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https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/08/08/national/social-issues/uighurs-japan-speak-plight-kin-back-china/ I'm sure these Uighurs in Japan with similar allegations of disappearances to the account posted earlier in the thread also work for the US state department
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Mar 25, 2021 17:09
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ram dass in hell posted:almost certainly huh, well then I'm sure you can demonstrate that with evidence
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Mar 25, 2021 17:09
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:loving look at the definitions of genocide used to establish consensus on the United States committing genocide at the southern border and tell me that rounding up entire ethnic groups and putting them in an internment camp doesn't meet it. the united states is not committing genocide on the southern border. give it a couple of years for the climate refugee waves to start hitting, then we'll most certainly be gunning people down in the open
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Mar 25, 2021 17:11
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Dolphin posted:Why bother? this might be good proof of ongoing state oppression against a state minority, which is not being denied. it is not evidence of genocide or death camps
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Mar 25, 2021 17:11
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https://bitterwinter.org/in-xinjiang-its-the-cultural-revolution/
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Mar 25, 2021 17:11
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Quit beating around the bush and just loving say you believe that actually, re-education camps are good when communist countries do them.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:11
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Quit beating around the bush and just loving say you believe that actually, re-education camps are good when communist countries do them. There are no existing communist countries. If a communist country did a reeducation camp it would be good by definition.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:13
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don’t shift the discussion now to try and assert people are claiming there is no state repression in china
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Mar 25, 2021 17:14
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Serf posted:the united states is not committing genocide on the southern border.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:14
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 well their sources certainly seem to be beyond reproach
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Mar 25, 2021 17:14
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a few DRUNK BONERS posted:There are no existing communist countries.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:15
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this book seems to be about the cultural revolution, with a surrounding push to say that what is happening in xinjiang today is the same thing. not sure this one holds up SpiderHyphenMan posted:Okay time out I thought c-spam consensus was pretty clear on this one. i mean i could be the odd man out here but i've only seen concentration camp rhetoric, not death camp.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:15
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Comrade Koba posted:
drat how does that name show up everywhere lol
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Mar 25, 2021 17:16
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Dolphin posted:Why bother? https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1289523972862668801 https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1316777350789500928 https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1287426960965197825   love too be a China watcher
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Mar 25, 2021 17:16
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actually re-education camps are good
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Mar 25, 2021 17:16
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wait is there evidence that biden is systemically exterminating refugees on the border? that is hosed up, and i’m against it
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Mar 25, 2021 17:17
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Okay time out I thought c-spam consensus was pretty clear on this one. The consensus is that the US has concentration camps. These have a long and horrible history in the united states and elsewhere, as most innovations of the British empire do. These are not extermination camps.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:17
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gradenko_2000 posted:love too be a China watcher lmao every loving time
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Mar 25, 2021 17:17
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Again, there are multiple overlapping definitions of genocide, so it can be reasonable to say the US is committing genocide at the border and also reasonable to say that the US isn’t committing genocide at the border. That’s why arguing over the word without discussing which definition you are using is a distraction, almost like it is intentionally used to shift the conversation away from reality and towards labeling individuals as deniers to try and hurt their credibility.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:17
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THS posted:wait is there evidence that biden is systemically exterminating refugees on the border? that is hosed up, and i’m against it not so much "systematically exterminating" as "detaining in horrific conditions and then chaotically exiling back to an uncertain fate in places turned to poo poo by american intervention" its all very neoliberal, very hands-off. the most enterprising refugees will make it back, the others will not. the free market at work
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Mar 25, 2021 17:19
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Brain Candy posted:The consensus is that the US has concentration camps. These have a long and horrible history in the united states and elsewhere, as most innovations of the British empire do. These are not extermination camps. lmao i got called a genocide denier when i expressed skepticism that there were mass graves just outside of ICE facilities
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Mar 25, 2021 17:19
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1289523972862668801
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Mar 25, 2021 17:20
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Serf posted:not so much "systematically exterminating" as "detaining in horrific conditions and then chaotically exiling back to an uncertain fate in places turned to poo poo by american intervention" yeah sorry i was flippant, i just want to be careful on terms - if only because this entire thread is essentially about what terms should be used to describe what and if people should be banned for using the wrong terms
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Mar 25, 2021 17:22
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Dolphin posted:This is pathetic dude were you expecting that you would drop a web URL and all your opponents would be defeated by the incontrovertible evidence? that no one would look into the source
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Mar 25, 2021 17:23
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Serf posted:the united states is not committing genocide on the southern border. give it a couple of years for the climate refugee waves to start hitting, then we'll most certainly be gunning people down in the open forcibly removing children from their parents and putting them into homes from someone of a different culture is 100% a genocide and it 100% happened along the southern boarder i think a lot of the confusion coming from people here is that genocide doesn't just mean death camps
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Mar 25, 2021 17:25
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Dolphin posted:This is pathetic dude refute it THS posted:yeah sorry i was flippant, i just want to be careful on terms - if only because this entire thread is essentially about what terms should be used to describe what and if people should be banned for using the wrong terms not that our opinions matter, but people should not be probed or banned for using the wrong terms or expressing skepticism, and terms should not themselves be banned (lol d&d). probes and bans should be reserved for active cheerleading of these efforts imo
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Mar 25, 2021 17:25
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THS posted:were you expecting that you would drop a web URL and all your opponents would be defeated by the incontrovertible evidence? that no one would look into the source No I was expecting exactly what I said would happen where I can drop literally 1000 pages of documents in this thread and you idiots will search tweets about the author and post them like you've made another slam dunk
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Mar 25, 2021 17:26
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also to take a step back and reiterate on the point of this thread, i dont think any of the discussion so far constitutes thoughtcrimes so bad that it has to be purged from cspam, regardless of what point of view they have been arguing
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Mar 25, 2021 17:26
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Dolphin posted:https://www.utjd.org/ what makes it not a slam dunk to point out that his methodology is bad and his motivations aren't what he claims? also his ties to adrian zenz are pretty lolworthy
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Mar 25, 2021 17:27
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Dolphin posted:https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/08/08/national/social-issues/uighurs-japan-speak-plight-kin-back-china/    https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/1373786051513303047
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Mar 25, 2021 17:27
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Dolphin posted:Why bother? Literally no way of knowing from looking at that site. They've got information about looking for both paid and unpaid volunteers but im finding no information about their funding. Tried to download a couple of their lists but got File Missing errors so really I can't tell if maybe this is one of those thing that someone wants someone to look at the surface and go "oh this is terrible" when its in fact all just made up, like the NYT linking to chinese articles which are about something completely different from what they're claiming they are. What i've always been taught about evaluating sources is to first find out who is paying for it, so uh, who's paying for these paid volunteers? And im not finding anything proving a genocide, only state oppression, which is not the same thing.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:27
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Dolphin posted:https://www.utjd.org/ hate to tell you this but the author stating that their content cannot be considered factual does, indeed, debunk the idea of using their content as a factual source
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Mar 25, 2021 17:28
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Gringostar posted:forcibly removing children from their parents and putting them into homes from someone of a different culture is 100% a genocide and it 100% happened along the southern boarder At times it feels less like confusion and more like an intentional rhetorical choice, along the same lines as "actually the United States is responsible for the Holocaust because Hitler got all his ideas from Jim Crow."
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Mar 25, 2021 17:29
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Serf posted:refute it Agreed 100%
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Mar 25, 2021 17:30
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Usually considering the background, funding, and reputation of an author is an absolutely normal activity when researching complex and controversial issues. Like, it does actually matter if the “scientist” claiming global warming is fake also gets paid by the American Petroleum Institute.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:31
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lol i saw someone posting refutations by grayzone, a site that shamelessly posts russian propaganda. look, adrian zenz is bad and a cia plant, but this platform started a month after blumenthal visited moscow and suddenly changed his views 180 degrees... are very good
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Mar 25, 2021 17:31
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Dolphin posted:This is pathetic dude The Xinjiang victims database openly admits that their data is not reliable so I don't see how that counts as evidence https://shahit.biz/eng/#faq quote:Do you fact check all submissions? No, as this is too cost-prohibitive (given our resources) and often impossible (given the information vacuum in Xinjiang). For the most part, shahit.biz operates passively and imports data from a mix of public sources – such as video testimonies and media reports – and official documents, reporting as accurately as possible the information conveyed in the original source. It is outside our scope and ability to go out and corroborate each and every testimony. However, it is not rare for specific cases to become corroborated naturally over time, as new information comes in and we add it to the existing victim entries. Additionally, we do have staff dedicated to searching the Chinese internet for information about the documented victims, which sometimes yields corroborative information about their identities or, less frequently, about their detentions. Occasionally, though not very often, victims reported by people outside of China will also show up in the official government documents that we have limited access to. In the case that we receive an unsolicited submission from someone we do not know and whose identity we cannot immediately verify, we typically reach out to that person via e-mail so as to get additional details and to confirm their identity. Unsolicited submissions for which we cannot verify the submitting party nor corroborate the content are usually not accepted
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Mar 25, 2021 17:32
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Somaen posted:lol i saw someone posting refutations by grayzone, a site that shamelessly posts russian propaganda. look, adrian zenz is bad and a cia plant, but this platform started a month after blumenthal visited moscow and suddenly changed his views 180 degrees... are very good lol
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Mar 25, 2021 17:32
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:At times it feels less like confusion and more like an intentional rhetorical choice, along the same lines as "actually the United States is responsible for the Holocaust because Hitler got all his ideas from Jim Crow." where's the lie?
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Mar 25, 2021 17:32
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Gringostar posted:forcibly removing children from their parents and putting them into homes from someone of a different culture is 100% a genocide and it 100% happened along the southern boarder It's like Trabisnikof said, theres multiple definitions so it depends on how technically correct you want to be. Are the camps designed to kill them? No, they're designed to make more money for private contractors and deter more refugees and immigrants. They aren't designed to kill, so in that way they aren't a genocide... but people do die there due to the horrific conditions which the US is engaging in due to lack of care, humanity and because it makes more money. In that way, it is a genocide. THS posted:also to take a step back and reiterate on the point of this thread, i dont think any of the discussion so far constitutes thoughtcrimes so bad that it has to be purged from cspam, regardless of what point of view they have been arguing Agreed 100%. This has been interesting to read, as someone with little knowledge of the situation outside of cultural osmosis. I do want dolphin to keep posting though, because the combination of cspam style "scream at your opponent" and dnd style "post a source you found on Google you haven't read and assume its a slam dunk" has been entertaining.
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