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fanfic insert posted:No I'm saying he set up shop in the most (legally) corrupt city in the world starting up a publication which states Everyone involved in international relations is a propaganda tool. I'm not surprised that he would find funding for this in a nation motivated to take down China, but that doesn't make his claims false. I agree that means we need to be careful about what we hear and not accept it uncritically, but this is a fight between a rising power and a declining power, so both are highly motivated to obfuscate the reality on the ground. Is the US using this in an attempt to strength its hegemony and maintain power because it's being confronted by a competitor? Yes. Is China trying to strengthen its own position in the face of that? Yes. But neither of those means the people claiming to have been monstrously abused are lying, it simply means their stories are being used by the powerful to maintain or extend power. The powerful have always used stories of oppression to extend their power, but that doesn't mean oppression doesn't exist. To be clear, I would be less inclined to believe the claims made if they were truly outrageous, like Nazi level stuff with industrialized death camps or even Armenian Genocide level mass graves, but it's not. It's the same kind of hosed up thing the US and other Western nations have done multiple times. It's not Trail of Tears level, but it is residential schools level.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:52
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Cerebral Bore posted:except that just because something hosed up is happening doesn't mean that every hosed up thing that someone is alleging is happening That's true, we need to be careful about the claims made, but in doing so we can't simply reject them out of hand, or reject the person making them unless they have a clear pattern of lying about poo poo. Even if we think it's suspicious that doesn't justify, imo, outright dismissal.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:54
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like, basically every single war or conflict that the us has started since forever has been based on more or less blatant lies, many of which came from political emigrés precisely because of the air of authenticity that it gives the narrative. if you're the imperial hegemon you can always find someone willing to go out and bullshit up any story you can think of. this shouldn't be controversial in any way, it's literally how things have always worked
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Mar 25, 2021 19:57
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Comrade Koba posted:tbh it's a bit unfair to dismiss zenz as nothing but a state department shill, we should at least acknowledge his contributions to the field of theology lmao
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Mar 25, 2021 20:04
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Serf posted:i always think back to that kuwaiti girl who gave that sincere-sounding speech about saddam's stormtroopers going into hospitals and pulling babies out of the incubators... and then none of that turned out to be true This is my entire issue with this. This problem we're having in this thread is born from the fact that the US constantly lies about these things in order to justify their own atrocities, so in my opinion it falls on us to reflexively reject anything coming from the US state or anything affiliated to it until there are independent trustworthy sources, until then it should be viewed as empire doing empire and if we let them do it unopposed we're going to be accomplices in creating a situation much much worse then the one in Xinjiang right now on a much larger scale. One story i learned early on in life about Nazi germany was 2 school girls walking home from school encountering a mob that had surrounded their Jewish neighbors and had forced them clean the pavement with their own toothbrushes. Everyone there was cheering it on until this 10 year old girl spoke up and asked them what the hell was wrong with them and if they had lost their humanity. The crowd immediately dispersed. If we don't oppose them by speaking up we're nothing but accomplices to the next US made atrocity.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:08
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fanfic insert posted:You don't see the problem with this? It's the same thing chuds and blue checkmarks do when you say like "no, actually most undocumented immigrants pay taxes and are less violent than the general populace" and they go "heh, look at that source  "
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Mar 25, 2021 20:32
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Cerebral Bore posted:like, basically every single war or conflict that the us has started since forever has been based on more or less blatant lies, many of which came from political emigrés precisely because of the air of authenticity that it gives the narrative. if you're the imperial hegemon you can always find someone willing to go out and bullshit up any story you can think of. I'm not disputing this. I've literally agreed with this point. I just also apply it to a rising power that wants to supplant the US, because why wouldn't they use the same tactics? They work brilliantly. It's in China's best interest to beat the US at their own game, here. fanfic insert posted:This is my entire issue with this. This problem we're having in this thread is born from the fact that the US constantly lies about these things in order to justify their own atrocities, so in my opinion it falls on us to reflexively reject anything coming from the US state or anything affiliated to it until there are independent trustworthy sources, until then it should be viewed as empire doing empire and if we let them do it unopposed we're going to be accomplices in creating a situation much much worse then the one in Xinjiang right now on a much larger scale. But how do you define independent trustworthy sources? What does that look like? Because I largely agree with you, but if we can't define what a trustworthy source on this looks like it amounts to us doing the same thing anyway. Being in a Boy who Cried Wolf situation is hosed up, yes, but unlike the story there's more than one person doing that here.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:32
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Dolphin posted:you don't see the pattern here? literally any article i post, sight unseen, i can predict the response. here let's try this one I came into this thread thinking that things were probably really bad but thankfully your posting has helped me see clearly that this poo poo is definitely being overblown and manufactured. JFC dude - you have admitted that you have no actual proof and that you've basically come to your conclusion from the overall zeitgeist because we are completely awash in propaganda at all times. Which is exactly what everyone you are arguing with is saying.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:35
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Dolphin posted:Again, as I stated, I'm not reading these articles. This is an exercise where I test a hypothesis that the response to any article or source will be met with the same strategy of attack the source, dismiss the data, allege conflict of interest. in your hypothetical example the person doesn't provide a source, they're just making claim. why is the chud/blue checkmark talking about something that wasn't provided?
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Mar 25, 2021 20:37
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I do want to say that even though I think totally dismissing all claims is too much, I'm glad this thread exists because I've tried to say the same poo poo I've said here on other webzones and it does not go over well, and by that I mean when I've said that the US lies a lot people get crazy defensive.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:46
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Admiral Ray posted:But how do you define independent trustworthy sources? What does that look like? Because I largely agree with you, but if we can't define what a trustworthy source on this looks like it amounts to us doing the same thing anyway. Being in a Boy who Cried Wolf situation is hosed up, yes, but unlike the story there's more than one person doing that here. I'm not sure, I think it's something you know when you see it, or rather if there is a absence of reasons of distrust. If someone like Abby Martin or Glenn Greenwald, not that they're infallible sources, but that they've made careers out of criticizing the US empire, would make it more trustworthy if they went there and came back saying its genocide, that would likely change my mind cause i've seen them go places to specifically debunk the US empire line. Admiral Ray posted:Everyone involved in international relations is a propaganda tool. I'm not surprised that he would find funding for this in a nation motivated to take down China, but that doesn't make his claims false. I agree that means we need to be careful about what we hear and not accept it uncritically, but this is a fight between a rising power and a declining power, so both are highly motivated to obfuscate the reality on the ground. I'll agree with this almost entirely, except for the last bit. I'd be totally onboard if the claim was human rights abuses, which is what it seems like to me. The thing about crying genocide is that its over the top and smells like its just US empire using the worst word they can think of to justify regime change in China. The US has definitely done and is doing equal stuff, which is why they have to use the specific word "genocide" to wash them of the double standard.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:48
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Dolphin posted:Again, as I stated, I'm not reading these articles. This is an exercise where I test a hypothesis that the response to any article or source will be met with the same strategy of attack the source, dismiss the data, allege conflict of interest. As someone who consumes media, especially if you are a leftist you have to be mindful of the biases that are coming from media. We've seen time and time again, western media manufacture consent for American imperialism. You should be dubious of it by now. People keep on pointing out the sources because it's very telling that all roads lead to the same end source. A born again evangelical who believes that god has chosen him and the US to destroy the CPC, doesn't speak a lick of Chinese, and is part of a "scholar" of the Victims of Communism foundation. The same foundation that wanted to mark all nazi deaths in ww2 and coronavirus deaths as victims of communism. How on earth can you trust someone like that?
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Mar 25, 2021 20:53
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whiskey patrol posted:I came into this thread thinking that things were probably really bad but thankfully your posting has helped me see clearly that this poo poo is definitely being overblown and manufactured. this is where im at. it's just incredible how the guy doesn't even read what he's posting and then says "heh gotcha you proved me right by showing this was funded by the US state department" and then moves onto the next thing to not read and then post. just absolutely poo poo tier brain at work here.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:54
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Dolphin posted:Again, as I stated, I'm not reading these articles. This is an exercise where I test a hypothesis that the response to any article or source will be met with the same strategy of attack the source, dismiss the data, allege conflict of interest. If you keep giving sources with the exact same kind of problematic sourcing what else do you expect? I'm still going to call it a pile of poo poo even if you replace the dog poo poo with cat poo poo vvv this fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 21:02 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 20:55
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I don't think you need to have a single source you can trust. The same way the whole genocide argument is dubious due to a few questionable sources, it would also be more believable if there were reports from a large number of more believable individuals or outlets. There really doesn't need to be one person that says "This is exactly what is happening" and we trust them. It's not like the narrative for "America is hostile to China" is based on a single piece of evidence. It's just a pattern you can see form over past several years with mass media stories and people serving in the military talking about how that's the future enemy.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:00
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whiskey patrol posted:I came into this thread thinking that things were probably really bad but thankfully your posting has helped me see clearly that this poo poo is definitely being overblown and manufactured. What I have a problem with is people vehemently denying stories from a multitude of people claiming this is occurring. Their experiences could separately be reasonable doubted, but taken as a whole I think it's really lovely to pronounce that you have the answer to this and the answer is it's just the US state department and a couple wackos and no one is actually suffering, and there is not an atrocity happening. That's my point with the article thing, it's not "hah, THIS is the smoking gun" it's "here's more stories for you to dismiss while people are potentially suffering abroad" which maybe other people are comfortable with. I'm not.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:01
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Admiral Ray posted:I'm not disputing this. I've literally agreed with this point. I just also apply it to a rising power that wants to supplant the US, because why wouldn't they use the same tactics? They work brilliantly. It's in China's best interest to beat the US at their own game, here. they don't use the same tactics because the majority of us atrocities are either done entirely openly or have clear physical evidence to prove their existence as opposed to having to guess what's really going on from second-hand inference and testimony from political exiles. its just that the us is a devil cracker nation and the global hegemon so nobody cares
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Mar 25, 2021 21:02
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AnimeIsTrash posted:As someone who consumes media, especially if you are a leftist you have to be mindful of the biases that are coming from media. We've seen time and time again, western media manufacture consent for American imperialism. You should be dubious of it by now.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:03
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AnimeIsTrash posted:As someone who consumes media, especially if you are a leftist you have to be mindful of the biases that are coming from media. We've seen time and time again, western media manufacture consent for American imperialism. You should be dubious of it by now. if you actually dig into zenz's actual reports, they are a lot less sinister than most of the headlines, and if you are able to notice all his contradictions you can get some actual knowledge of the CPC's policies. like he'll assert that uyghur language is being suppressed in schools but then go on to more or less accurately describe what is essentially the formation of a bilingual program. or how xinjiang has been opening child concentration camps but then describes what are actually just normal boarding schools but with walled compounds (which are not unusual in china whatsoever)
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Mar 25, 2021 21:04
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kind of like how if you want accurate reporting on china's economic systems, the WSJ and FT can actually be good sources if you can ignore the language that supposed to terrify you
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Mar 25, 2021 21:05
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Dolphin posted:My issue is not with people saying "we don't know for certain what's happening over there" because I totally agree with that. As I'm sure most people agree (I think) the CCP like other governments tightly controls their state secrets and a lot of this info is nigh impossible to accurately estimate barring the CCP releasing it. The only people who could possibly have access to that info is the CCP, or possibly other states' intelligence communities. i'm unclear on what you would like to happen next. what are you gonna do about the suffering that you think is happening? also, the reason people keep shooting down your sources is because they're linked either to an insane guy who wants to paint china as the new nazi germany or the military-industrial complex that would like to immiserate more people on an international scale to ensure the steady flow of profit
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Mar 25, 2021 21:05
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Dolphin posted:That's my point with the article thing, it's not "hah, THIS is the smoking gun" it's "here's more stories for you to dismiss while people are potentially suffering abroad" which maybe other people are comfortable with. I'm not. come up with better evidence then? you don't get to just pretend that multiple articles about something means it's real when you keep showing it's from sources that are heavily influenced by the US. googling "uyghur genocide" and copy pasting everything you find isn't data. im sure you could also google "deep state pedophiles" and find plenty of dubiously sourced stories about whoever. are you just going to believe those too, because there's lots of them?
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Mar 25, 2021 21:06
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Serf posted:i'm unclear on what you would like to happen next. what are you gonna do about the suffering that you think is happening? this is like "whats your solution to the concentration camps on the border" it's not my loving job. here? id like for people not to do what could amount to genocide denial. like ten years from now it could turn out that everything was fine, or it could turn out that china has been forcing abortions and sterilizing women and confiscating children for the past decade. is that a good chance to take because a lot of the info came from a goofball?
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Mar 25, 2021 21:08
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Dolphin posted:is that a good chance to take because a lot of the info came from a goofball? so if the lie is crazy enough it doesn't matter who it came from? jeez dude
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Mar 25, 2021 21:09
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:come up with better evidence then? you don't get to just pretend that multiple articles about something means it's real when you keep showing it's from sources that are heavily influenced by the US. googling "uyghur genocide" and copy pasting everything you find isn't data. im sure you could also google "deep state pedophiles" and find plenty of dubiously sourced stories about whoever. are you just going to believe those too, because there's lots of them?
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Mar 25, 2021 21:10
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:so if the lie is crazy enough it doesn't matter who it came from? jeez dude
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Mar 25, 2021 21:11
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Dolphin posted:i mean there are a lot of eyewitness reports about individual experiences but you're not going to find a comprehensive account, it doesn't just exist, it couldn't given ccp policies but there aren't. you posted a site that says it doesn't verify any stories sent to it in any way and only exists to perpetuate the idea this is happening.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:12
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Dolphin posted:this is the loving worst. The problem lies in that anybody doing what you are doing, you are inherently pushing the US imperialist lie because to the average person, if you are presented of claims of "maaaaybe this place is doing a genocide, maybe it isn't", the general public is going to push for the intervention of stopping that "maybe genocide" because not doing so would be far far worse. Edit: So even if you get to feel morally superior that "well, I'd never actually want any intervention to happen", it doesn't matter because by propagating the bullshit, its still enabling it to happen.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:14
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Dolphin posted:this is the loving worst. so we should accuse china of genocide up until the moment it is proven that they weren't? this is highly confusing. what sort of proof would you need to declare that the genocide isn't actually occurring? like so far you've done nothing but post complete nonsense made up and exaggerated by various groups and individuals, so where is the nucleus of this unwavering belief you have in china committing genocide? it seems like you want to have us nod along with any argument thrown out by lunatics and state department ghouls with no analysis on the off chance that they're telling the truth this one time your goals seem highly confused and irrational
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Mar 25, 2021 21:17
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:but there aren't. you posted a site that says it doesn't verify any stories sent to it in any way and only exists to perpetuate the idea this is happening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5zZxlTN2rE Now admittedly, this is one person's account and it's unsourced and couldn't be used as evidence of a holocaust level atrocity by itself but there are a lot of people talking about it.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:17
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Dolphin posted:Now admittedly, this is one person's account and it's unsourced and couldn't be used as evidence of a holocaust level atrocity by itself but there are a lot of people talking about it. 
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Mar 25, 2021 21:20
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Serf posted:so we should accuse china of genocide up until the moment it is proven that they weren't? this is highly confusing. what sort of proof would you need to declare that the genocide isn't actually occurring? like so far you've done nothing but post complete nonsense made up and exaggerated by various groups and individuals, so where is the nucleus of this unwavering belief you have in china committing genocide? it seems like you want to have us nod along with any argument thrown out by lunatics and state department ghouls with no analysis on the off chance that they're telling the truth this one time like it's easy to just go "we don't know" rather than "gently caress you the state department is lying there is no ethnic cleansing, no genocide, i deny it"
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Mar 25, 2021 21:22
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Dolphin posted:My issue is not with people saying "we don't know for certain what's happening over there" because I totally agree with that. As I'm sure most people agree (I think) the CCP like other governments tightly controls their state secrets and a lot of this info is nigh impossible to accurately estimate barring the CCP releasing it. The only people who could possibly have access to that info is the CCP, or possibly other states' intelligence communities. What specifically is the this? I think that is the major source of disagreement here. I would say there is absolutely suffering in the camps. Coming into this thread, I would have absolutely said cultural genocide was the correct term, but I think there's definitely some doubt that that's right now. And it's pretty clear that this is ambiguous enough that people probably shouldn't be banned outright for genocide denial for asking questions. If it's all from the same underlying lovely data it doesn't matter how many different people tweet it out etc. This is exactly like Iraq 2.0 with the uranium and WMD claims (except this doesn't even have a Colin Powell on the podium vouching for it). A couple of dubious sources get echoed ad inifinitum until they are taken as gospel by too many people because "lots of people are saying this" but it's really only a few sources. It's like falling for one guy who's running a bunch of sock puppets.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:26
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Dolphin posted:my goal is mainly to not look back on this forum in ten-twenty years and see a haven for genocide deniers, that's pretty much it. poo poo like "drat right I deny the uighur genocide!" and other posts irk me and remind me of a lot of other kinds of denial that are really lovely so you want to modify the behavior of other people to align with your fervent belief in a genocide for which you have no substantive proof. instead of making a convincing argument you chose to spam random links all day with the goal of proving that other people have better research skills than you? again, this is confused and irrational. i don't think a single person here has claimed that they know what is happening in xinjiang and the prevailing attitude is the "we don't know" that you claim to seek. but what people won't do that you want them to is swallow all sorts of propaganda and wild reports with no evidence behind them simply because you demand it. either back up your arguments or don't be surprised when they're rejected
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Mar 25, 2021 21:29
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whiskey patrol posted:What specifically is the this? I think that is the major source of disagreement here. I would say there is absolutely suffering in the camps. Coming into this thread, I would have absolutely said cultural genocide was the correct term, but I think there's definitely some doubt that that's right now. And it's pretty clear that this is ambiguous enough that people probably shouldn't be banned outright for genocide denial for asking questions. genocide denial is an extremely useful weapon states use to manufacture consent and seed doubt. there are so many examples of this and it's actually really easy to just not take part in it, even by accident.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:29
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Admiral Ray posted:To be clear, I would be less inclined to believe the claims made if they were truly outrageous, like Nazi level stuff with industrialized death camps or even Armenian Genocide level mass graves, but it's not. a bunch of those outrageous claims exist as well, though they're not as common. there's been claims that inmates are force-fed pork and alcohol in between the daily gang rape sessions and live flayings.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:31
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Dolphin posted:it's not the same as iraq, there's a difference between having bombs and committing genocide. it's the stakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmfVs3WaE9Y
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Mar 25, 2021 21:32
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Dolphin posted:it's not the same as iraq, there's a difference between having bombs and committing genocide. it's the stakes. it sounds like you're willing to believe basically any headline if there's any chance it could be true, just in case.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:32
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Saddam had literally committed genocide by the definitions in this thread.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:33
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I meant my analogy about the process of manufacturing consent and media manipulation. This is is so loving similar, I feel dumb for not seeing it sooner. I saw through the Iraq poo poo but I was soft on this bc I got old and lazy. Anyway, my position is we don't know what's going on because the state department is a liar.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:33
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