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gradenko_2000 posted:It's not about whether "cultural genocide" is or isn't a thing
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Mar 26, 2021 00:52
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's not about whether "cultural genocide" is or isn't a thing This is why it might be helpful to just start explicitly saying "cultural genocide" from now on, to keep people from flipping out, thinking you're getting your information from zenz or whatever memes they post on Parler these days.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:53
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Herstory Begins Now posted:bunches of innocent people getting swept up merely for having some kind of suspected association to someone assumed to be guilty is definitionally collective punishment though oh my bad i thought you were referring to the claims of indiscriminately rounding up all uighurs for the sins of a few
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Mar 26, 2021 00:53
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Deified Data posted:The reason I brought that up is the two definitions can't be decoupled. The reason we're talking about Xinjiang right now is because this is a thread dedicated to deciding whether posters who disagree with western narratives on Xinjiang are essentially Nazis or not. We would not be discussing it if all China was being accused of was cultural chauvinism. We wouldn't be discussing it if we were just trying to decide if their treatment of Uyghurs was problematic or not. The accusation can't be "just" one of those, it's coupled with the dominant narrative, that China is physically exterminating a minority population. We both know that to concede on one is to concede to the other, and the narrative was designed that way intentionally. The greater population has no desire to apply the same nuance to this issue that we do, they want a verdict - guilty or innocent - and the entire western world is telling them China is guilty. Yeah, I started typing up something like this, but that is much more succinct than my version would have been. The emotional content of the genocide claim is absolutely smoke stacks and Auschwitz. More importantly, in popular discourse it is also something you have TO DO SOMETHING about. F Stop Fitzgerald posted:collective punishment isnt whats happening, its more like they are using even the most tenuous ties to potential terrorists to try to stop more people getting radicalized. obviously this is going to lead to numbers of innocent people getting swept up, having their lifes ruined, who knows what else. Eh, seems absolutely fair to call it collective punishment to flood a region with police to check if your praying wrong. Like in the absolute best case you'll still get a lot skulls cracked by police batons.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:53
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Throatwarbler posted:Hey guys as a former resident of the XUAR and one with close family ties to the region, I just want to point out that there are no restrictions on travel or tourism to any area in Xinjiang. All the arguments here about whether this or that mosque was demolished or whether this or that building is this or that seem very dumb to me because someone could just...walk over there and check it out? It's like people in China who have never read a thing about America having some drawn out debate over the American genocide in Baltimore, MD based on images from Google Earth, because Baltimore, MD is a black hole of information?
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Mar 26, 2021 00:56
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Throatwarbler posted:Hey guys as a former resident of the XUAR and one with close family ties to the region, I just want to point out that there are no restrictions on travel or tourism to any area in Xinjiang. All the arguments here about whether this or that mosque was demolished or whether this or that building is this or that seem very dumb to me because someone could just...walk over there and check it out? It's like people in China who have never read a thing about America having some drawn out debate over the American genocide in Baltimore, MD based on images from Google Earth, because Baltimore, MD is a black hole of information? Too far, I can't afford it.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:57
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Deified Data posted:The reason I brought that up is the two definitions can't be decoupled. The reason we're talking about Xinjiang right now is because this is a thread dedicated to deciding whether posters who disagree with western narratives on Xinjiang are essentially Nazis or not. We would not be discussing it if all China was being accused of was cultural chauvinism. We wouldn't be discussing it if we were just trying to decide if their treatment of Uyghurs was problematic or not. The accusation can't be "just" one of those, it's coupled with the dominant narrative, that China is physically exterminating a minority population. We both know that to concede on one is to concede to the other, and the narrative was designed that way intentionally. This is not true. There's a strong thread consensus that there's clearly cultural genocide going on, but no physical extermination.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:58
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Dustcat posted:This is not true. There's a strong thread consensus that there's clearly cultural genocide going on, but no physical extermination. this is not my experience with nearly any discussion outside of cspam. you are assuming nuance in the popular discourse. there is little to none
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Mar 26, 2021 00:59
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Dustcat posted:How else would one read this though: Fine, I guess it could be some projection on my part since I live in Canada. Here cultural genocide is a cudgel to use on your enemies, to accuse them of racism and bigotry. It's entirely performative and the first nations are still oppressed by settlers and nobody really cares.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:00
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NGL I was planning on going to Urumqi back in 2019 because the flights were cheap and China Daily made the place look amazing in the winter Then Covid happened
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Mar 26, 2021 01:00
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's not about whether "cultural genocide" is or isn't a thing there are two aspects being talked about in this thread as far as I can tell, 1) what is the baseline way to talk about the large-scale system of detention of uighurs that is (pretty much unanimously agreed afaict?) to be happening in China and what terms are appropriate to use referring to that. and 2) which of the more extreme claims can be substantiated or not I'm posting about #1
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Mar 26, 2021 01:01
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how do y'all feel about tiananmen square, forgivable oopsie by a younger ccp or state department fabrication? as i recall the ccp said the protestors were terrorists
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Mar 26, 2021 01:02
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THS posted:this is not my experience with nearly any discussion outside of cspam. you are assuming nuance in the popular discourse. there is little to none Yes but this is a cspam thread discussing moderation in cspam. Have a little faith in your fellow posters, please.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:02
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Throatwarbler posted:Hey guys as a former resident of the XUAR and one with close family ties to the region, I just want to point out that there are no restrictions on travel or tourism to any area in Xinjiang. All the arguments here about whether this or that mosque was demolished or whether this or that building is this or that seem very dumb to me because someone could just...walk over there and check it out? It's like people in China who have never read a thing about America having some drawn out debate over the American genocide in Baltimore, MD based on images from Google Earth, because Baltimore, MD is a black hole of information? Thanks for bringing this up again, I remember someone earlier on mentioned that journalists weren't allowed in the region and I completely forgot to respond. There have been journalists that have gone to the region and reported back. Carl zha was one of these people and was interviewed by Mark Ames and John Dolan about it. They also had another guest on another episode talking about the same thing but their name escapes me at this time. https://podcastaddict.com/episode/77636485
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Mar 26, 2021 01:03
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:It still seems to me like the defenses boil down to "Well the US is doing/has done worse", "it's not actual genocide, just cultural genocide", and "You're only paying attention to this because the state department wants you to". I mean I would argue does China require a defense here? That's how I've been treating it - as a case that has to be made. The west, as the accusers, are attempting to prove that China has exterminated millions of Uyghurs and is failing to do that. I can't speak for other skeptics (is that even the right word?) but I at least am not moving goalposts on my "defense" of China, rather it's the accusers who are moving the goalposts as their central accusation gets shakier and shakier. Genocide becomes cultural genocide becomes an unnamed "atrocity", but if you can prove at least one of these you may as well have proven them all in the public discourse. The west is telling us what they're trying to prove here, we should take them at their world. They do not require advocates to make this case, or they wouldn't if they had the evidence they claim to have.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:03
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Dustcat posted:Yes but this is a cspam thread discussing moderation in cspam. Have a little faith in your fellow posters, please. i feel like discussing the media narrative, the language used, and the “manufacturing consent” occurring within our culture and social media. is that a problem? it seems like it falls under the topic of the thread
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Mar 26, 2021 01:05
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Dolphin posted:i do think china is missing a massive opportunity to point out our black prison population Do you read much Chinese state media? Because they're not missing that opportunity.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:06
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:It still seems to me like the defenses boil down to "Well the US is doing/has done worse", "it's not actual genocide, just cultural genocide", and "You're only paying attention to this because the state department wants you to". conflating criticisms of the reporting with defenses of the thing being reported on isn't really helpful the reason those things keep getting brought up is 1 and 3) lots of the posters are american, and have a vested interest in the hypocrisy of their elected officials, especially if that hypocrisy serves to build a case for a second cold war 2) because actually trying to dig out what is real and what is propaganda is pretty important to people!! this thread isn't prescriptive at all, and I think lots of people are learning more about the situation in china than you could learn anywhere else on the forum
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Mar 26, 2021 01:06
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thotsky posted:Do you read much Chinese state media? Because they're not missing that opportunity.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:07
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Dolphin posted:how do y'all feel about tiananmen square, forgivable oopsie by a younger ccp or state department fabrication? ugh please don't
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Mar 26, 2021 01:07
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Dustcat posted:This is not true. There's a strong thread consensus that there's clearly cultural genocide going on, but no physical extermination. I would wager "I don't know wtf is going on in Xinjiang" is probably the thread consensus
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Mar 26, 2021 01:07
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Dolphin posted:how do y'all feel about tiananmen square, forgivable oopsie by a younger ccp or state department fabrication? what is even the debate/argument about tianamen square that that one poster keeps keeping getting probated about? that nothing happened in the square and everyone had a very nice day?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:09
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Dolphin posted:how do y'all feel about tiananmen square, forgivable oopsie by a younger ccp or state department fabrication? what does this have to do with the current topic I don't think anyone's denying that happened, if that's what you're implying
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Mar 26, 2021 01:09
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THS posted:i feel like discussing the media narrative, the language used, and the “manufacturing consent” occurring within our culture and social media. is that a problem? it seems like it falls under the topic of the thread Certainly not, but just like I have decided to spell out "cultural genocide" from now on when that's what I mean, I think everyone should spell out "physical genocide" when they mean things like death camps, to avoid confusing the issue. e: I hope that doesn't come out as flippant because it's both a core issue that's causing this to be such a heated issue, and a convenient conflation point for propagandists on both sides.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:09
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Deified Data posted:I would wager "I don't know wtf is going on in Xinjiang" is probably the thread consensus yeah thread consensus seems to largely be "idk what the gently caress is going on, and i don't trust people like zenz and the US state department to inform me in a way that doesn't end with baying for chinese blood"
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Mar 26, 2021 01:11
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Raskolnikov38 posted:what is even the debate/argument about tianamen square that that one poster keeps keeping getting probated about? that nothing happened in the square and everyone had a very nice day? according to the Reuters correspondent who was there at the time there was in fact no massacre in tianenman square, all the fighting and deaths happened elsewhere around beijing
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Mar 26, 2021 01:11
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Deified Data posted:I would wager "I don't know wtf is going on in Xinjiang" is probably the thread consensus besides the cia's dolphin mascot, this about sums it up
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Mar 26, 2021 01:11
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Flavius Aetass posted:ugh please don't
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Mar 26, 2021 01:12
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:It still seems to me like the defenses boil down to "Well the US is doing/has done worse", "it's not actual genocide, just cultural genocide", and "You're only paying attention to this because the state department wants you to". I'm not seeing these as a defense of what China is doing. "the US is worse" is pretty valid when people will point the finger at a foreign country but turn a blind eye to what's happening in their own country (and Yemen). cultural vs actual genocide seems to be an important distinction to make, one is clearly much worse than the other, and cultural genocide is pretty fuckin bad. the state department poo poo is about getting people on your side. when it's convenient to say "oh it's terrible what's happening over there" to stir up some anti-china hate, it comes up. the state department isn't reporting on human rights violations out of a sense of morality or desire to do the right thing. the genocide we are perpetrating in Yemen is currently the most obvious example of that. im with the iraq war flashback posters. how can i just trust the US after that?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:12
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Deified Data posted:I don't know wtf is going on in Xinjiang
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Mar 26, 2021 01:12
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Varinn posted:conflating criticisms of the reporting with defenses of the thing being reported on isn't really helpful Eh, those are fair points. I don't know whether it's fundamentally because I am american or just a I get that that is a point of contention among leftists of various disciplines and maybe that's not the point here but I feel like maybe underneath everything else this is an undercurrent to the argument that the assimilation is in some way absolutely necessary and unavoidable or else something... communism will not be able to flourish?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:13
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Throatwarbler posted:Hey guys as a former resident of the XUAR and one with close family ties to the region, I just want to point out that there are no restrictions on travel or tourism to any area in Xinjiang. All the arguments here about whether this or that mosque was demolished or whether this or that building is this or that seem very dumb to me because someone could just...walk over there and check it out? It's like people in China who have never read a thing about America having some drawn out debate over the American genocide in Baltimore, MD based on images from Google Earth, because Baltimore, MD is a black hole of information?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:13
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Yinlock posted:what does this have to do with the current topic yeah it's off topic and irrelevant to this discussion Though, hilariously there's been a long standing feud between two big chinese subreddits and one of them is clearly modded by the CCP. They delete or ban anyone who ever talks about it and a few of the mods are tienammen square deniers and post in the non CCP reddit about it
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Mar 26, 2021 01:14
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Yinlock posted:what does this have to do with the current topic
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Mar 26, 2021 01:15
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Dolphin posted:how do y'all feel about tiananmen square, forgivable oopsie by a younger ccp or state department fabrication? see where do you find yourself in THIS particular spectrum Do you think that the CCP initiated Han genocide and ran over the dude standing in front of the tank or do you think nothing happen? I think you are closer to one of these extremes than any one else in this thread is to the other
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Mar 26, 2021 01:16
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:It still seems to me like the defenses boil down to "Well the US is doing/has done worse", "it's not actual genocide, just cultural genocide", and "You're only paying attention to this because the state department wants you to". Does "the US state department is actively sponsoring a disinformation campaign about this atrocity in service of creating a pretext for military action against China" count as genocide denial to you?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:17
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:according to the Reuters correspondent who was there at the time there was in fact no massacre in tianenman square, all the fighting and deaths happened elsewhere around beijing so quibbling about the location of corpses? sounds like a wonderful use of time
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Mar 26, 2021 01:17
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Cao Ni Ma posted:see where do you find yourself in THIS particular spectrum
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Mar 26, 2021 01:18
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so quibbling about the location of corpses? sounds like a wonderful use of time well also the number of them, and how they're split between protesters and PLA
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Mar 26, 2021 01:19
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Dolphin posted:well we were just talking about the boy who cried wolf, i was interested in its sister fable, "the boy who smashed countless children with tanks" this implies that the boy who cried wolf, the cia, is also the boy who smashed children with tanks in which case: accurate
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Mar 26, 2021 01:19
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