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A thing that I'm interested in is using this entire conversation as a data point in the consideration of things like propaganda, overton windows, the scope of allowable possibilities, the default conceptual framework of ideology that biases us all to be receptive to certain ideas and dismissive of others. I think many of us if not most of us itt have had our beliefs on this issue changed at least a tiny bit. It's interesting to think about why we started where we started and what the process of change of belief entailed.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:35
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CYBEReris posted:hate to tell you this but the author stating that their content cannot be considered factual does, indeed, debunk the idea of using their content as a factual source  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5zZxlTN2rE Trabisnikof posted:Usually considering the background, funding, and reputation of an author is an absolutely normal activity when researching complex and controversial issues. Dolphin has issued a correction as of 17:39 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 17:35
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Gringostar posted:where's the lie?
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Mar 25, 2021 17:36
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ram dass in hell posted:A thing that I'm interested in is using this entire conversation as a data point in the consideration of things like propaganda, overton windows, the scope of allowable possibilities, the default conceptual framework of ideology that biases us all to be receptive to certain ideas and dismissive of others. I think many of us if not most of us itt have had our beliefs on this issue changed at least a tiny bit. It's interesting to think about why we started where we started and what the process of change of belief entailed. 
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Mar 25, 2021 17:36
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ram dass in hell posted:A thing that I'm interested in is using this entire conversation as a data point in the consideration of things like propaganda, overton windows, the scope of allowable possibilities, the default conceptual framework of ideology that biases us all to be receptive to certain ideas and dismissive of others. I think many of us if not most of us itt have had our beliefs on this issue changed at least a tiny bit. It's interesting to think about why we started where we started. it hasn't changed my opinion on china at all (don't care for 'em) but looking into xinjiang has really broadened my horizons on actual genocides in the past and present
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Mar 25, 2021 17:37
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Somaen posted:lol i saw someone posting refutations by grayzone, a site that shamelessly posts russian propaganda. look, adrian zenz is bad and a cia plant, but this platform started a month after blumenthal visited moscow and suddenly changed his views 180 degrees... are very good the Grayzone guys are fueled by their hatred of Trotskyism, if they managed to get paid by Russia while carrying out their posting feuds good for them.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:37
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Dolphin posted:no, that's also not how burden of proof works. there appears to be widespread consensus that this is a thing that is occurring so it's incumbent on you to prove that it isn't. kinda like how everyone says gravity is a thing and if i say it's been wrong all along i have to provide the evidence. There is not a widespread consensus. It only seems to you that there is because of your immersion into a particular slice of the western media sphere. The appearance of consensus is manufactured in part by taking a few extremely specious sources and having a multiplicity of publications, front groups, etc all cite those few sources in slightly different ways. That's why all the stuff you're posting - which, doubtless, seems to you to be a galaxy of evidence - keeps turning out to stem from the same two or three guys.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:38
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Ferrinus posted:There is not a widespread consensus. It only seems to you that there is because of your immersion into a particular slice of the western media sphere.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:40
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Atrocious Joe posted:the Grayzone guys are fueled by their hatred of Trotskyism, if they managed to get paid by Russia while carrying out their posting feuds good for them. Owning the communists by supporting and being funded by an extremely corrupt oligarchal government This is why you can't trust stalinists folks.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:44
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Atrocious Joe posted:the Grayzone guys are fueled by their hatred of Trotskyism, if they managed to get paid by Russia while carrying out their posting feuds good for them. i wish there was some ideology behind it, but several propagandists from russian state tv have emigrated to the US and after which quickly denounced what they were doing and turned into pro-western liberals or came out as LGBT lol it's always about money (and in case for those that actually live in russia, to earn enough money to leave russia)
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Mar 25, 2021 17:45
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Dolphin posted:
No, often a bias is sufficient to disregard the work someone did. And you’re mistaking my API example, where they directly pay scientists to come up with bullshit denialist papers. It is absolutely absurd to pretend one must consider the work of API or the Heartland Institute when discussing climate change. But I’m curious, if you think sources of bias don’t conclusively discredit an author, then presumably that also applies to Chinese state supported media? Or is that somehow a different kind of bias that totally discredits them, but if it is State Department supported media they aren’t discredited?
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Mar 25, 2021 17:46
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What would Max Blumenthal need money for
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Mar 25, 2021 17:46
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Abby Martin quit RT for their editorial policies and still makes anti-Western imperialism pieces. Is Chris Hedges a Russian stooge?
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Mar 25, 2021 17:48
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Max Blumenthal buying Petros with this Russian oil money
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Mar 25, 2021 17:48
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really queer Christmas posted:It's like Trabisnikof said, theres multiple definitions so it depends on how technically correct you want to be. Are the camps designed to kill them? No, they're designed to make more money for private contractors and deter more refugees and immigrants. They aren't designed to kill, so in that way they aren't a genocide... but people do die there due to the horrific conditions which the US is engaging in due to lack of care, humanity and because it makes more money. In that way, it is a genocide. only there are pretty well defined definitions of genocide while they do include death camps are absolutely not limited to them
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Mar 25, 2021 17:49
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Junkozeyne posted:The Xinjiang victims database openly admits that their data is not reliable so I don't see how that counts as evidence lol the faq was the ? next to the Donate button lol. https://shahit.biz/funds.php thats the funding page, yeah that totally transparent. why even have a funding page if thats all youre gonna show?
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Mar 25, 2021 17:51
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1186251337882685442 And yes, he works for the Australian government. Dolphin has issued a correction as of 17:56 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 17:51
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Trabisnikof posted:But I’m curious, if you think sources of bias don’t conclusively discredit an author, then presumably that also applies to Chinese state supported media? Or is that somehow a different kind of bias that totally discredits them, but if it is State Department supported media they aren’t discredited?
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Mar 25, 2021 17:53
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works for the australian strategic policy institute, lol. funded by the department of defence
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Mar 25, 2021 17:55
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Gringostar posted:only there are pretty well defined definitions of genocide while they do include death camps are absolutely not limited to them sure, but also people are also routinely using less expansive terms. Like under treaty, one could make a strong argument that the US is genociding African Americans, but when most people think of genocide, they think of a more acute form of ethnic repression. Or how many genocides are contained within our climate policy? None? Because no group is specifically targeted? Or many? Because we are knowingly enacting policy that will directly cause things that are considered genocide by the treaty we signed.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:55
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Serf posted:works for the australian strategic policy institute, lol. funded by the department of defence
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Mar 25, 2021 17:56
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Nathan Ruser works for the ASPI, a think tank funded by the Australian MOD and American weapons manufacturers
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Mar 25, 2021 17:56
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Dolphin posted:Cool. Wanna debunk it rather than do the ad hominem thing again? how is it an ad hominem to point out where someone works and who they get their funding from? one can easily derive all sorts of motives from this information that discredits their work
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Mar 25, 2021 17:57
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Dolphin posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1186251337882685442 https://mobile.twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1186252896649666561 His own source contradicts him lol quote:CORRECTION
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Mar 25, 2021 17:59
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i have never seen anyone even attempt to provide evidence for the Grayzone being funded by Russia. i know where at least part of their funding comes from, me, because i donate to their patreon. they are one of a very few media organizations that are fighting against US state dept narratives
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Mar 25, 2021 17:59
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Serf posted:not that our opinions matter, but people should not be probed or banned for using the wrong terms or expressing skepticism, and terms should not themselves be banned (lol d&d). probes and bans should be reserved for active cheerleading of these efforts imo correct imo Gringostar posted:only there are pretty well defined definitions of genocide while they do include death camps are absolutely not limited to them i think this is where we get caught. i'd be cool with using the UN definition but you have to nail it down for everywhere, because when see people say 'denying genocide' you don't think that people mean 'denying the destruction of a culture', you think 'denying the systematic murder of a group of people' basically the Holocaust was so monstrous it destroyed people's ability to speak eight decades later
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Mar 25, 2021 18:00
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If those internment camps were death camps, who exactly would be in a position to verify that first-hand and post about it on Twitter?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:01
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It's the same poo poo you see with Tara Reade: no network is going to air your story about how the US government totally sucks, so you're forced to go to the only one that'll give you a platform, and then oops turns out going on RT means you're a Putin puppet now Wonder why you had to go on RT in the first place, surely MSNBC would have let you oppose the State Department narrative right?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:01
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Serf posted:how is it an ad hominem to point out where someone works and who they get their funding from? one can easily derive all sorts of motives from this information that discredits their work
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Mar 25, 2021 18:01
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Junkozeyne posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1186252896649666561
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Mar 25, 2021 18:02
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Dolphin posted:It's an ad hominem because you're attacking the source of the information rather than addressing the argument itself. The points in his argument do not specifically rely on his credentials as an authority, if he said "I work for the Australian such and such and therefore I can say that yes it's a genocide" then you could call it a conflict of interest. the fact that he doesn't straight up identify himself as an agent of a think tank funded by the austrailian government is even more sus imo. of course none of these ghoulish motherfuckers do that, which is why it took me a minute of following links to find out how full of poo poo he is
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Mar 25, 2021 18:03
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Dolphin posted:It's an ad hominem because you're attacking the source of the information rather than addressing the argument itself. The points in his argument do not specifically rely on his credentials as an authority, if he said "I work for the Australian such and such and therefore I can say that yes it's a genocide" then you could call it a conflict of interest. My dude you need to destroy the part of your thinking that has completely internalized the framing used by the CIA, you are doing pro bono propaganda work for the united states government because you refuse to consider that there are bad actors involved in the manufacture of narrative
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Mar 25, 2021 18:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's the same poo poo you see with Tara Reade: no network is going to air your story about how the US government totally sucks, so you're forced to go to the only one that'll give you a platform, and then oops turns out going on RT means you're a Putin puppet now
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Mar 25, 2021 18:05
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://about.skechers.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/SKECHERS-USA-STATEMENT-UYGHURS-March-2021.pdf It would be interesting to see how this plays out with any potential sanctions. If American capital is willing to counter the State Department narrative, either forced labor isn't actually happening. Or American Capital is willing to lie for the sake of their established factories and to support the Chinese narrative. If these factories were actually genocidal forced labour factories, and the state department was foaming through their mouths to take down China, it would seem strange that companies would be resistant to pulling out. It would be like Exxon publicly stating that the Baath party are actually super chill and we shouldn't sanction & destroy Iraq. Anyways, if American companies are unwilling to toe the state department line, then there is a divergence between american capital and the state. No matter what is happening in Xinjiang, this would be unprecedented I think. Or Sketchers might just be an isolated incident and we could see other western companies going the opposite direction soon enough.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:05
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ram dass in hell posted:My dude you need to destroy the part of your thinking that has completely internalized the framing used by the CIA, you are doing pro bono propaganda work for the united states government because you refuse to consider that there are bad actors involved in the manufacture of narrative its incredible that people who supposedly lived through 9/11 and the manufacturing of consent for war with afghanistan and iraq are so trusting of the government and people funded by it
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Mar 25, 2021 18:06
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ram dass in hell posted:My dude you need to destroy the part of your thinking that has completely internalized the framing used by the CIA, you are doing pro bono propaganda work for the united states government because you refuse to consider that there are bad actors involved in the manufacture of narrative
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Mar 25, 2021 18:07
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Trabisnikof posted:sure, but also people are also routinely using less expansive terms. to expand what you said, it's pretty much universally accepted that genocide is a targeted policy of ethic repression and/or extermination, it's just that that repression and extermination can take many different forms hell, just the extermination portion isn't limited to things like death camps since it can also be wiping out the ethnic culture of a group without killing anyone in that group i think the two important things to consider when labeling something as a genocide is if it's targeted to a culture/ethnicity and is that thing designed to repress or exterminate that culture/ethnicity an interesting thing to consider when discussing the Japanese internment is if it it actually meets that criteria since while it absolutely targeted an ethnicity was that policy also designed to repress or exterminate it?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:08
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Serf posted:its incredible that people who supposedly lived through 9/11 and the manufacturing of consent for war with afghanistan and iraq are so trusting of the government and people funded by it Unlike the CCP, who has never lied to their own people or to the world about anything.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:09
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Dolphin posted:With the corrected info what would the number be? The point is that he used a completely wrong statistic to arrive at his conclusion without bothering to do his own research. By that methodology why not claim ~25million Uighurs are in camps since as everyone knows China puts Uighurs in camps and there are that many Uighurs in Xinjiang.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:09
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Unlike the CCP, who has never lied to their own people or to the world about anything. its amazing that you still reflexively see that post as a defense of the ccp (who i emphatically do not like or agree with)
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Mar 25, 2021 18:10
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