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Serf posted:yeah, i've given flavius a lot of poo poo recently but it was nice to see some discussion of this stuff. but it looks like judgment is on its way  You've earned one brownie point, to cover the million you lost over the glemb gelowald thread
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Mar 25, 2021 23:22
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Junkozeyne posted:There are 6 six languages of ethnic groups besides mandarin tought in Xinjiang, the problem is that the primary education was switched to mandarin. There is not an effort to completely eradicate the language. Will this over the long term lead to diminishing use of other ethnic languages? Yes. But it still is not the same thing done to the native americans.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:28
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really queer Christmas posted:
I'm staying out of it. Please don't post that I got mad.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:yeah that's what I'm specifically wondering about? unfortunately my knowledge is only about inner mongolia but there its because the rural people are spread way the gently caress out so its just easier to have kids live in boarding schools than arrange transportation
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Mar 25, 2021 23:30
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Serf posted:the funny thing is, like two years ago i would've totally been onboard with calling this a genocide. but watching trump ramp up the sinophobia throughout his administration, then seeing it explode over covid, and now watching the same thing happen under biden, it set off my alarm bells from before the foreverwar and so i started reading up on what's happening. i remember all this poo poo happening back then, and it just seems to be happening again. time is a flat circle
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Mar 25, 2021 23:31
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Comrade Koba posted:a bunch of those outrageous claims exist as well, though they're not as common. there's been claims that inmates are force-fed pork and alcohol in between the daily gang rape sessions and live flayings. because some QCS idiot apparently thought that this post was an attempt to ridicule abuse survivors, let me clarify that these exact claims have been made and isn’t something I made up for epic cspam lols
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Mar 25, 2021 23:33
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Comrade Koba posted:
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Mar 25, 2021 23:34
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Raskolnikov38 posted:unfortunately my knowledge is only about inner mongolia but there its because the rural people are spread way the gently caress out so its just easier to have kids live in boarding schools than arrange transportation
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Mar 25, 2021 23:35
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Zenz Ljubljana
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Mar 25, 2021 23:35
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https://fsi-live.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/health_and_education_outcomes_of_students_in_rural_china.pdf actually digging into this it seems like the neoliberal school theory of "do more with less money" has infected the PRC as well
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Mar 25, 2021 23:35
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Admiral Ray posted:This isn't true. So this is a single example, but for me is one of the big reasons I simply accept that China is committing cultural genocide (the distinction between genocide and cultural genocide is quite slim): In Zenz's report "Sterilizations, IUDs, and Mandatory Birth Control" (PDF) he makes the claim that 80% of net IUD placements are taking place in Xinjiang (calculated as placements minus removals). Chinadaily attempts to rebut that claim here, but they get the claim wrong: It looks like you're right that China Daily hosed up or even lied when it came to representing Zenz's claim here. However, the measure of "net IUD insertions" itself is extremely weird. Offhand I can't find population studies anywhere else that attempt to make that comparison, probably because if you don't know who is actually installing versus removing birth control devices and why the number gives you almost no information. If all women were to get an IUD at age 20 and then remove that IUD at age 40, for instance, then net IUD insertions would be zero, but there would nevertheless be a very strict birth control regime in place. If, 20 years later, only half of the next cohort of 20 year old women were to get IUDs, while the entirety of the original, now-40 cohort got theirs removed, then "net IUDs installed" would be negative... and yet, we're talking about a situation in which half of all young women are prevented from having children! When I was talking about Zenz's dodgy math I wasn't actually thinking of his birth control math but rather the survey of eight random people to arrive at the "million or more" figure in the first place. Basically, the conclusions he draws from really-existing numbers are not credible.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:36
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Serf posted:the funny thing is, like two years ago i would've totally been onboard with calling this a genocide. but watching trump ramp up the sinophobia throughout his administration, then seeing it explode over covid, and now watching the same thing happen under biden, it set off my alarm bells from before the foreverwar and so i started reading up on what's happening. i remember all this poo poo happening back then, and it just seems to be happening again. time is a flat circle yeah pretty much the same
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Mar 25, 2021 23:36
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Dolphin posted:please no one doxx me but working in northern kenya this used to be the case but after they decentralized their government a lot more schools got built so there's a lot less boarding now so I'm not saying you're wrong but you'd really have to know more details to make that assessment yeah this seems to be a result of putting costs before education "lots of tiny local schools are expensive, lets shove everyone into one big school to maximize efficiency" boy this sure doesn't sound familiar at all
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Mar 25, 2021 23:37
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Flavius Aetass posted:I'm staying out of it. Please don't post that I got mad. Even though I'm almost entirely a lurker (as you made fun of me for the other day) and thus don't really have much of a presence on the forums, I wanna chime in as well and say that this thread went far better than I expected it to and as such I'd like to apologize for being real aggro in the LF thread. More stuff like this thread and less utterly boneheaded posting like in the GG thread seriously goes a long way (to me at least) toward making it seem like you and the others actually care about this forum. So again, good job with this.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:44
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and on the other hand, and without specifically referring to this situation in particular, even though the reasoning for boarding might be innocuous it still presents an ideal scenario for acculturation
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Mar 25, 2021 23:44
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THS posted:yeah agreed here. the fact is, it’s far easier to bandwagon on the current anti-china media circus, because worst case scenario: how were you supposed to see through such widespread media and state propaganda? a lot of people fell for iraq too, or even if they opposed it, they did not oppose very stridently or speak out - because hey saddam was a bad guy more or less this, people are so careful with their moralizing that they tend to overaccumulate whatever graces and glories they think they have regarding their stances to assure themselves that they did the right thing
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Mar 25, 2021 23:46
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THS posted:yeah agreed here. the fact is, it’s far easier to bandwagon on the current anti-china media circus, because worst case scenario: how were you supposed to see through such widespread media and state propaganda? a lot of people fell for iraq too, or even if they opposed it, they did not oppose very stridently or speak out - because hey saddam was a bad guy
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Mar 25, 2021 23:48
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Dolphin posted:if jimmy says the grain elevators are on fire and he's lying, you hit him with the beating stick and hope that he doesn't do it again. if he does it again you say "maybe this time it's true" because it would be really bad if the grain all burnt up.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:49
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I just wanted to chime in to say that this thread was very interesting to read. I don't have a problem with posters calling it genocide, especially if they also use the term (along with "concentration camps") to describe what the US has done and currently does. I do understand the frustration dealing with western media, especially since there aren't many publications who will call our governments treatment of native americans genocide. That absolutely was genocide waaaaaay above and beyond what China is accused of doing today There's a fine line between getting upset about the word for its use as a one sided term to attack china and being one of those weirdos who can't admit china ever does very bad things. I will refrain from using the term in the future re: china but will push back when it turns into CHINA DID NO WRONG
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Mar 25, 2021 23:50
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Baykin posted:im so excited now that we know we have some form of action from qcs awaiting admin approval. Cya all on bread & roses
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Mar 25, 2021 23:52
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OK baizuo posted:Cya all on bread & roses uhhhh lol
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Mar 25, 2021 23:52
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comedyblissoption posted:you got the wrong moral message from that aesop's fable the townspeople were right lmao They lost all their sheep though. They were wrong because they didn't just get a different shephard that didn't suck rear end. Baykin posted:im so excited now that we know we have some form of action from qcs awaiting admin approval. I thought that was in reference to Rime still being allowed to post. They said no action would be taken in this thread.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:54
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i cant wait to see what this admin action is after the problem has already been solved
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Mar 25, 2021 23:55
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Baykin posted:im so excited now that we know we have some form of action from qcs awaiting admin approval. nah, Roth was cool about it and I think the pending action may have to do with Rime
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Mar 25, 2021 23:55
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ffs there is no genocide in china https://twitter.com/TheGrayzoneNews/status/1362600107846361089?s=20 This is Iraqi wmd’s all over again pro tip: don’t trust christian fascists hth
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Mar 25, 2021 23:55
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Ferrinus posted:It looks like you're right that China Daily hosed up or even lied when it came to representing Zenz's claim here. However, the measure of "net IUD insertions" itself is extremely weird. Offhand I can't find population studies anywhere else that attempt to make that comparison, probably because if you don't know who is actually installing versus removing birth control devices and why the number gives you almost no information. If all women were to get an IUD at age 20 and then remove that IUD at age 40, for instance, then net IUD insertions would be zero, but there would nevertheless be a very strict birth control regime in place. If, 20 years later, only half of the next cohort of 20 year old women were to get IUDs, while the entirety of the original, now-40 cohort got theirs removed, then "net IUDs installed" would be negative... and yet, we're talking about a situation in which half of all young women are prevented from having children! The issue with the IUD's is that one of the common claims by women is that they are tricked into or otherwise forced to get an IUD, so this kind of extreme overrepresentation of IUD's in a province that doesn't have that many people lends credence to there being a sterilization program and backs up their claims. The kind of obfuscation done by Chinadaily here is exactly the kind of bullshit the US pulls when trying to trick the world about our abuses, and seeing China do it in response to a serious accusation doesn't just make me suspicious, it makes me think the claim of genocide is not just more probable than not, but is actually likely. Importantly, it shows that even if Zenz is a motivated researcher, his claims can't be wholly dismissed. I understand why people are wary of him and things source from him, but skepticism doesn't equate to outright dismissal. If someone keeps crying wolf, we still need to check even if it's incredibly annoying because the consequences of not doing so are disastrous.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:55
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the moral is never tell the same lie twice, god its like you people dont even watch star trek
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Mar 25, 2021 23:55
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comedyblissoption posted:you got the wrong moral message from that aesop's fable the townspeople were right lmao
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Mar 25, 2021 23:56
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OK baizuo posted:Cya all on bread & roses 
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Mar 25, 2021 23:56
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Anyway cultural genocide is genocide hth.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:58
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oxsnard posted:nah, Roth was cool about it and I think the pending action may have to do with Rime I don't understand why people are talking about a pending action. Did a mod say something? If it's what I think you're talking about it's nothing about this thread.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:58
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Dolphin posted:the fable is a just-so story that's intended purpose is to get kids not to lie. in the story both were wrong, the kid shouldn't have lied but the townspeople should have still taken his story seriously and then dangled him over a ledge until he promised not to lie anymore
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Mar 25, 2021 23:58
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I would like to push back a bit against the assertion that China is being accused of "cultural genocide" China is being accused of "cultural genocide" on SA and other left of center venues - it's being accused of that in addition to literally butchering, disappearing, and burying Uyghurs in mass graves everywhere else, including mainstream western news outlets. "China is slaughtering Uyghurs by the hundreds of thousands, if not millions" is the claim being put forth by Zenz and those who cite him. That is where the contrived response to Xinjiang is coming from - a bombastic story that likens Xinjiang to the Holocaust, and by association Xinjiang genocide skeptics to Holocaust deniers. I feel it's irresponsible to paint this as the west asking China to calm tf down with their bullying Uyghurs into learning Mandarin - the west is literally likening China to Nazi Germany.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:59
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Deified Data posted:I would like to push back a bit against the assertion that China is being accused of "cultural genocide"
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Mar 26, 2021 00:00
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OK baizuo posted:Cya all on bread & roses I'm told that bread & roses summarily banned a very informative Chinese poster for having the wrong opinion on Xinjiang. Admiral Ray posted:The issue with the IUD's is that one of the common claims by women is that they are tricked into or otherwise forced to get an IUD, so this kind of extreme overrepresentation of IUD's in a province that doesn't have that many people lends credence to there being a sterilization program and backs up their claims. I don't believe that China Daily is engaged in obfuscation there because their error is just too easy to point out. Zenz may think he has a mission from god, but he isn't flatly incompetent; he's not going to literally punch numbers wrong into his calculator or something. I think they were excited to catch an unusually egregious error and failed to look a gift horse in the mouth. Anyway, even if they are deliberately misrepresenting that one claim of Zenz's, and even if we're willing to disregard Zenz's other bullshit, is CD also lying that installations have either held steady or gone down in recent years?
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Mar 26, 2021 00:00
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read posts on reddit (dont read reddit) and the uhh “discourse” on china is quite something
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Mar 26, 2021 00:01
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THS posted:read posts on reddit (dont read reddit) and the uhh “discourse” on china is quite something Seems like the usual blood lust and war mongering to me.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:03
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Ferrinus posted:I'm told that bread & roses summarily banned a very informative Chinese poster for having the wrong opinion on Xinjiang. yeah lol its basically a white supremacist forum that drives away any minority voices or anyone who doesnt follow anarcho-lib-statedepartmentalist thought
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Mar 26, 2021 00:03
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THS posted:read posts on reddit (dont read reddit) and the uhh “discourse” on china is quite something
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Mar 26, 2021 00:03
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My post that everybody is quoting was from when Roth said they had pending action awaiting Admin approval. The action in fact turned out to be that the thread is fine evidently.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:03
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