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Dolphin posted:i didn't read them, the point was that in response to any article whatsoever you all will just engage in character assassination and nitpicking. it's the same poo poo blue checkmarks on Twitter do if you post things about the camps. so you didn't read the sources you provided? what basis do you have for your argument then? if insincere, this is a funny puppetmaster defense, didn't see that one coming at all lol
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Mar 25, 2021 19:02
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Serf posted:that was my initial thought about this thread. and if it's true then lol so be it I think this is just to get people to burn out on the issue and make it so it stops straying outside of non-asia threads 
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Mar 25, 2021 19:03
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Dolphin posted:i didn't read them, the point was that in response to any article whatsoever you all will just engage in character assassination and nitpicking. it's the same poo poo blue checkmarks on Twitter do if you post things about the camps. jesus christ please gently caress off (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 25, 2021 19:03
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Dolphin posted:i didn't read them, the point was that in response to any article whatsoever you all will just engage in character assassination and nitpicking. it's the same poo poo blue checkmarks on Twitter do if you post things about the camps. its very unfair that people are questioning the bad articles you post
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Mar 25, 2021 19:03
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THS posted:hopefully this is a honeypot and tomorrow we all get perma-banned. finally free hail satan
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Mar 25, 2021 19:04
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Serf posted:so you didn't read the sources you provided? what basis do you have for your argument then?
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Mar 25, 2021 19:04
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so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games things with broad agreement: human right abuses are occurring in xinjiang perpetuated by the government of the PRC uighur cultural identity is being corroded by a multitude of forces, some intentional some not that efforts by the US government to end the human right abuses will only make things worse things without broad agreement: the degree of the human right abuses correct? incorrect?
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Mar 25, 2021 19:05
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i dont think this issue is going away, because the “pivot to asia”, and increasing great power competition as china economically surpasses the US, is only going to lead to this all getting nastier, more ideological, and higher stakes
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Mar 25, 2021 19:05
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Dolphin posted:you didn't see it coming when i posted it right in the beginning? should i have slapped an /s on there at the end, would that have helped more than the lol? do you want to make an actual argument now or are you just having fun?
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Mar 25, 2021 19:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games
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Mar 25, 2021 19:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games This sounds about right yeah
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Mar 25, 2021 19:06
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Grapplejack posted:There's a lot of ways you can frame things using museums to notate traditional culture as being 'outdated and archaic' and reinforce whatever modern beliefs are, and you can do similar things with textbooks in order to reinforce a specific narrative that you're looking to build. The US did it by starving out these groups, but also used framing to enforce their systems on these groups. Again, I think your read is correct here - although traditional communism places a huge premium on national/ethnic autonomy, it's generally conceived of in an instrumentalist way, like once these various nationalities find their footing and get proper support for their languages, schooling, etc. they will naturally want to fold themselves into our greater project of socialist construction as the next step. The CCP's ideal outcome is almost certainly that Uyghur culture remains as charming local flavor but loses any and all aspects that interfere with proletarianization and participation in nation-building. However, I don't think that's at all the reasoning behind things like Canadian residential schools or American migrant internment facilities, because the US and Canada actually do need to destroy all remnants of indigenous peoples and systematically deny the humanity of people of color for their economies to work. The US doesn't actually want an open border or a closed border, and it doesn't want Mexicans to either fully assimilate or stay out entirely. Instead, they need to be present in the margins as an easily-exploited underclass.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:07
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games yeah that seems right
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Mar 25, 2021 19:07
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games the efforts to end the human rights abuses by the us are nonexistent and a cover for escalating sinophobic rhetoric. the united states of america does not give a single poo poo about a muslim minority on the other side of the planet except to use them as a wedge for building an international coalition against china's rising economic power
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Mar 25, 2021 19:08
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Grapplejack posted:The worst part about the japanese camps is that I've been to towns in appalachia that are in worse condition Sure, but theres as far as i can tell no reports of them manipulating textbooks and adding propaganda into them. Theres reports of banning of textbooks for unclear reasons but thats not the same thing you're outlining here. And theres the bit where the NYT or WaPo or whichever propaganda outlet it was used a chinese article to point out forced alcohol consumption when it was in fact their own annual cultural festival which everyone was enjoying, so clearly reports coming from those outlets alleging such things aren't to be taken seriously as they've been caught before telling straight up lies. And it's not that i trust the CCP to any degree, it's that I mistrust western propaganda and see no real reason for China to be doing the things that are alleged.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:09
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Dolphin posted:this whole thing could easily be cleared up by letting reporters tour the facilities. I'm sure it's just a big misunderstanding. This has been done already no? Or must they be reporters from Wapo or CNN? Because I have a feleing they have no interest in "clearing up the issue" lol
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Mar 25, 2021 19:09
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Deified Data posted:This has been done already no? Or must they be reporters from Wapo or CNN? Because I have a feleing they have no interest in "clearing up the issue" lol *sniff* yeap, smells like Zyklon B, stings a bit.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:11
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Serf posted:the efforts to end the human rights abuses by the us are nonexistent and a cover for escalating sinophobic rhetoric. the united states of america does not give a single poo poo about a muslim minority on the other side of the planet except to use them as a wedge for building an international coalition against china's rising economic power just putting it out there but good outcomes can still happen even when the motives are suspicious as hell https://mobile.twitter.com/drewfrogger/status/1006266861665873920?lang=en
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Mar 25, 2021 19:13
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Serf posted:the efforts to end the human rights abuses by the us are nonexistent and a cover for escalating sinophobic rhetoric. the united states of america does not give a single poo poo about a muslim minority on the other side of the planet except to use them as a wedge for building an international coalition against china's rising economic power i agree with this but disagree that it's relevant to the discussion of whether genocide is happening
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Mar 25, 2021 19:14
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THS posted:its very unfair that people are questioning the bad articles you post https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/china-uighur-muslims-children-concentration-camps-xinjiang-a9696941.html now which is the more likely explanation, a vast international conspiracy or... you people are disingenuous
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Mar 25, 2021 19:14
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games the error here is that there are no actual efforts by the us government to end any human right abuses, just efforts to weaponize what's happening to justify a conflict
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Mar 25, 2021 19:14
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Flavius Aetass posted:i agree with this but disagree that it's relevant to the discussion of whether genocide is happening its going to become more and more relevant as tensions escalate and efforts to cast china as nazi germany become more intense. manufacturing consent and all that
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Mar 25, 2021 19:15
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THS posted:hopefully this is a honeypot and tomorrow we all get perma-banned. finally free
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Mar 25, 2021 19:19
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Gringostar posted:just putting it out there but good outcomes can still happen even when the motives are suspicious as hell there are Never good outcomes when the US sticks its dick into international geopolitics
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Mar 25, 2021 19:22
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Flavius Aetass posted:i agree with this but disagree that it's relevant to the discussion of whether genocide is happening it is very relevant because if the real motive isn't to stop human rights abuses, which it clearly isn't, then one has to be even more suspicious of any narratives pushed by us-aligned sources
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Mar 25, 2021 19:23
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games This is correct. Realistically no country can force another to end human rights abuses without committing ones themselves, and there's no real way to know if it will be worse until you uncover the full extent of the abuses going on. Personally, I don't give any credence to a nation committing abuses because ultimately it doesn't matter if it's intentional or not; it's happening all the same. Just like the individual level: when someone sincerely informs you that you are harming them and you continue to do so you are now intentionally doing it, regardless of your internal and stated motivation. You've decided the harm is outweighed by whatever benefits you derive. As such, I regard what China is doing to be cultural genocide, similar to what the US did to native Hawaiians. Regardless, the USA doesn't work to prevent human rights abuses for fun, just for profit, just like every other nation. If there wasn't some broader strategic goal here it would result in just verbal admonishments, not economic sanctions. fanfic insert posted:Sure, but theres as far as i can tell no reports of them manipulating textbooks and adding propaganda into them. Theres reports of banning of textbooks for unclear reasons but thats not the same thing you're outlining here. There's lots of potential reasons for China to do it. They may be doing it to head off a potential bloody confrontation, they may be doing it to further homogenize their citizens in an attempt to strengthen the national identity, they may be doing it because gently caress 'em, they may be doing it to test how effective this kind of operation is, or they may be doing it for another reason I haven't thought of yet.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:23
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THS posted:there are Never good outcomes when the US sticks its dick into international geopolitics without the us blocking oil sales to which caused the attack on pearl harbor we wouldn't have anime ok, point taken
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Mar 25, 2021 19:25
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Dolphin posted:you don't see the pattern here? literally any article i post, sight unseen, i can predict the response. here let's try this one quote:Now in political asylum in the United States, he tells me: “My family are all in camps or in prison, if they are still alive.” quote:Tahir Imin, founder of the Uighur Times Agency, based in Washington DC, You don't see the problem with this?
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Mar 25, 2021 19:27
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fanfic insert posted:You don't see the problem with this? The victim of an oppressive regime speaking out against them is extraordinarily common. Are you contending that he is wholesale lying about his past?
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Mar 25, 2021 19:30
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the problem here is that finding a bunch of emigrés willing to make poo poo up to support the official us narrative is also extraordinarily common. examples abound. e: not that this phenomenon is limited to the us, but they're currently the overwhelmingly biggest perpetrator of it Cerebral Bore has issued a correction as of 19:35 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 19:32
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THS posted:hopefully this is a honeypot and tomorrow we all get perma-banned. finally free
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Mar 25, 2021 19:33
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i like the implication that it’s insane that there could be an international “conspiracy” led by uhh.. the world’s hegemonic imperialist power, which has been shown time and time and time again in the past to cynically misuse “human rights” (and outright falsify narratives) for its own ends, has basically infinite money to throw at NGOs and think tanks to shape media and public perception, and has every motive to play up their primary geopolitical rival as the new evil empire all brought to you by the National Endowment for Democracy what, are you against democracy or something?
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Mar 25, 2021 19:34
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If I were completely neutral (I'm not) and I saw even one falsified testimony, I'd have serious doubts about why even that one falsified testimony was necessary to convince me in this sea of similar testimonies
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Mar 25, 2021 19:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:the problem here is that finding a bunch of emigrés willing to make poo poo up to support the official us narrative is also extraordinarily common. examples abound. You could make this statement about anything negative said about the US as well. People will sometimes exaggerate their abuses but that doesn't mean the abuses didn't occur. Given that the broad consensus is that China is doing something hosed up, but the severity is unclear, it seems odd to dismiss someone alleging that something hosed up is happening.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:36
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Admiral Ray posted:The victim of an oppressive regime speaking out against them is extraordinarily common. Are you contending that he is wholesale lying about his past? No I'm saying he set up shop in the most (legally) corrupt city in the world starting up a publication which states quote:
on their about page. The guy is clearly a separatist(not bad in itself) and biased as any other source making it suspicious at best. I'm sure he suffered from the CCP but he's still a propaganda tool, knowingly or not. I don't know of many refugees having the capital to start up news organizations without funding from somewhere else, is what im saying. I'm willing to be proven wrong but you gotta at least admit its suspicious.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:38
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i feel like we're forgetting that the official bidenist-harrisist line is that china gets to do whatever they want because they have a different culture
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Mar 25, 2021 19:38
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anyone pushing for an East Turkistan should be viewed like they just admitted they are pro ISIS
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Mar 25, 2021 19:44
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Serf posted:the efforts to end the human rights abuses by the us are nonexistent and a cover for escalating sinophobic rhetoric. the united states of america does not give a single poo poo about a muslim minority on the other side of the planet except to use them as a wedge for building an international coalition against china's rising economic power
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Mar 25, 2021 19:47
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Admiral Ray posted:You could make this statement about anything negative said about the US as well. People will sometimes exaggerate their abuses but that doesn't mean the abuses didn't occur. Given that the broad consensus is that China is doing something hosed up, but the severity is unclear, it seems odd to dismiss someone alleging that something hosed up is happening. except that just because something hosed up is happening doesn't mean that every hosed up thing that someone is alleging is happening and again we know for a fact that such allegations have routinely been made up from whole cloth to justify what the us wants to do for unrelated reasons. suspicion is therefore entirely warranted on the basis of simple pattern recognition.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:except that just because something hosed up is happening doesn't mean that every hosed up thing that someone is alleging is happening i always think back to that kuwaiti girl who gave that sincere-sounding speech about saddam's stormtroopers going into hospitals and pulling babies out of the incubators... and then none of that turned out to be true conversely, americans were hesitant to believe reports of the nazi concentration camps partially because we had bought into propaganda about german soldiers in world war 1 mutilating nuns and poo poo
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Mar 25, 2021 19:52
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