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Baykin posted:There is absolutely nothing about that post that should have been banned. A 6er for using a meme maybe at the absolute most. That particular poster apparently denied lots of genocides. According to the rap sheet.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:20
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Dolphin posted:That's my point with the article thing, it's not "hah, THIS is the smoking gun" it's "here's more stories for you to dismiss while people are potentially suffering abroad" which maybe other people are comfortable with. I'm not. It takes nothing and asks nothing to buy into a genocide narrative. You're either right, in which case everyone here is pretty much in agreement, or 5 years later when nothing pans out you can say "Guess I was wrong! What did you want me to do, stay silent?" It's good that you can do that, but to say "maybe you are comfortable with genocide, but I'm not" is just incredibly loaded lol People who disagree with the western narrative here face a different proposition. To help avert crippling sanctions or even potentially a hot war in the indeterminate future we more or less have to be labeled genocide deniers for employing elementary media literacy and anti-imperialist thought. We will never be proven right. If in 10 years the narrative crumbles and we all forget who Adrian Zenz or any of these NGOs are, it doesn't mean we were right, it just means there was probably a genocide and China probably got away with it, and any suggestion that pushing back against this narrative served a higher purpose will be roundly dismissed as hysterics. I'm not comfortable being led by the nose into another cold war to preserve American hegemony, and I don't think you are either, but this is without a doubt the harder path to walk. I'm literally afraid of losing friends over this poo poo lol. It's Iraq all over again. Baykin posted:There is absolutely nothing about that post that should have been banned. A 6er for using a meme maybe at the absolute most. It's a good post lol. I don't really care to investigate their rap sheet, that poster being a scumbag doesn't make that post any less relevant.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:20
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AnimeIsTrash posted:I don't know if this is a thread for greater moderation issues but can we talk about megathreads? Marriages so weak as to get killed by SA are better off destroyed.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:21
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Deified Data posted:It takes nothing and asks nothing to buy into a genocide narrative. You're either right, in which case everyone here is pretty much in agreement, or 5 years later when nothing pans out you can say "Guess I was wrong! What did you want me to do, stay silent?" It's good that you can do that, but to say "maybe you are comfortable with genocide, but I'm not" is just incredibly loaded lol the worst part of it all is that it doesn't really matter what is true or what individuals on sa believe. the things that are going to happen are going to be made to happen by the rich and powerful and all we get to do is watch
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Mar 25, 2021 22:22
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:look i dunno about you guys but im ready to believe a capitalist country is doing terrible things to its citizens The thing is that China is in a different stage of capitalist development and therefore has different economic incentives that it will use state repression to pursue. 18th century England wasn't concerned over much with the immiseration of internal ethnic minorities because it was still trying to get as many of its own people out of subsistence farming or handicraft and into wage labor as possible, and to extend the length of the workweek from like four days to six.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:23
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Raskolnikov38 posted:he works for the organization that lists the nazis as victims of communism At least they are right about something.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:26
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Serf posted:gotta be the covid thread. the spouse facts revealed there have been wild F Stop Fitzgerald posted:that was the covid thread, which incidentally, last winter, was the most racist ive ever seen cspam since back when we had actual trump voters here Lmao
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Mar 25, 2021 22:32
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Ferrinus posted:You say "multitude" but in fact all your non-academic sourced keep collapsing back to the same several individuals or think tanks and unless I skimmed too aggressively you haven't posted any academic sources yet. Even the narratives of psychos like Zenz, when actually read rather than imagined and generalized from, end up describing this empty business like... there are boarding schools. There are cops. Etc. This isn't true. So this is a single example, but for me is one of the big reasons I simply accept that China is committing cultural genocide (the distinction between genocide and cultural genocide is quite slim): In Zenz's report "Sterilizations, IUDs, and Mandatory Birth Control" (PDF) he makes the claim that 80% of net IUD placements are taking place in Xinjiang (calculated as placements minus removals). Chinadaily attempts to rebut that claim here, but they get the claim wrong: quote:Rumor: In 2018, at least 80 percent of the new surgeries of IUD placements in China were preformed in Xinjiang. Zenz specifically stated this: quote:By 2019, Xinjiang planned to subject at least 80 percent of women of childbearing age in the rural southern four minority prefectures to intrusive birth prevention surgeries (IUDs or sterilizations), with actual shares likely being much higher. In 2018, 80 percent of all net added IUD placements in China (calculated as placements minus removals) were performed in Xinjiang, despite the fact that the region only makes up 1.8 percent of the nation’s population. Net IUD placement, not overall. Chinadaily also helpfully posts this image from the China Health Statistics Yearbook 2019:  Now Xinjiang is the very last row, and the second column is total placements, with the 4th column being removals. Using net IUD = placements - removals, then: (328475 - 89018)/(3774318 - 3474467) = 239457/299851 = 0.7986 ~ 80%. Here we have something we can all easily check using China released information that Zenz is right about The attempted rebuttal by Chinadaily doesn't even get the claim correct and the information they show even confirms Zenz's claim. Based on this, I'm not sure why I should immediately dismiss the claims of others. Zenz's claim was crystal clear, so Chinadaily is simply purposely strawmanning this in order to muddy the water, because they know most people won't even perform a cursory check.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:37
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Dolphin posted:not giving the guy any credit, as I said I don't even know much about zenz but is there a specific reason other than him being a religious idiot that he's blacklisted? He's not blacklisted, which is kind of the point. He is everywhere. If all the more sensational claims go back to one expert on China, Tibet and the Rapture, employed by the Victims of Communism Foundation, as well as a single report consisting of interviews of 8 villagers around Kashagar then what do you have? It's not incontrovertible proof of genocide. Edit: Actually I don't know if he is employed by them or just a member. Minor point. genericnick has issued a correction as of 22:47 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 22:38
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it was really not dissimilar to the current discussion where you hear about some horrific thing china is doing, like welding apartments shut or stuffing ppl into covid death cube and without fail it ended up being some doctored/out of context video from falun gong
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Mar 25, 2021 22:39
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Deified Data posted:It takes nothing and asks nothing to buy into a genocide narrative. You're either right, in which case everyone here is pretty much in agreement, or 5 years later when nothing pans out you can say "Guess I was wrong! What did you want me to do, stay silent?" It's good that you can do that, but to say "maybe you are comfortable with genocide, but I'm not" is just incredibly loaded lol yeah agreed here. the fact is, it’s far easier to bandwagon on the current anti-china media circus, because worst case scenario: how were you supposed to see through such widespread media and state propaganda? a lot of people fell for iraq too, or even if they opposed it, they did not oppose very stridently or speak out - because hey saddam was a bad guy far more likely in ten years at this pace, we are in a proxy war with china, lots of people are dead, millions are displaced, and we find out later that the environment leading up to the conflict (of which the xinjiang narrative was one part of) was manufacturing consent for another brutal imperial war the risk is less “what if you denied a genocide” and more “what if you are complicit in the run-up to a major war”, for me
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Mar 25, 2021 22:39
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lol flavius going to bat for c-spam is gonna get us all shut down. the perfect ending
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Mar 25, 2021 22:40
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I looked away from this thread for a day and came back to 500 posts and Zenz apologism what the gently caress
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Mar 25, 2021 22:40
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THS posted:the risk is less “what if you denied a genocide” and more “what if you are complicit in the run-up to a major war”, for me and that we have gobs upon gobs of evidence for the latter as opposed to the former
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Mar 25, 2021 22:41
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:it was really not dissimilar to the current discussion where you hear about some horrific thing china is doing, like welding apartments shut or stuffing ppl into covid death cube and without fail it ended up being some doctored/out of context video from falun gong or all the north korean generals who get shredded by anti-aircraft cannons and thrown into a pit full of hungry dogs, and then show up at a parade three months later which story sticks in people’s minds, the initial claim, or a very quiet retraction under the article (if you even get that)
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Mar 25, 2021 22:41
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Serf posted:lol flavius going to bat for c-spam is gonna get us all shut down. the perfect ending honestly respect to flavius for making this thread bc a qcs thread calling him a genocide denier was inevitable
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Mar 25, 2021 22:41
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The Oldest Man posted:I looked away from this thread for a day and came back to 500 posts and Zenz apologism what the gently caress You forgot the part where someone accused Ben/Max of taking Putin money.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:42
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Serf posted:lol flavius going to bat for c-spam is gonna get us all shut down. the perfect ending im so excited now that we know we have some form of action from qcs awaiting admin approval.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:43
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Lol awaiting the great purge to appease the China GBS thread
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Mar 25, 2021 22:43
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Varinn posted:honestly respect to flavius for making this thread bc a qcs thread calling him a genocide denier was inevitable yeah, i've given flavius a lot of poo poo recently but it was nice to see some discussion of this stuff. but it looks like judgment is on its way
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Mar 25, 2021 22:44
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Imagine coming to CSPAM and accusing known journalists who have been on RT, and other foreign networks to talk about American imperialism of being foreign agents. 
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Mar 25, 2021 22:45
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Serf posted:yeah, i've given flavius a lot of poo poo recently but it was nice to see some discussion of this stuff. but it looks like judgment is on its way actually the admins will read the thread and thereby gain a better understanding of the topic, and maybe some more tools for a critical analysis of media 
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Mar 25, 2021 22:47
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THS posted:actually the admins will read the thread and thereby gain a better understanding of the topic, and maybe some more tools for a critical analysis of media yeah rime's issue was linking people to the thread, and also being rime. a more seasoned qcs psycho could've absolutely whipped that crowd into a frenzy before someone actually read whats being posted here
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Mar 25, 2021 22:53
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Relevant Tangent posted:That particular poster apparently denied lots of genocides. According to the rap sheet. It was just him questioning this one a lot.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:02
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:if you actually dig into zenz's actual reports, they are a lot less sinister than most of the headlines, and if you are able to notice all his contradictions you can get some actual knowledge of the CPC's policies. like he'll assert that uyghur language is being suppressed in schools but then go on to more or less accurately describe what is essentially the formation of a bilingual program. or how xinjiang has been opening child concentration camps but then describes what are actually just normal boarding schools but with walled compounds (which are not unusual in china whatsoever) So there are internment camps and boarding schools and the chinese government itself is saying it's trying to change the culture of these people. That sure seems an awful lot like the american or canadian residential school system for natives, which is considered a textbook example of a cultural genocide. I don't see how this is significantly different. Like why do you need to be taking kids and putting them into 'boarding schools'
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Mar 25, 2021 23:05
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btw when does the laundering of Zenz's work through like Bellingcat or white women with smart glasses who look like investigative journalists begin, because he's a huge liability that the current narrative is just kinda coasting on for the time being. I expect by year's end we won't be able to find his name attached to any of this
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Mar 25, 2021 23:05
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the funny thing is, like two years ago i would've totally been onboard with calling this a genocide. but watching trump ramp up the sinophobia throughout his administration, then seeing it explode over covid, and now watching the same thing happen under biden, it set off my alarm bells from before the foreverwar and so i started reading up on what's happening. i remember all this poo poo happening back then, and it just seems to be happening again. time is a flat circle
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Mar 25, 2021 23:06
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Serf posted:the funny thing is, like two years ago i would've totally been onboard with calling this a genocide. but watching trump ramp up the sinophobia throughout his administration, then seeing it explode over covid, and now watching the same thing happen under biden, it set off my alarm bells from before the foreverwar and so i started reading up on what's happening. i remember all this poo poo happening back then, and it just seems to be happening again. time is a flat circle 100% this.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:07
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Yes this time I need to believe the NYT unlike literally every other time in American history when they have pushed us towards conflict. I remember the loving WMD in Iraq and its the same outlets pushing these stories.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:08
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Herstory Begins Now posted:So there are internment camps and boarding schools and the chinese government itself is saying it's trying to change the culture of these people. boarding schools are just common in china. its just compulsory education with dormitory living.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:10
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Herstory Begins Now posted:So there are internment camps and boarding schools and the chinese government itself is saying it's trying to change the culture of these people. There are 6 six languages of ethnic groups besides mandarin tought in Xinjiang, the problem is that the primary education was switched to mandarin. There is not an effort to completely eradicate the language. Will this over the long term lead to diminishing use of other ethnic languages? Yes. But it still is not the same thing done to the native americans.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:So there are internment camps and boarding schools and the chinese government itself is saying it's trying to change the culture of these people. boarding schools seem to be the general form schools take in the western rural region of china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boarding_schools_in_China also looks like in 2001 the government decided to consolidate village schools into boarding schools
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Mar 25, 2021 23:14
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Deified Data posted:btw when does the laundering of Zenz's work through like Bellingcat or white women with smart glasses who look like investigative journalists begin, because he's a huge liability that the current narrative is just kinda coasting on for the time being. I expect by year's end we won't be able to find his name attached to any of this yeah i think Zenz is becoming less useful, the insane book he wrote is legitimately embarrassing. if they are smart they will find some “Eliot Higgins”, the type of guy you can do a nice NYT or Guardian profile of who isn’t of the belief that the End Times are upon us.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:14
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THS posted:yeah i think Zenz is becoming less useful, the insane book he wrote is legitimately embarrassing. if they are smart they will find some “Eliot Higgins”, the type of guy you can do a nice NYT or Guardian profile of who isn’t of the belief that the End Times are upon us. Some D&D goon is probably rubbing their hands eagerly at the opportunity.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:15
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Much like robert evans and brown moses they will be constantly haunted by being called "CIA" in every thread they are in.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:16
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:boarding schools are just common in china. its just compulsory education with dormitory living. besides that's not the claim we're interested in disputing. The west isn't threatening sanctions because China is forcing kids to learn Mandarin, they're doing it because they're being force-fed pork and being buried in mass graves, so let's not adjust the goalposts too far back lol. Xinjiang truthers have a lot to prove, so they may as well start with the hard stuff.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:17
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its easy to paint these buildings as scary and authoritarian because they have concrete walls surrounding the campus with security cameras and guards, and sometimes even barbed wire, but besides the grey walls that also describes the elementary school down my street
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Mar 25, 2021 23:17
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looks like the qcs thread is locked Thanks Mods, you’re always appreciated, and never feel like you aren’t
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Mar 25, 2021 23:19
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Much like robert evans and brown moses they will be constantly haunted by being called "CIA" in every thread they are in. Maybe don't do the bidding of the CIA if you don't want to get called CIA?
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Mar 25, 2021 23:21
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Raskolnikov38 posted:boarding schools seem to be the general form schools take in the western rural region of china yeah that's what I'm specifically wondering about? if like 1-8% of kids in non-rural areas are in boarding schools nationally, why is the number a lot higher in the region where there is a stated vested interest in changing the culture? quote:In ethnic minority provinces such as Guangxi, Tibet, and Yunnan the general percentage of secondary boarders is over 70%
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Mar 25, 2021 23:22
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