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Raskolnikov38 posted:oh gently caress off and go write in kamala again. no one disagrees that human right abuses are occurring in xinjiang or that cultural genocide is occurring on some scale. what people are pushing back against are the bullshit claims that china's opened death camps I am actually saying that there is no genocide, cultural or otherwise in Xinjiang. I firmly believe that China is doing counter-terrorism stuff and are going way to heavy handed crossing the line(by a fair bit) into human rights abuses but that is not the same as genocide.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:40
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fanfic insert posted:I am actually saying that there is no genocide, cultural or otherwise in Xinjiang. I firmly believe that China is doing counter-terrorism stuff and are going way to heavy handed crossing the line(by a fair bit) into human rights abuses but that is not the same as genocide.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:40
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Dolphin posted:no clue. it's ethnic cleansing regardless if their cultural identity wasn't repressed or exterminated then no I'm afraid it's not this isnt to say Japanese internment wasn't morally repugnant and even at the time the camps were labeled as concentration camps but the question is if the camps rose to the definition of genocide which is a targeted ethnic repression/extermination policy
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Mar 25, 2021 18:41
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Grapplejack posted:We know that the camps exist, and we know that they're "re-education camps" designed to "prevent terrorism" by "eradicating dangerous beliefs". That's straight from the chinese government. and the US government wants you to believe there are millions of people in them, being forcibly sterilized, as do separatist groups based out of DC, all with the goal of manufacturing consent for the new cold war, and to juice the military industrial complex so we can confront china. the sanctions have already begun. sanctions tend not to escalate, though, im sure
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Mar 25, 2021 18:41
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Gringostar posted:if their cultural identity wasn't repressed or exterminated then no I'm afraid it's not they gunned down anyone that got too close to a fence line and all their land and property was stolen from them
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Mar 25, 2021 18:42
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fanfic insert posted:I am actually saying that there is no genocide, cultural or otherwise in Xinjiang. I firmly believe that China is doing counter-terrorism stuff and are going way to heavy handed crossing the line(by a fair bit) into human rights abuses but that is not the same as genocide. A lot of people agree with you that it isn't a 'genocide' but it's designed to homogenize and culturally assimilate a smaller minority, similarly to the reservation school poo poo the US did
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Mar 25, 2021 18:43
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Dolphin posted:if jimmy says the grain elevators are on fire and he's lying, you hit him with the beating stick and hope that he doesn't do it again. if he does it again you say "maybe this time it's true" because it would be really bad if the grain all burnt up. okay this is a different argument right? you're saying here 'why not check even if the source isn't trust worthy? the consequences are vast'
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Mar 25, 2021 18:43
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Grapplejack posted:We know that the camps exist, and we know that they're "re-education camps" designed to "prevent terrorism" by "eradicating dangerous beliefs". That's straight from the chinese government. They call it vocational training and education but here is what the Chinese government has to say about it: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201908/17/WS5d574e53a310cf3e355664b1.html
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Mar 25, 2021 18:45
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Dolphin posted:"including" doing a lot of heavy lifting here
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Mar 25, 2021 18:45
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Dolphin posted:the us is also doing counter-terrorism stuff Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France etc etc etc are also doing counter-terrorism stuff? whats your point? some do it more heavy handed than others and some stray into human rights abuses and others stray into genocide, like saudi arabia and the us are doing in Yemen.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:45
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Grapplejack posted:We know that the camps exist, and we know that they're "re-education camps" designed to "prevent terrorism" by "eradicating dangerous beliefs". That's straight from the chinese government. Yes, absolutely, and I've seen some scathing criticisms of them by, for instance, Indian Maoists who work purely off China's own words and (some leaked) internal documents: https://www.cpiml.net/liberation/2020/08/chinas-concentration-camps-for-uyghurs-in-chinas-own-words There's no question that, using the threat of terrorism as a pretext, the Chinese government is taking coercive measures to shape the religious practice and general training and education of some slice of Xinjiang's Uyghur population. The Uyghurs aren't the only ethnic group which is facing pressures to assimilate (I referenced earlier the way that Mongolian-primary schools are giving way to Mandarin-primary schools in which Mongolian is an elective course) but they might be facing the greatest and most direct pressure as a result of instability in the region. The thing is, this is exactly where specific details, starting with but not limited to actual numbers, become important. There's a big difference between mandatory schooling for some adults who get to go home on weekends and for all children who board there for months, for instance. The former, more mild-sounding case still represents a top-down attempt to sculpt a population's cultural and religious beliefs to be friendlier to the state, obviously, but it's a far cry from trying to annihilate a culture outright, and as I've said before there's a sharp divide between trying to forcibly drive minorities into the workforce and trying to forcibly push minorities out of the workforce even if you use cops and holding facilities to do either job.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:46
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Grapplejack posted:A lot of people agree with you that it isn't a 'genocide' but it's designed to homogenize and culturally assimilate a smaller minority, similarly to the reservation school poo poo the US did While also giving grants to preserve the culture?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:46
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THS posted:and the US government wants you to believe there are millions of people in them, being forcibly sterilized, as do separatist groups based out of DC, all with the goal of manufacturing consent for the new cold war, and to juice the military industrial complex so we can confront china. the sanctions have already begun. sanctions tend not to escalate, though, im sure ah yes, sanctions, the peacekeeper's quiver of arrows,
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Mar 25, 2021 18:47
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fanfic insert posted:While also giving grants to preserve the culture? The US has an entire government division for this, yeah. 
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Mar 25, 2021 18:48
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the more i think about it, the more i agree with that poster from earlier. if we can't agree on sources of information then our realities do not intersect, and i'm not sure what sort of useful interactions can come out of that
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Mar 25, 2021 18:48
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posting is its own point
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Mar 25, 2021 18:50
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fanfic insert posted:Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France etc etc etc are also doing counter-terrorism stuff? whats your point? some do it more heavy handed than others and some stray into human rights abuses and others stray into genocide, like saudi arabia and the us are doing in Yemen.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:50
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tbh it's a bit unfair to dismiss zenz as nothing but a state department shill, we should at least acknowledge his contributions to the field of theology
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Mar 25, 2021 18:51
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Serf posted:the more i think about it, the more i agree with that poster from earlier. if we can't agree on sources of information then our realities do not intersect, and i'm not sure what sort of useful interactions can come out of that Having a thread about it for people to talk about it even if no one is convinced of anything helps take the pressure off and removes an otherwise touchy topic from other threads, at the very least.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:51
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Gringostar posted:if their cultural identity wasn't repressed or exterminated then no I'm afraid it's not whoopsie-doodle quote:Of the 110,000 Japanese Americans detained by the United States government during World War II, 30,000 were children.[128] Most were school-age children, so educational facilities were set up in the camps. Allowing them to continue their education, however, did not erase the potential for traumatic experiences during their overall time in the camps.[129] The government had not adequately planned for the camps, and no real budget or plan was set aside for the new camp educational facilities.[130] Camp schoolhouses were crowded and had insufficient materials, books, notebooks, and desks for students. Not only that the education/instruction was all in English, the schools in Japanese internment camps also didn't have any books or supplies to go on as they opened. The state decided to issue a few books only a month after the opening.[131] Wood stoves were used to heat the buildings, and instead of using separate rooms for different kinds of activities only partitions were used to accomplish that. Japanese internment camps also did not have any libraries (and consequently no library books), writing arm chairs or desks, and no science equipment.[132] These 'schoolhouses' were essentially prison blocks that contained few windows. In the Southwest, when temperatures rose and the schoolhouse filled, the rooms would be sweltering and unbearable.[130] Class sizes were immense. At the height of its attendance, the Rohwer Camp of Arkansas reached 2,339, with only 45 certified teachers.[133] The student to teacher ratio in the camps was 48:1 in elementary schools and 35:1 for secondary schools, compared to the national average of 28:1.[134] This was due to a few things. One of them was that there was a general teacher shortage in the US at the moment, and the fact that the teachers were required to live in those poor conditions in the camps themselves.[131] "There was persistent mud or dust, heat, mosquitoes, poor food and living conditions, inadequate instructional supplies, and a half mile or more walk each day just to and from the school block".[135] Despite the triple salary increase in the internment camps, they were still unable to fill in all the needed teacher positions with certified personnel, and so in the end they had to hire non-certified teacher detainees to help out the teachers as assistants.[131]
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Mar 25, 2021 18:52
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Dolphin posted:"including" weird how that was the only group they actually bothered to mention then also weird how it turns out all these thousands of sources you keep throwing out all happen to link back to the same discredited crank. one would think that you should be able to see a pattern emerging here at some point
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Mar 25, 2021 18:52
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Serf posted:the more i think about it, the more i agree with that poster from earlier. if we can't agree on sources of information then our realities do not intersect, and i'm not sure what sort of useful interactions can come out of that
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Mar 25, 2021 18:52
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Grapplejack posted:The US has an entire government division for this, yeah. So explain how this works in China then, how are they trying to destroy the culture by first giving them decades of grants to standardize their script and language(which is different from the majority Han) only to then decades later turn around to start destroying it while also simultaneously keep giving grants to cultural centers? Are they forcing them to spend the grants on secretly embedding anti-Islam messaging in their textbooks or something? Was giving them exemptions from the 1 child policy also a plan to overpopulate them so they'd all starve or something? I don't understand how this is suppose to destroy the culture, which is what people are claiming the genocide is about.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:53
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Grapplejack posted:Having a thread about it for people to talk about it even if no one is convinced of anything helps take the pressure off and removes an otherwise touchy topic from other threads, at the very least. its entertaining, i mean, just not useful. like we're not gonna actually solve the issue of the moderation problems in this here thread, something will be arbitrarily handed down from on high, and i don't think the skeptics are gonna be happy with the result lol
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Mar 25, 2021 18:53
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Dolphin posted:my point is that "anti-terrorism" is a very popular euphemism for doing unconscionable poo poo I agree, and definitely think there's a self-serving element to the CCP's policies in Xinjiang for which counter-terrorism just serves as a pretext or excuse. The question is not whether Pres. Xi's heart weighs less than a feather, but what the self-serving element is. How is China cynically, materialistically advancing its own interests by repressing certain kinds of Islamic practice in Xinjiang? The best answer is that it is speeding up the rate at which certain rural or marginal populations enter the urban workforce.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:54
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Dolphin posted:my point is that "anti-terrorism" is a very popular euphemism for doing unconscionable poo poo You're the one saying we should be looking at every at a case-by-case basis but now you're not onboard with that anymore?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:54
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Cerebral Bore posted:weird how that was the only group they actually bothered to mention then i am in no way defending michael moore.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:54
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Dolphin posted:this whole thing could easily be cleared up by letting reporters tour the facilities. I'm sure it's just a big misunderstanding. i actually don't think it would clear up anything. the
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Mar 25, 2021 18:55
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fanfic insert posted:You're the one saying we should be looking at every at a case-by-case basis but now you're not onboard with that anymore?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:55
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Dolphin posted:I'm totally onboard with that. may we see the camps and the charges of everyone involved? Yeah we're working on China at the moment, you wanna switch subject?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:56
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Raskolnikov38 posted:whoopsie-doodle and this is why i asked earlier if the Japanese language was outright banned (because i have heard different account of that at different camps), because if it was then yeah... genocide
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Mar 25, 2021 18:56
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Dolphin posted:this whole thing could easily be cleared up by letting reporters tour the facilities. I'm sure it's just a big misunderstanding. wait I thought you had sources, why would you need more reporters to tour the facilities
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Mar 25, 2021 18:57
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Serf posted:i actually don't think it would clear up anything. the
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Mar 25, 2021 18:57
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Dolphin posted:i think about this the same way i think about the camps on our borders. biden isn't letting reporters in but I'm sure everything is nice and happy there and kids are freezing to death in cages. i'm not even sure where this is going anymore. i think having your sources discredited so easily is having a weird effect on your posting
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Mar 25, 2021 18:58
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Serf posted:its entertaining, i mean, just not useful. like we're not gonna actually solve the issue of the moderation problems in this here thread, something will be arbitrarily handed down from on high, and i don't think the skeptics are gonna be happy with the result lol hopefully this is a honeypot and tomorrow we all get perma-banned. finally free
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Mar 25, 2021 18:59
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Raskolnikov38 posted:whoopsie-doodle The worst part about the japanese camps is that I've been to towns in appalachia that are in worse condition This country loving sucks fanfic insert posted:So explain how this works in China then, how are they trying to destroy the culture by first giving them decades of grants to standardize their script and language(which is different from the majority Han) only to then decades later turn around to start destroying it while also simultaneously keep giving grants to cultural centers? Are they forcing them to spend the grants on secretly embedding anti-Islam messaging in their textbooks or something? Was giving them exemptions from the 1 child policy also a plan to overpopulate them so they'd all starve or something? I don't understand how this is suppose to destroy the culture, which is what people are claiming the genocide is about. There's a lot of ways you can frame things using museums to notate traditional culture as being 'outdated and archaic' and reinforce whatever modern beliefs are, and you can do similar things with textbooks in order to reinforce a specific narrative that you're looking to build. The US did it by starving out these groups, but also used framing to enforce their systems on these groups. It's also not super weird that the opinion on these minority groups changed, since the opinion on a lot of things have shifted over time with the Party since Mao, currently landing in Xi's heavily nationalistic government
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Mar 25, 2021 19:00
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Dolphin posted:this whole thing could easily be cleared up by letting reporters tour the facilities. I'm sure it's just a big misunderstanding. they have https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
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Mar 25, 2021 19:00
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Ultimately a lot of it comes down to whether or not you personally trust the chinese government and that's going to color all of your interactions and readings of information, both from them and other groups. That's not really something this thread is going to fix tho lol
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Mar 25, 2021 19:01
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Serf posted:i'm not even sure where this is going anymore. i think having your sources discredited so easily is having a weird effect on your posting
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Mar 25, 2021 19:01
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THS posted:hopefully this is a honeypot and tomorrow we all get perma-banned. finally free that was my initial thought about this thread. and if it's true then lol so be it
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Mar 25, 2021 19:01
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