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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Eh, those are fair points. I don't know whether it's fundamentally because I am american or just a Sure, but the point you're making here is one you see everywhere this comes up: that somehow, talking about the specifics is the same as denying it exists at all. its always presented like "well how can we have this discussion if we can agree it's happening" except you don't actually want to have the discussion, the 'base point' people are asked to agree to is the start and end of the conversation, and any attempts to ask for more information is suspect. if I told you that the US border camps were just shooting every person they detain in the head, you'd rightfully say "no, theyre bad, but they arent doing that, come on", right?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:20
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Deified Data posted:I would wager "I don't know wtf is going on in Xinjiang" is probably the thread consensus I'm talking about posts I'm reading from both sides that seem to be informed on the issue.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:22
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Eh, those are fair points. I don't know whether it's fundamentally because I am american or just a the contention is how the gradations are exploited to gear the population for the mindset of China = Nazi Germany when the population having their brains massaged over this are a population actually living under the empire most directly comparable to the nazis people are concerned about an atmosphere that makes the US more conducive to cold war. not that the US needs absolute support, they didn’t with iraq. but they do need a certain level of buy-in and bloodlust from the public. inflating the reality of xinjiang among the less media savvy is how to do it. i see the effects on other platforms where the level of discourse is worse and more closer to the average person who doesn’t pay as much attention to this stuff as we do. think about studies of how many people read past the headlines of a news story and imagine how well talking about china goes now
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Mar 26, 2021 01:22
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THS posted:the contention is how the gradations are exploited to gear the population for the mindset of China = Nazi Germany when the population having their brains massaged over this are a population actually living under the empire most directly comparable to the nazis 1. Nobody on cspam is going to think china = nazi germany. You're arguing in the wrong forum if that's your concern. 2. China manufactures most of everything US consumers buy, so there's clearly not going to be a cold war in at least the next decade. 3. Trying to use the threat of a cold war between the United States and China, started by the United States, as a cudgel to shut down discussion of the cultural genocide in Xinjiang is just loving lol.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:27
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Varinn posted:Sure, but the point you're making here is one you see everywhere this comes up: that somehow, talking about the specifics is the same as denying it exists at all. THS posted:the contention is how the gradations are exploited to gear the population for the mindset of China = Nazi Germany when the population having their brains massaged over this are a population actually living under the empire most directly comparable to the nazis These are fair points I had not personally considered in that... the imperialist mindset of the US is a very small factor into my assessment of morality. The military is gonna get its blood, justified or not. I do understand the concern in being specific for the greater discourse to not provide free cover for state actions though. I just think about it the same way I would think about the US border situation though. Use whatever terminology you want to play it up or talk it down but fundamentally the situation is a horrific violation of human rights. Say "they're not cages, they're actually nice hotel rooms and they get free meals they just can't leave" or "border patrol agents are executing people on the spot" and I think.. the distance between those two things in the scope of history and what it means to violate human autonomy cannot begin to diminish the rightful condemnation a future society should be looking back on these events with. Unless the fascists win.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:28
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I think the best way for Westerners to oppose coercive measures by the CCP in Xinjiang is to oppose US imperialism in the Middle East. The less hellish the US is making that part of the world, the less pretext the Chinese state has to police minority cultures in the name of preventing terrorism, and more sway those forces in the party that oppose or at least want to ramp down what's going on in Xinjiang will have. Unfortunately, it is very hard to stop the US from just sending its army wherever it wants.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:28
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Dustcat posted:1. Nobody on cspam is going to think china = nazi germany. You're arguing in the wrong forum if that's your concern. why cant you get over that im not just talking about cspam but am discussing wider perceptions in society. you seem to have real difficulty with this no matter how many ways i explain it to you
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Mar 26, 2021 01:28
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Dustcat posted:2. China manufactures most of everything US consumers buy, so there's clearly not going to be a cold war in at least the next decade. This is a very short-sighted belief
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Mar 26, 2021 01:29
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THS posted:why cant you get over that im not just talking about cspam but am discussing wider perceptions in society. you seem to have real difficulty with this no matter how many ways i explain it to you Because this thread is about cspam moderation. You keep posting long rambling screeds that don't apply to the topic at hand.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:30
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Deified Data posted:This is a very short-sighted belief What's your view, do you think China will cut off supplies to the US in the near future? Not really within the topic of the thread. Also please go post in the doomsday ec thread, you'll freak those guys out 
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Mar 26, 2021 01:32
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Dustcat posted:2. China manufactures most of everything US consumers buy, so there's clearly not going to be a cold war in at least the next decade. https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/03/10/president-bidens-second-big-bill-may-be-china-package-pushed-by-top-senate-democrat/ quote:As the White House continues to work on another major spending bill to follow the $1.9 trillion stimulus, momentum is beginning to gather for what might become Congress’s second big piece of legislation in the Biden era: a bill aimed at countering China’s economic influence. weird........wonder why this has bipartisan support......
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Mar 26, 2021 01:32
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Varinn posted:Sure, but the point you're making here is one you see everywhere this comes up: that somehow, talking about the specifics is the same as denying it exists at all. I know this isn't the point of the thread but you realize this is exactly what people do regarding biden's handling of immigration issues/detainment of immigrants.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:32
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Deified Data posted:This is a very short-sighted belief Particularly so after WW1, since it was famously given as a reason as to why millions would not be shot, gassed, blown up and maimed.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:33
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I mean that's not even counting disease and deliberate starvation, the civilian death toll was also horrific.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:35
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we traded with the soviets during the cold war. granted it wasn't a huge amount but trade doesn't automatically mean no cold war
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Mar 26, 2021 01:35
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Varinn posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/03/10/president-bidens-second-big-bill-may-be-china-package-pushed-by-top-senate-democrat/ It's a good idea, manufacturing should happen locally, and offshoring basic manufacturing is how you get fragile kleptocracies like the United States.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:36
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Dustcat posted:Because this thread is about cspam moderation. You keep posting long rambling screeds that don't apply to the topic at hand. THS posted:i feel like discussing the media narrative, the language used, and the “manufacturing consent” occurring within our culture and social media. is that a problem? it seems like it falls under the topic of the thread Dustcat posted:Certainly not, but just like I have decided to spell out "cultural genocide" from now on when that's what I mean, I think everyone should spell out "physical genocide" when they mean things like death camps, to avoid confusing the issue. i am going to continue discussing how people interpret narratives around Xinjiang, public perceptions, media, media consumers, different platforms, etc, you seem to have the weirdest blinders and narrow focus, and contradict yourself or otherwise willfully miss points
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Mar 26, 2021 01:36
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Flying-PCP posted:I know this isn't the point of the thread but you realize this is exactly what people do regarding biden's handling of immigration issues/detainment of immigrants. most of the anger I see about that, and that i've felt about that personally, has to do with the fact that the push for Being Very Specific changed when the president did, despite the camps not changing at all id have no problem saying those camps arent like, meat grinder extermination camps yet, and I don't think thats like a unique view lol. outside of anyone who isnt still taintrunner-brained
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Mar 26, 2021 01:37
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THS posted:why cant you get over that im not just talking about cspam but am discussing wider perceptions in society. you seem to have real difficulty with this no matter how many ways i explain it to you I think some of the breakdown in communication is that more casual C-SPAM posters (trump thread, etc) sometimes feel like they are being talked to as if they are Rachel Maddow fans by posters in more explicitly political threads
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Mar 26, 2021 01:38
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Dustcat posted:It's a good idea, manufacturing should happen locally, and offshoring basic manufacturing is how you get fragile kleptocracies like the United States. Yes, but increasingly aggressive foreign policy towards China, a reliance on poo poo like Zenz to push a specific point, combined with support to lessen our reliance on goods from china do you think these things might all be related, when they're coming from the same people. do you think this sounds like the starting stages of a cold war
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Mar 26, 2021 01:39
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THS posted:i am going to continue discussing how people interpret narratives around Xinjiang, public perceptions, media, media consumers, different platforms, etc, Well, to help me not miss points, please type out "cultural genocide" and "physical genocide" whenever you talk about genocide, so we'll know whether you're denouncing CSPAM or the zenz crowd. The latter doesn't post here.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:40
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Dustcat posted:Well, to help me not miss points, please type out "cultural genocide" and "physical genocide" whenever you talk about genocide, so we'll know whether you're denouncing CSPAM or the zenz crowd. The latter doesn't post here. you somehow still dont understand what im saying. its amazing. im not addressing anything close to this right now
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Mar 26, 2021 01:40
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if the us wanted to go to war with China we would have actually just invented poo poo about covid, that was the best opportunity not mistreatment of muslims
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Mar 26, 2021 01:40
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Varinn posted:Yes, but increasingly aggressive foreign policy towards China, a reliance on poo poo like Zenz to push a specific point, combined with support to lessen our reliance on goods from china I don't loving know, but what the hell does that have to do with the fact that there's cultural genocide going on in xinjiang though
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Mar 26, 2021 01:41
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Dolphin posted:if the us wanted to go to war with China we would have actually just invented poo poo about covid, that was the best opportunity not mistreatment of muslims its a gradual boil
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Mar 26, 2021 01:41
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Dustcat posted:I don't loving know, but what the hell does that have to do with the fact that there's cultural genocide going on in xinjiang though i thought this thread was only about moderation
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Mar 26, 2021 01:42
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Dustcat posted:I don't loving know, but what the hell does that have to do with the fact that there's cultural genocide going on in xinjiang though you don't think the state would like to direct your outrage where it is appropriate for them?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:42
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THS posted:i thought this thread was only about moderation I would like to issue a challenge somebody not THS tell me what the gently caress THS is talking about if it makes sense that i'm missing, flavius please give me a week off
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Mar 26, 2021 01:43
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Republicans like Rubio and Conryn and a bunch of democrats are all very deeply concerned about China's "monopoly" on rare-earth minerals and is going to continue juicing coups in South America for american-friendly fascists to hand over all the goods for pennies on the dollar because "we have to compete with China!" US is probably going to attempt some fuckery over Taiwan as well but expect a lot more coups and "interventions" in south america, bipartisanly
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Mar 26, 2021 01:44
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Varinn posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/03/10/president-bidens-second-big-bill-may-be-china-package-pushed-by-top-senate-democrat/ it had bipartisan support 5-6 years ago until trump's racism killed it well before any discussion of xinjiang or even hang kong occurred
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Mar 26, 2021 01:45
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THS posted:its a gradual boil yeah, the buildup to iraq war 2 began in arguably 1994 and undeniably by 1998
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Mar 26, 2021 01:46
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Dustcat posted:I don't loving know, but what the hell does that have to do with the fact that there's cultural genocide going on in xinjiang though Because the foreign policy think tanks publishing and funding most of the 'studies' and 'reports' that then get reported on by american sources do that with intent. do you think the Victims of Communism Foundation just publishes stuff for kicks or do you think they want people to believe something specific?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:47
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Dustcat posted:Well, to help me not miss points, please type out "cultural genocide" and "physical genocide" whenever you talk about genocide, so we'll know whether you're denouncing CSPAM or the zenz crowd. The latter doesn't post here. people have posted zenz's work in this thread lmao wtf
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Mar 26, 2021 01:49
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Varinn posted:people have posted zenz's work in this thread lmao wtf All the more reason for you to specify whether you mean no "cultural genocide" is taking place vs no "physical genocide" is taking place.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:50
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Raskolnikov38 posted:yeah, the buildup to iraq war 2 began in arguably 1994 and undeniably by 1998
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Mar 26, 2021 01:50
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iraq war 2 was 10 years of the american media going "oh does saddam have chemicals or doesn't he. its so very suspicious he doesn't let in the weapons inspectors to confirm they dont exist. this means he must have them." then clinton signs the iraq liberation act in '98 saying saddam is a bad person and he's got to go. this builds up until you get "how much will you bomb iraq (little or lots)" as a recurring debate question between bush and gore in 2000 and then bush wins and the rest is hellworld
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Mar 26, 2021 01:52
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Varinn posted:Because the foreign policy think tanks publishing and funding most of the 'studies' and 'reports' that then get reported on by american sources do that with intent/. So is the argument that any allegations of mistreatment are State Department fabrications or that there is no forcible re-education or what I am at a loss now because I thought the consensus, regardless of state propaganda, was that China was at the very least forcibly assimilating a group of people Because if the argument is anything other than "the state department is making everything up" then I would argue the ball is still in China's court to stop whatever it is that is being done in the same way the rest of the world should rightfully poo poo on the US until we unfuck our border and our childhood poverty and homelessness and police violence
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Mar 26, 2021 01:52
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Ferrinus posted:I don't believe that China Daily is engaged in obfuscation there because their error is just too easy to point out. Zenz may think he has a mission from god, but he isn't flatly incompetent; he's not going to literally punch numbers wrong into his calculator or something. I think they were excited to catch an unusually egregious error and failed to look a gift horse in the mouth. I would agree, but I've seen the same rebuttal done again and again (not here, but elsewhere). This is one of the few things that is easily checked because the statistics Zenz used aren't free to the public (which, imo, makes his claims weaker since he could have at least provided a loving table). If that Chinadaily article didn't post the actual scanned page from the Health and Hygiene Statistics Yearbook I never would have even been able to check the math. quote:Another evidence also confirms that Zenz's data was totally fabricated. The number of new surgeries of IUD placements in Xinjiang did not show obvious fluctuations from 2015 to 2018,and actually, the number of new surgeries of Xinjiang in 2018 decreased, compared with 2015(See the table "Family planning operations in various regions" Selected from China Health and Family Planning Statistical Yearbook 2016 and China Health Statistics Yearbook 2019.). I'm not sure what this is a response to. We know Zenz's claim about the 80% net IUD thing isn't fabricated, and the article addresses that separately, so I think this is in response to this claim of Zenz's: quote:Between 2015 and 2018, Xinjiang placed 7.8 times more net added IUDs per capita than the national average. Which is a confusing as hell sentence, but after reading it a few times I think he means the cumulative net added per capita. I don't know why he uses per capita rather than just sticking with his initial method, even if that method is strange as well. In any case, I can't independently verify his specific numbers here since I don't have access to the previous years statistics, but I did eyeball the values off this figure:  and the overall ratio is (1400 + 800 + 900 + 1000) / (400 + 50 + 50 + 25) = 4100/525 = 7.81. Again though, I have no loving idea where the actual values on this plot came from and I honestly don't know what units are being used. If the Y axis is supposed to be per 100k or per 10k, fine, but otherwise this poo poo doesn't make any sense. Even then, per what capita? In Xinjiang? In Uyghur women? In all women? From what he shows, it does look like the rate of net IUD's added is stable (the trend per capita over the last decade fluctuates around 1000), while the rate of net IUD's added drops nationally. Since I don't have the raw data over this period, I can't check to see if this is simply due to a higher rate of removal nationally (which we may expect, especially since the 1 child policy was rescinded for Han families), but considering that the Uyghur population went from ~54% of the population to ~60% over the same period, it doesn't immediately make sense for that rate to remain the same in the province. Overall, that claim and the rebuttal are unconvincing either way since I can't get at the actual data for it.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:53
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Raskolnikov38 posted:iraq war 2 was 10 years of the american media going "oh does saddam have chemicals or doesn't he. its so very suspicious he doesn't let in the weapons inspectors to confirm they dont exist. this means he must have them." then clinton signs the iraq liberation act in '98 saying saddam is a bad person and he's got to go. this builds up until you get "how much will you bomb iraq (little or lots)" as a recurring debate question between bush and gore in 2000 and then bush wins and the rest is hellworld
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Mar 26, 2021 01:54
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Dolphin posted:that's literally the buildup to any war at all over "concerns" but it doesn't match the political climate or economics or anything at all otherwise THS's point, to me at least, is that we're in the bombarding american public with just asking question stage
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Mar 26, 2021 01:56
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