since he's in a high tax bracket and none of the money discussed is in a tax-advantaged account the 8% is further discounted by CG taxes. He didn't agree, and we moved on and talked about something else. But I was under the impression that in the absence of IRA/401k stuff, you should pay off debt instead of retire if the rates are close at all because the 8% or whatever that we all quote is still pretty risky, even though people my age have never felt the sting of a real bear market.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:42
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I’ve got most of my retirement savings in a post-tax, non-tax-advantaged account (i.e. a typical Vanguard account), since it wasn’t originally specifically a retirement account. I know that in this case target funds aren’t a good option due to the fees involved, and that it’s smarter to adjust via contributions. Is there anything else I need to worry about when the time comes to withdraw that money? e.g. LTCG and the like.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:44
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jokes posted:I was talking to a friend of mine about student loans and retirement savings and he said the 8%+ from investment in index funds is better than using the same money to pay off the 5% student loans. I told him it would be better to pay off his loans because that's a risk-free return. Also, since he's in a high tax bracket and none of the money discussed is in a tax-advantaged account the 8% is further discounted by CG taxes. He didn't agree, and we moved on and talked about something else. Follow the flowchart, match first, etc. 5% is on the margin, I'd personally pay it down but wouldn't fault anyone for not doing that.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:50
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Pollyanna posted:I’ve got most of my retirement savings in a post-tax, non-tax-advantaged account (i.e. a typical Vanguard account), since it wasn’t originally specifically a retirement account. I know that in this case target funds aren’t a good option due to the fees involved, and that it’s smarter to adjust via contributions. Is there anything else I need to worry about when the time comes to withdraw that money? e.g. LTCG and the like. Good target date funds in taxable aren't unreasonable at all, especially if you don't want to have to think about things ever.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:51
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jokes posted:I was talking to a friend of mine about student loans and retirement savings and he said the 8%+ from investment in index funds is better than using the same money to pay off the 5% student loans. I told him it would be better to pay off his loans because that's a risk-free return. Also, since he's in a high tax bracket and none of the money discussed is in a tax-advantaged account the 8% is further discounted by CG taxes. He didn't agree, and we moved on and talked about something else. I would probably pay the loans but for the last year and another 6 months the rate is 0% (if they are federal) so invest that money stat!
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Mar 24, 2021 17:53
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Pollyanna posted:I’ve got most of my retirement savings in a post-tax, non-tax-advantaged account (i.e. a typical Vanguard account), since it wasn’t originally specifically a retirement account. I know that in this case target funds aren’t a good option due to the fees involved, and that it’s smarter to adjust via contributions. Is there anything else I need to worry about when the time comes to withdraw that money? e.g. LTCG and the like. Target funds are still a decent option, but you can avoid some taxation on the churn of reinvestment of dividends by using funds that have no dividend distributions. You are correct that if you can adjust your asset allocation via changing where your deposits get invested, that's more tax efficient than selling some of one fund to buy another. Regardless, you will eventually have to pay at least long-term capital gains taxes on all your capital gains, unless your income is below the bottom bracket when you take your gains. You can improve the situation a little by doing tax loss harvesting with any loss-making investments you have, but if you are investing for decades, hopefully none of your major investments will have made an overall loss. Paying taxes on your capital gains isn't really a terrible thing, though. It's just a percentage of the free money that the fates gave you. You still got a bunch of free money!
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Mar 24, 2021 17:54
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jokes posted:I was talking to a friend of mine about student loans and retirement savings and he said the 8%+ from investment in index funds is better than using the same money to pay off the 5% student loans. I told him it would be better to pay off his loans because that's a risk-free return. Also, since he's in a high tax bracket and none of the money discussed is in a tax-advantaged account the 8% is further discounted by CG taxes. He didn't agree, and we moved on and talked about something else. It's an individual decision and definitely depends on the interest rate that your loans are at, but you're right, a 5% guaranteed return is nothing to scoff at, and depending on what tax bracket he's in, student loan interest may be tax deductible (or he may also be in a tax bracket that's too high to deduct student loan interest). You're also right that investment gains are subject to long term capital gains taxes at 0, 15, or 20%, cutting in to that 8% return. 5% student loans are pretty high however, and it may be worth it for him to look in to refinancing.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:55
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Nah, it's pretty straightforward. You will pay taxes on dividends and receive a 1099-DIV that you will include in your tax filing every year. you will pay taxes when you sell and receive a 1099-B that you will include in your tax filing for the relevant year. If you sell within a year, STCG = ordinary income tax rates. If you sell beyond that, LTCG tax rates apply. Taxes are generally not withheld from these sorts of transactions so you'll want to account for that in your planning.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:59
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Leperflesh posted:Target funds are still a decent option, but you can avoid some taxation on the churn of reinvestment of dividends by using funds that have no dividend distributions. You are correct that if you can adjust your asset allocation via changing where your deposits get invested, that's more tax efficient than selling some of one fund to buy another. slight disagreement on use of target date funds in a standard taxable account. if you're holding at EOY you'll quite possibly get hit with ST Cap Gains: https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-funds/profile/distributions/vfifx and in general, it's more annoying to tax loss harvest (I guess you'd swap with another, similar target date fund from another issuer?). but it's one-stop fire and forget so that's hard to beat for the effort. if you slice and dice using what's INSIDE the target date fund, it's easier to tax loss harvest and control your capital gains exposure.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:07
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Yup, as I said, you can avoid some taxation on the churn of reinvestment that takes place within target date funds, but I should have specified that target date funds, as funds-of-funds, also have to buy & sell shares of their underlying funds in order to track the asset allocation balance they're performing, and that means short term gains as well as dividend distributions. This doesn't put such a huge drag on performance that they're untenable in a taxable account; but if you're willing to construct your own allocation, it's avoidable.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:28
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I talked to him again and he brought up our discussion again— he reconsidered and is going to switch to paying off debt now that he has a sizable retirement. Once the 0% period ends, at least. Thanks for the validation goons. Debt loving sucks.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:49
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Leperflesh posted:Yup, as I said, you can avoid some taxation on the churn of reinvestment that takes place within target date funds, but I should have specified that target date funds, as funds-of-funds, also have to buy & sell shares of their underlying funds in order to track the asset allocation balance they're performing, and that means short term gains as well as dividend distributions. It's avoidable with a trivial amount of effort, so yes, the recommendation should be don't put target date funds in taxable accounts.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:39
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Residency Evil posted:This is what I do. I've set up automatic investing to alternate between VTSAX, VTIAX, and the S&P500. I haven't figured out a better what to do this. Hmm, I'd like to go with this approach, but how did you actually set it up? I'm looking at Vanguard and it doesn't seem like I can, for example, contribute to VTSAX every three months. The least frequent option I can select is every month. Separate question: All the TLH guides say to set the cost basis method to SpecID, but it seems like they were all written before HIFO became a thing. Is HIFO the recommended method now since it seems to automate what you'd be doing anyway with SpecID?
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Mar 24, 2021 21:28
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runawayturtles posted:Hmm, I'd like to go with this approach, but how did you actually set it up? I'm looking at Vanguard and it doesn't seem like I can, for example, contribute to VTSAX every three months. The least frequent option I can select is every month. I set up 3 separate monthly transactions. Once I did that, I manually set each of them to execute one month, then skip 2 months, on a rotating basis. Once a year I extend the skipped months manually. I still use SpecID for the added control that it gives you.
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Mar 24, 2021 21:48
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Residency Evil posted:I set up 3 separate monthly transactions. Once I did that, I manually set each of them to execute one month, then skip 2 months, on a rotating basis. Once a year I extend the skipped months manually. Ah okay thanks, didn't realize those extra month-specific settings became available after creating one. runawayturtles fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 00:54
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jokes posted:I was talking to a friend of mine about student loans and retirement savings and he said the 8%+ from investment in index funds is better than using the same money to pay off the 5% student loans. I told him it would be better to pay off his loans because that's a risk-free return. Also, since he's in a high tax bracket and none of the money discussed is in a tax-advantaged account the 8% is further discounted by CG taxes. He didn't agree, and we moved on and talked about something else. There's been a lot of other good posts on this, but one thing to consider that the 5% on the student loans is only 5% for the term of the loan. Once the loan is paid off you stop compounding that 5%. Investing that money will give you indefinite earnings. Using a future value calculator, for a 10 year loan with a 5% interest, every dollar you pay off now is worth $1.63 in 10 years. Meaning you've saved 63 cents in interest over 10 years. If you instead put that $1 into an index fund, 30 years from now assuming a 7% annualized return that $1 would be worth $7.61. After paying off the loan 10 years from now if you put $1 into an index fund but for only 20 years (because you're 10 years closer to retirement) that dollar is only worth $3.87. edit: to clarify $1 put into an index fund today is worth $1.97 in 10 years, so it's not exactly blowing the the loan out of the water at that point and the 7% isn't guaranteed. The difference is the index fund will continue to compound whereas the loan does not, and over 30 years a 7% return is easier to assume Baxate fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 01:07
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Residency Evil posted:This is what I do. I've set up automatic investing to alternate between VTSAX, VTIAX, and the S&P500. I haven't figured out a better what to do this.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:40
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dexter6 posted:Is there a reason you over expose yourself to S&P500 vs just buying VTSAX? I’m not sure what you mean by overexpose? Vtsax and the S&P500 have over a 99% correlation. The reason I use both is because I have vanguard set to buy automatically on the last day of the month. Theoretically, there’s a chance that for a short month I’d be within the 30 day period for TLH buying/selling and trigger a wash sale. By cycling between 3 funds, I avoid that. It’s unlikely but  .
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Mar 25, 2021 01:53
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dexter6 posted:Is there a reason you over expose yourself to S&P500 vs just buying VTSAX? I honestly think the answer is neither is necessarily wrong.
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Mar 25, 2021 02:25
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Baxate posted:There's been a lot of other good posts on this, but one thing to consider that the 5% on the student loans is only 5% for the term of the loan. Once the loan is paid off you stop compounding that 5%. Investing that money will give you indefinite earnings. I really like the line of thought in this post, but I think the real situations people are faced with are more complicated. I don't know the terms of the loan from the prior poster, but let's use this hypothetical: a typical student loan is paid off in under 20 years: https://www.cnbc.com/select/how-long-it-takes-to-pay-off-student-loans/ let's assume a 20 year term. this calculator: https://smartasset.com/student-loans/student-loan-calculator#7lzbIeZSu5 gives a $660 monthly payment for a 5%, 20 year loan of $100k. he's probably already somewhat into his loan duration if he can even conceive of paying them off and is in a "high tax bracket" as per prior poster, so I'll stick with the 10 year timeline you posted. Incidentally, that means he's halfway through his loan payments already. $62,222 would remain on the above hypothetical loan. according to this calculator, a lump sum payment of $10k would save $5840 in interest, and repayment time would shrink by 2 years: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/can-you-pay-off-student-loans-in-one-lump-sum but -- still on the hook for those $660 monthly payments. let's assume those would somehow be paid regardless. now with all that laid out, the choice to make may be reframed as this: either 1. invest $10k now, wait 30 years. at 7%, this turns into ~$76,100 and at 6% it's ~$57,500 in 30 years (dumb easy annual compounding). or 2. pay off $10k of loan early now, finish loan 2 years earlier, invest $660*12 = $7920 in the market 9 years from now, and another $7920 10 years from now, wait a total of 30 years from initial lump sum payoff. at 7%, those two investments turn into a total of ~$67,900 or ~$55,500 at 6% at the end of the 30 year period. (or 3. do something else irrelevant to this discussion with the money) so between options #1 and #2, it's a fairly small $$$ difference 30 years from now at a more conservative 6% return estimate, and you do get a margin of safety for loan repayment in case things go south, since there may be some loose correlation between his job prospects and the returns of his index fund investment (depression hellworld scenario, sequence-of-returns risk, etc.). obviously if market returns are greater than 6%, the advantage of being in the market rises. I did this all on the fly quickposting, so if anyone spots a math error, please let me know. alternative option: the guy could probably refi the student loan at a lower rate since rates have probably changed since he got the loan (?), and invest whatever money remains. edit: there's also a good point to be made for the utility of money -- if that money is in an index and the index doesn't tank, it can be used for other opportunities or unexpected needs. a paid off loan cannot. pmchem fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 02:25
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Baxate posted:There's been a lot of other good posts on this, but one thing to consider that the 5% on the student loans is only 5% for the term of the loan. Once the loan is paid off you stop compounding that 5%. Investing that money will give you indefinite earnings. This isn't correct. For a loan with fixed payments, the $1.63 from the early payoff manifests as a reduction in the amount of the final payment. That $1.63 is extra cash flow that is investible at the 10 year mark (in the same 7% vehicle), not $1. It's $1.97 vs $1.63 at 10 years, and $7.61 vs $6.31 at 30. It gets more complicated when your early payoff return exceeds one monthly payment, as you lose a little time compounding the 5%, but also get some gains out of moving money from emergency fund to investment early.
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Mar 25, 2021 02:52
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I think it's worth adding that in the US, student loan debt is undischargeable in a bankruptcy, which makes it loving awful, and also that the banks like Nelnet that commonly handle student loans are loving horrible, and so there are "soft factors" at play that favor getting out from under them sooner rather than later. The sheer psychic relief my wife felt by closing the last of her student loan accounts with Nelnet was enormous. Well worth a couple thousand dollars in lost theoretical market earnings.
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Mar 25, 2021 03:00
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Yet another variable is that if your student loans are your only non-credit card debt, paying them off will (slightly) ding your credit score. I learned that the hard way.
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Mar 25, 2021 03:16
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Leperflesh posted:The sheer psychic relief my wife felt by closing the last of her student loan accounts with Nelnet was enormous. Well worth a couple thousand dollars in lost theoretical market earnings. haha yeah that was a factor in paying off my wife’s student loan early too (not nelnet but whatever)
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Mar 25, 2021 03:22
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Leperflesh posted:The sheer psychic relief my wife felt by closing the last of her student loan accounts with Nelnet was enormous. Well worth a couple thousand dollars in lost theoretical market earnings. I'm right there with her (Fedloan Servicing and not Nelnet though) - I'll trade the losses of a few years of compounding interest for an extra 7/6/5/4 years of not having to make student loan payments. Also since I don't have to make those I've been able to put a lot more into savings in the ~9 months since then and plan to continue doing so which should help make up the difference.
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Mar 25, 2021 04:03
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Baxate posted:There's been a lot of other good posts on this, but one thing to consider that the 5% on the student loans is only 5% for the term of the loan. Once the loan is paid off you stop compounding that 5%. Investing that money will give you indefinite earnings. Wellllllllll okay, so the question is: how to increase my net worth the most in a vacuum. Let's say no matter what you put ONLY $100/monthtowards savings and loans. No windfalls, no inflation, no taxes. Just lemonade stand numbers. As a control: You start with a net worth of $0. $100 each month for 30 years, invested at 7% annualized returns, and with zero loans: $117,606.49 after 30 years. You start with a net worth of -$9428 (the loan amount for a loan paid off in 10 years with $100 payments each month at 5% interest). After you pay it off, you invest $100/month for 20 years at 7% annualized returns: you'll have $51,040.61 after 30 years. That debt costs you $60,000 after 30 years, actually. Now consider the possibility that you came into a windfall of cash: $10,000, maybe as a signing bonus or something. You now have the option of either investing that money today, or paying off your loan. If invested today and didn't touch it for 30 years at 7%, the windfall will give you $76,122.55. at retirement. Invested today: You start with a net worth of $-9428 (the loan amount of a loan paid off in 10 years with $100 payments each month at 5% interest). You invest your windfall of $10,000 today and pay off your loan in 10 years with your monthly cash flows, then when the loan is paid off you invest the $100/month for 20 years, with annualized returns of 7%: you'll have $127,163.16 after 30 years. Loan paid off: You start with a net worth of $-9428 (the loan amount of a loan paid off in 10 years with $100 payments each month at 5% interest). You pay off your loan today with the windfall, and invest the remainder and all cash flows in the future for 30 years, with annualized returns of 7%: you'll have $121,960.70 after 30 years. So there's basically no difference but one of them is significantly riskier while getting you an extra $5,000 or so, but that is the most financially prudent thing to do I guess. Also, taxes and inflation are never considered anywhere here. There's not really a difference assuming the same taxes apply on the withdrawal apply in either scenario. The psychology of it all is the major difference. Debt loving sucks jokes fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 04:27
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This is a small point, but having extra liquidity each month by having no mandatory student loan payments made it easier for me to financially plan when I was between gigs, even if paying them off wasn't the most optimal investment. Being able to budget with more wiggle room likely made me make better financial decisions overall. But, that's me and totally a head game. Also, other small point, my credit score went up significantly after paying off the last student loan, even though there weren't any bad marks, and I have had other debt in the past. I have an ancient credit card that always has a $0 balance. It's definitely a YMMV scenario. Anyway, congrats on getting the load off your back for anyone who manages to get rid of unforgivable debt in this godforsaken country.
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Mar 25, 2021 04:36
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@jokes- The typical version of this question involves marginal contributions to a 401k vs. extra principal payments on a SL. In that case, if you're otherwise not maxing tax advantaged space it is in my opinion always better to fund the 401k unless you have very low risk tolerance or awful SL rates. Even moreso if you are young and high income, you never get that tax advantaged space back. When no tax advantage available like your friend's situation, I think it's perfectly fine to weigh the emotional stuff / how much you hate having the debt more. The difference isn't huge and if you are maximg your tax advantaged space that extra return (or opportunity cost) probably isn't life changing.
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Mar 25, 2021 04:52
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Yeah, maximizing tax-advantaged savings is the biggest kicker for sure. But if you're maximizing your tax-advantaged retirement at an early age, you'll be fine lol
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Mar 25, 2021 04:56
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Thank you to thread regulars, this place has been great reading in the past few months. I have a matched 401k with Fidelity through work but I also want to start on an IRA this year to fill that tax advantaged space. My wife and I are over the income limit. I understand the process as: 1. Open traditional IRA, fund with $6k- this part I can see on the site already 2. Wait some unspecified period (Ten days? A month?) 3. Do your conversion for the year, paying tax on any gains for the period before conversion. Does Fidelity make the conversion part simple? I'm not sure when and how to open the Roth and move the money. Also, am I able to do this just once for the household (wife+me) or can each person do their own funding and conversion each year?
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Mar 25, 2021 16:16
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Throwing it out again for traction - seems like the best answer is let the change happen and maintain normal contributions/investments. MJP posted:My 401k is moving out of the funds I have in my portfolio and into their Blackrock counterparts. As of April 1st, everything will transfer over accordingly:
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Mar 25, 2021 16:22
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EBB posted:Thank you to thread regulars, this place has been great reading in the past few months. I have a matched 401k with Fidelity through work but I also want to start on an IRA this year to fill that tax advantaged space. My wife and I are over the income limit. I understand the process as: Fidelity is usually pretty easy. I always google up a step by step guide first with pictures because I forget the exact steps every time. Here's one - https://www.fatroth.com/backdoor-roth-ira-ultimate-fidelity-step-by-step-guide
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Mar 25, 2021 17:09
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MJP posted:My 401k is moving out of the funds I have in my portfolio and into their Blackrock counterparts. As of April 1st, everything will transfer over accordingly: PQDMX expense ratio: 0.30% ACWX expense ratio: 0.32% VSCPX expense ratio: 0.03% MASKX expense ratio: 0.12% VIIGX expense ratio: 0.05% PQCNX expense ratio: 0.50% PQBMX expense ratio: 0.20% BASMX expese ratio: 0.31% Doesn't look good. Did your company say anything about why they're making this change? Are any other funds being added to your available pool that have better expense ratios? Those aren't catastrophic by any means but they definitely aren't good.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:16
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CubicalSucrose posted:Fidelity is usually pretty easy. I always google up a step by step guide first with pictures because I forget the exact steps every time. Here's one - https://www.fatroth.com/backdoor-roth-ira-ultimate-fidelity-step-by-step-guide This is great, thank you!
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Mar 25, 2021 17:22
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Places like PenFed will re-fi your student loans at a very low rate and are a dream to deal with compared to the slimy services and you can just throw money at the loan weekly etc right from your PenFed checking account, etc which makes it easy to pay down quickly. https://www.penfed.org/personal/student-loan-refinance
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Mar 25, 2021 17:26
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EBB posted:Thank you to thread regulars, this place has been great reading in the past few months. I have a matched 401k with Fidelity through work but I also want to start on an IRA this year to fill that tax advantaged space. My wife and I are over the income limit. I understand the process as: Through fidelity, the 'conversion' is just transferring the money from the Traditional account to your Roth account. There should be no restriction on when you open the Roth (because in future years the account would already exist). Each person should be able to do it every year, for a total of $12k. As for the waiting period.....I did it after just a day wait, and left the money as cash so I don't worry about any gains before the conversion. If you wait longer, you may want to go ahead and invest it. That said, I'm not necessarily recommending only waiting a day, but, that's what I've done. We will see if the tax man comes after me for it, but it seems pretty low risk in my eyes. edit: the guide posted above is a little out of date with how I remember the current process with Fidelity working, but it gets the jist of it. edit2: also note, if you are funding your 2020 IRA at this point, it will be a little funky because you won't have a 1099-R, and the contribution is a 2020 event but the conversion is technically a 2021 event. If you are using turbo-tax or something similar I would look up a guide for the proper way to answer questions in that situation so that a Form 8606 is produced properly and your non-deductible basis is carried forward. If you are funding/converting in the same calendar year as your taxes, it is more straight forward. ROJO fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 17:34
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Student Loan talk: Student loan interest is above the line deductible, so the higher your tax bracket is, the more it behooves you to pay the minimum towards it, and invest the rest. Also, hey maybe the government decides to forgive some loan debt (that is of course if it was subsidized).
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Mar 25, 2021 17:43
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Keyser_Soze posted:Places like PenFed will re-fi your student loans at a very low rate and are a dream to deal with compared to the slimy services and you can just throw money at the loan weekly etc right from your PenFed checking account, etc which makes it easy to pay down quickly. Do you actually use your PenFed checking account? I like their cards so I have the minimum cash for Honors Status or whatever sitting in mine already, and am curious how they'd work as a hub. But their rough/dated online banking experience makes me wary of what the reliability and ACH transfer times would be like. 
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Mar 25, 2021 17:54
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