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Flavius Aetass posted:ngl this argument sounds very colonialist Going by your train of thought, China's war on poverty is an enormous colonial project. Come to think of it, all of china is being genocided. I wonder how Xinjiang would be able to maintain its independence if it wasn't a "colony" of China. I'm not sure this massive country bordering Russia, Pakistan, Afghanistan India, and China would enjoy its development without the forces of outside interests.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:47
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Kindest Forums User posted:Going by your train of thought, China's war on poverty is an enormous colonial project. Come to think of it, all of china is being genocided. You're not improving your case, lol.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:50
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Seriously, when a neighboring/surrounding power absorbs an ethnic group, it's not gonna be pretty no matter what and regardless of the philosophies of the absorbing power, just don't pretend that they're doing it for the benefit of the group being absorbed.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:52
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THS posted:it is kind of funny that a thread about cspam moderation has already turned into a better discussion about xinjiang than 99% of what you can find on most of SA, on reddit, or twitter - to say nothing of traditional news sources Agreed.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:53
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Kindest Forums User posted:Going by your train of thought, China's war on poverty is an enormous colonial project. Come to think of it, all of china is being genocided. "It's ok because we're lifting them out of poverty and civilizing them" .  Is the excuse America used to plow the First Nations under, famjam. Maybe take the ideological blinders off and realize you are stanning for that which you so frequently express disgust towards.This has to be satire, I refuse to accept this is a serious post.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:55
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Dustcat posted:You're not improving your case, lol. I mean, I'm just wondering what mode of development Xinjiang should take if it severs itself from China? Do you have any suggestions? Do you actually know if the Uighur population feel that their autonomy is threatened? Do you think the Xinjiang population would rather be under the sphere of influence that manages places like Kashmir, Pakistan, and Afghanistan? Or do you think Xinjiang can operate in total vacuum that is impenetrable from outside influence?
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Mar 24, 2021 22:58
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Dustcat posted:Seriously, when a neighboring/surrounding power absorbs an ethnic group, it's not gonna be pretty no matter what and regardless of the philosophies of the absorbing power, just don't pretend that they're doing it for the benefit of the group being absorbed. Yeah, I'm not saying that the China is doing this out of complete altruism (but you how do you know they are not? How do you know the they aren't a victim of a poorly thought out plan to reduce poverty and improve social cohesion) I'm just wondering what the alternatives are to urbanization into the Chinese economy. Everyone says its bad... But what are the alternatives?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:02
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Serious question: are stories about human rights abuses and encroaching totalitarianism in Hong Kong and Tibet also anti-communist propaganda?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:03
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Rime posted:"It's ok because we're lifting them out of poverty and civilizing them" . Uhhh, dude, people did not colonize America under the excuse of lifting poverty, or even civilizing (iirc the civilizing part was just a justification for the church).
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Mar 24, 2021 23:06
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Unfortunately there is no way to know what is going on in Xinjiang. The Chinese government isnt allowing independent journalism to take place and also is clearly an authoritarian government with increasing imperial ambitions. Whatever is happening is almost certainly Not Good. It is very conceivable that it is genocide under the international legal definitions of the term. The western people and organisations pushing the claims on Xinjiang do so based on ludicrously poo poo sources. They also have religious, ideological, financial and/or imperialist motives to make as many people as possible believe the Chinese government is as evil as possible. The language used is increasingly the language of war. It is very unlikely that any of their outlandish claims about death camps, organ harvesting and so on are true. If there is a genocide, it is not of this type. Western governments and media institutions have provably and transparantly lied about genocide and other claims of grotesque atrocity to drum up support for imperial aims in recent history. It is impossible to imagine that western governments and indeed most institutions genuinely care about the Uyghur people for humanitarian reasons. Indeed if they did, we should expect similar coverage, outrage and calls to action about genocides committed by these very same western governments even on this day. Rather, their concerns fit in a long history of using such feigned concerns to achieve imperial ends. Let us not forget that literally Hitler cited humanitarian reasons for the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Most posters on this forum are not Chinese, and thus have absolutely no power whatsoever to change the action of the Chinese government. Most posters are western, and in that capacity do have some minute bit of power to stand up to the false narratives being pushed, and the imperial ends these serve, by western governments and institutions. It is because of this, that it is both more useful and more moral to criticize our own governments and institutions and the narratives they push, than to criticise the Chinese government, as deserving of criticism as it might be. If there is a genocide in Xinjiang, let us demand our governments and media provide actual proof before taking us all down the path of conflict. Indeed, we should expect the international pressure to be of the type demanding access to independent journalists or UN human rights inspectors or such to get a clearer understanding of the situation. Instead we see pressure of a very different kind, of the kind of empires gearing up for conflict over power, resources and influence with one another. Let us also demand from our governments and media the simple application of the same standard applied to the Chinese government, whatever that may be, to our own governments. In conclusion, gently caress states, gently caress imperialism, gently caress the police and gently caress heavy handed moderation. Anarchism is the light. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 23:32 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 23:06
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Kindest Forums User posted:Yeah, I'm not saying that all. I 100% agree with you. It's not pretty. I'm just wondering what the alternatives are to urbanization into the Chinese economy. Everyone says its bad... But what are the alternatives? I've been following this thread from the start and begun half a dozen posts and always given up on them halfway, because I don't know enough, and this is another one of those posts, but it's never a matter of doing whatever's happening now vs. complete withdrawal. Forcing education to be in the occupying power's language rather than the native one is a pretty big cultural genocide thing.
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Mar 24, 2021 23:07
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Kindest Forums User posted:A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims..... Probably not really what you're going for, but Turkish ethno-nationalists have been expressing interest in forming a kind of bloc of Turkic peoples, which has included supporting independence for "East Turkestan" (aka Xinjiang). So they would in fact likely get a show of support from Turkey, and from NATO more generally as a potential foothold in the region. Whether they could successfully function as a country in that situation, I don't know.
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Mar 24, 2021 23:10
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from what little i do understand about economic development in Xinjiang, it's less like you'd think a communist country should be and more like gentrification
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Mar 24, 2021 23:10
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sleeptalker posted:Probably not really what you're going for, but Turkish ethno-nationalists have been expressing interest in forming a kind of bloc of Turkic peoples, which has included supporting independence for "East Turkestan" (aka Xinjiang). So they would in fact likely get a show of support from Turkey, and from NATO more generally as a potential foothold in the region. Whether they could successfully function as a country in that situation, I don't know. Mind you the Islamic guerrilla fighters linked to al-Qaeda that advocate for a east Turkestan have been deemed no longer a terrorist organization by the state department because they seemingly stopped existing even when some of them are still likely in Guantanamo for all I know. So there is some support already by us for this.
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Mar 24, 2021 23:16
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to draw a comparison to another axe i like to grind, the use of the term genocide is like the use of the term “coup” for 1/6. if one truly believes that the US was inches away from a fascist coup, then it is easier to then justify repressive measures, patriot act 2, and social media censorship in favor of democrats - which is why the coup rhetoric has been pushed so hard by democratic leadership - it helps them gain power and shores up their base. it also helps distract from their internal problems and dissatisfaction from progressive factions within their own party similarly, if xinjiang is a genocide, then what can be justified to stop it? almost anything, i would think. in the last day the US and EU have introduced sanctions over the issue. does anyone honestly believe these sanctions will cause China to back down? are these sanctions actually being put in place out of a concern for people in xinjiang? how much more likely is it that this is whipping up hysteria and inflating chinese state assimilation for very cynical foreign policy ends? if it’s genocide, then the west should probably start arming resistance groups in xinjiang to help them stop their own genocide. these sanctions won’t be enough, so we will need to increase the pressure on the fronts of taiwan and HK. for that to be taken seriously, there has to be a credible deterrence to the growing chinese military, more missiles, fighters, ships. we have to build an alliance against china to stop their horrific human rights abuses in xinjiang, tibet, HK, inner mongolia. we have to support xinjiang freedom fighters i believe the intent of the recent rapid increase in media and government focus on china is 1) to distract americans from domestic problems by focusing on an external bad guy, and even more dangerous 2) manufacture consent for escalating conflict and what could ultimately turn into a real war, either a proxy war, maybe some kind of bloody sectarian conflict within xinjiang, or if enough mistakes are made, a real all out war between the west and china
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Mar 24, 2021 23:21
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My personal position is that there's not really any reliably-sourced information about the state of things in Xinjiang, but also that I am a bit skeptical that China is the one nation in the history of the world to treat its cultural and religious minorities particularly well (and also that I am opposed to all war in general and imperialist war in particular so anyone trying to manufacture consent for war with China, however cold or hot, is not my friend). My position on moderating this particular quagmire is that, like Joementum said, there should be a wide latitude for disagreement allowed in a political discussion in a political subforum, particularly when there's, again, not much in the way of evidence that can be trusted in either direction. And (coff coff) that taking your lead from the tone of discussion in any given thread (ideally when someone hasn't been appointed the thread's Main Character) to figure out what paths lead to good talk and what paths lead to danger is probably the way to go. My position on moderating CSPAM currently is that no one trusts any of you at the moment and that's a shame and it's founded in some assumptions I don't believe to be true, but it's not exactly unfair and it's not out of nowhere.
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Mar 24, 2021 23:28
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THS posted:to draw a comparison to another axe i like to grind, the use of the term genocide is like the use of the term “coup” for 1/6. if one truly believes that the US was inches away from a fascist coup, then it is easier to then justify repressive measures, patriot act 2, and social media censorship in favor of democrats - which is why the coup rhetoric has been pushed so hard by democratic leadership - it helps them gain power and shores up their base. it also helps distract from their internal problems and dissatisfaction from progressive factions within their own party the 1/6 assault absolutely was a coup attempt, just a very poorly organized one, but the odds of it succeeding weren't zero and social media censorship "in favor of the democrats" is never going to happen and is a weird thing to even think about, but if it did happen, it would involve slapping twitter disclaimers on fake news and deleting fake accounts, the way twitter finally dealt with trump when @jack was done with him similarly, the xinjiang genocide is of the sort that's easily tolerated and practiced by western countries too, including of course the US, and the US isn't going to arm dissidents in the country that manufactures all of its consumer goods the anti-china propaganda from the west is just the usual dominionist and other conservative idiots, and the MIC looking for more funding, and of course as you say the need to deflect from the US's internal problems, which are its only real problems right now, other than global climate change. i really don't think it'll turn into a shooting war because even the propagandists understand that's not the aim, unless it goes on for 20 years in which case of course we've got a case of the koolaid drinkers mixing the koolaid again
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Mar 24, 2021 23:33
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Dustcat posted:the 1/6 assault absolutely was a coup attempt, just a very poorly organized one, but the odds of it succeeding weren't zero lol
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Mar 24, 2021 23:34
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I can't believe I allowed the Xinjiang and ALD controversies to distract me from the true outrage in C-SPAM moderation: Dustcat thinks a bunch of used car dealers and realtors nearly magically became our coup government by stepping foot on the floors of the capitol
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Mar 24, 2021 23:39
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it’s amazing to look at the extreme increase in focus on china in the last few years, the last year, hell the last month, and say something like it’s the “usual dominionist and other conservative idiots, and the MIC looking for more funding” - it’s funny as hell to completely overstate a fake thing: the chance of a successful coup on 1/6, while ignoring a very observable real thing: a massive rise in media stories and western anti-china rhetoric to manufacture a new cold war with china dustcat your brain is very murky and it rules
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Mar 24, 2021 23:39
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Serious question: are stories about human rights abuses and encroaching totalitarianism in Hong Kong and Tibet also anti-communist propaganda? It kind of is when you consider the history of Hong Kong and how the british forced a parliamentary system onto hong kong which they knew would clash with mainland china as they were leaving, as a final "gently caress you" to China, and the fact that their economic decline is directly linked to western capital moving on from hong kong into Singapore as an asian capital holding place. Not sure of Tibet though. edit; i mean, leaving out the history of why there is trouble brewing and only highlighting the trouble itself in order to enhance the image of China as a tyrannical state is pretty much the textbook definition of propaganda. quote:2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person Propaganda doesn't have to be false, it's just has to be spread with a purpose, whether its to harm or support, truth or lie, doesn't matter. They're giving you a small slice of the story because that small slice puts china in a bad light, while if you shared the full story you'd see that everyone involved is an equal rear end, in different manners. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 23:45 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 23:41
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im glad we can all agree that right wing reactionaries pose zero threat 
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Mar 24, 2021 23:42
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The attempted murder of the Vice President and the large majority of Congress is, in fact, an attempted coup.
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Mar 24, 2021 23:43
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normal poo poo: 
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Mar 24, 2021 23:44
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im permabanned poster uighurstomper58. i first started reading cspam when i was about 12. by 14 i got really obsessed with the concept of “maoism” and tried to channel it constantly, until my thought process got really bizarre and i would repeat things like “Daddy Xi” and “reports of genocide in Xinjiang are anti-communist propaganda” in my head for hours, and i would get really paranoid, start seeing things in the corners of my eyes etc, basically prodromal schizophrenia. im now on antipsychotics. i always wondered what the kind of “ironic” style of cspam humor was all about; i think it’s the unconscious leaking in to the conscious, what jungian theory considered to be the cause of schizophrenic and schizotypal syptoms. i would advise all people who “get” cspam to be careful because that likely means you have a predisposition to a mental illness. peace.
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Mar 24, 2021 23:45
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Lmao hell yeah, back to "if you don't agree that the qanan shaman was seconds away from declaring himself prime Minister then you're a chud" love this leftist forum
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Mar 24, 2021 23:45
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THS posted:it’s amazing to look at the extreme increase in focus on china in the last few years, the last year, hell the last month, and say something like it’s the “usual dominionist and other conservative idiots, and the MIC looking for more funding” - it’s funny as hell to completely overstate a fake thing: the chance of a successful coup on 1/6, while ignoring a very observable real thing: a massive rise in media stories and western anti-china rhetoric to manufacture a new cold war with china I don't know what media you read, but here in America, this is exactly what it reads like. And how the hell do you have a cold war with a country that manufactures all of your consumer goods?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:47
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Gringostar posted:im glad we can all agree that right wing reactionaries pose zero threat see and this is why it’s a good analogy - because no one would say that 1/6 was “good” or that reactionaries pose zero threat, just like no one thinks what is happening in xinjiang is a Good. but it is the degree to which you think there is a threat or how close we were from Dictator For Life Trump or the relative scale of state repression on the level of assimilation vs. cultural genocide vs. death camps which determines how accurate a view you probably have of the world, what a reasonable response to the situation in question is, etc. shouldnt we be rooting for federal cops clamping down on domestic terror if reactionary forces are about to impose the American Reich? as well, shouldnt we be looking to the lesser evil of the west to stop a genocide in progress?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:49
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THS posted:normal poo poo: im sure a global pandemic that originated in china has literally no bearing on these numbers at all
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Mar 24, 2021 23:49
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Dustcat posted:I don't know what media you read, but here in America, this is exactly what it reads like. And how the hell do you have a cold war with a country that manufactures all of your consumer goods? you start by having one idiot sex pest elected that does a trade war and then have another idiot sex pest continue it
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Mar 24, 2021 23:50
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Gringostar posted:im sure a global pandemic that originated in china has literally no bearing on these numbers at all you really don’t think there is increasing media coverage over xinjiang and a certain narrative gaining steam over the past months?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:50
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Dustcat posted:the 1/6 assault absolutely was a coup attempt, just a very poorly organized one, but the odds of it succeeding weren't zero lmfao
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Mar 24, 2021 23:51
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fanfic insert posted:you start by having one idiot sex pest elected that does a trade war and then have another idiot sex pest continue it only trump could start a trade war with china biden's a senile rubber stamp for wall street
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Mar 24, 2021 23:51
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The China rhetoric is not a conservative only thing. It is the entire US political zeitgeist coming to the rightful conclusion that if they don’t do SOMETHING in the near future we will be the new UK, a has been super power rapidly losing geopolitical power as our electorate becomes increasingly idiotic causing ourselves to Balkanize
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Mar 24, 2021 23:51
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:The attempted murder of the Vice President and the large majority of Congress is, in fact, an attempted coup. nope lol
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Mar 24, 2021 23:53
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Is anti-China rhetoric really any worse than it was in 2008, outside of covid-related racism?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:54
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liberals, in MY FORUM? its more likely than you think
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Mar 24, 2021 23:54
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Dustcat posted:only trump could start a trade war with china ah yes, wall street, famous for not disliking communist states. if u think they dont like the trade war you havnt been watching cnbc and im pretty sure they'd very much like for the chinese state to be completely subservient to them so the goods can be even cheaper
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Mar 24, 2021 23:55
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:nope lol Is Kim Jong Un also the victim of anti-communist lies?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:55
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Is anti-China rhetoric really any worse than it was in 2008, Is this a serious question
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Mar 24, 2021 23:55
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