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Ferrinus posted:He's often not wrong, just disingenuous and making ultimately meaningless albeit sensationalist claims; see the "net IUD insertions" discussion we had a few pages ago for an example.
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Mar 26, 2021 17:03
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Dolphin posted:I'm getting more into direct sources now so you'll have to bear with me on that because it's time consuming as all hell. But I think we all understand the nature of mainstream media, they're citing him because it makes the article more interesting to viewers which in turn gets more views and shares which gives more advertising money, as capitalism goes. the media is not just sensationalist, it is often a stenographer and enthusiastic ally for the state, especially in matters of foreign policy
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Mar 26, 2021 17:03
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THS posted:the media is not just sensationalist, it is often a stenographer and enthusiastic ally for the state, especially in matters of foreign policy
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Mar 26, 2021 17:05
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pointing out that mainstream media reporting on China is essentially worthless doesn't really further the goal of "actually people should listen to these reports on China and their genociding"
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Mar 26, 2021 17:05
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Dolphin posted:Sure. But the US media is not the only media reporting on this. the us is also not the only state with a vested interest in hurting china
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Mar 26, 2021 17:06
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Serf posted:like why are they citing him at all given his clear bias and, frankly, poor mental state? the point is that they don't mention his clear bias and his mental state because they know that that would be instantly disqualifying it's like with Nathan Ruser: you go to his profile and it says he works for the "ASPI ICPC": then you go to ASPI's profile and it says they're "an independent, non-partisan think tank on Australia's defence and strategic policy" independent and non-partisan! That means if they show you satellite imagery of a building in Xinjiang and claim that it's a concentration camp, that means they don't have a special interest towards China, because they're independent and non-partisan, right? it's basic loving media literacy that if the news cites an "expert" or a "think tank" that you highlight the name, right-click, select the option to google it, and find out who's cutting the checks because nobody ever admits it right in the article because they want you to think the information is just pure and free-floating to be plucked out of the airwaves like manna from the God of Neutrality and frankly it's insulting that this is being portrayed as somehow an "ad hominem"
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Mar 26, 2021 17:06
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gradenko_2000 posted:the point is that they don't mention his clear bias and his mental state because they know that that would be instantly disqualifying the aspi states clearly that they get money from the department of defence! australia has a clear interest in curtailing china's growth, so why should i trust information provided by what is essentially an arm of their pr department? so much of this poo poo is laundered through these supposedly non-partisan groups that you can't trust any of it
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Mar 26, 2021 17:08
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Serf posted:the us is also not the only state with a vested interest in hurting china
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Mar 26, 2021 17:09
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Dolphin posted:China is not doing a genocide because the US is publishing it and has a vested interest in not hurting China so China is not doing a genocide is a syllogism. You need an extra step in there. again, more bad faith posting that dodges around the point being made lol
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Mar 26, 2021 17:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:and frankly it's insulting that this is being portrayed as somehow an "ad hominem"
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Mar 26, 2021 17:12
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Cerebral Bore posted:it's 1000% obvious that dolphin is a bad faith actor and if you mods are still reading the discourse goes from sensible to lovely precisely because poo poo like this is tolerated I have to agree, considering dolphin's "ha i didn't even read the sources" defense dolphin, please wrap up your argument here or admit that you're just throwing poo poo against the wall to see what sticks
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Mar 26, 2021 17:13
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:could you do me a favour and either directly label the columns you're talking about or be more clear? I can't read any variety of Chinese and I'm becoming v confused by your 'according to second column of additions and the fourth one of removals' its interesting how apparently you need me to clarify the exact parts of the chart im referring to despite a progenocide labeling poster using literally the exact same terms and the exact same math to arrive at the exact opposite conclusion because they decided to give zenz the benefit of the doubt in regards to net iud placement actually being a meaningful measurement why its almost as if youre simply treating any claims with political undertones youre inclined to agree with as being inherently reliable and only bothering to interrogate methodology if its being used to make claims with political undertones youre not inclined to agree with
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Mar 26, 2021 17:14
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Dolphin posted:It is. Now obviously informal logic doesn't always have to be the rubric we follow but it's good to keep in mind when your only argument is that you don't like the sources. I don't like Adrian Zenz as a source because he slept with my mom, I don't like Adrian Zenz as a source because he lies about what he says!
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Mar 26, 2021 17:14
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that Adrian Zenz is a bad hominem
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Mar 26, 2021 17:16
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Dolphin posted:It is. Now obviously informal logic doesn't always have to be the rubric we follow but it's good to keep in mind when your only argument is that you don't like the sources. this is one hell of a disingenuous way to refer to people not trusting either an unhinged lunatic or the state media apparatus that dragged us into a war that has killed a million people and destabilized an entire region of the world for decades. and that's just in my lifetime!
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Mar 26, 2021 17:16
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Dolphin posted:I'm getting more into direct sources now so you'll have to bear with me on that because it's time consuming as all hell. But I think we all understand the nature of mainstream media, they're citing him because it makes the article more interesting to viewers which in turn gets more views and shares which gives more advertising money, as capitalism goes. you argue so poorly that all you have accomplished is successfully showing everyone that you have nothing to stand on and your unhinged rambling meanders from topic to topic as you demonstrate you have no knowledge of whatever you are talking about. your arguments are so bad that you're only convincing me more and more of the US government's interest in having me believe china is exterminating muslims.
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Mar 26, 2021 17:17
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so has anyone been able to quantify this xinjiang forced labor thing i ask because that talking points been making a big comeback but last time i tried to investigate the sourcing all i could find was an australian paper whose main bit of evidence was i poo poo you not a deleted personal ad where someone said they were looking to sell ughyur labor but did not explicitly say that the ughyurs themselves were also expecting to be paid
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Mar 26, 2021 17:18
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:Okay. We agree that the US manufactured a reason to invade Iraq. At that time, Iraq had 26 million people, no nukes, and no strong economic ties to the US. In what world is the exact same playbook used to invade a nuclear-armed nation with 1.4 billion people that manufactures most of your consumer goods and has trillions of dollars of Western companies' assets inside its borders? This is exactly why I'm calling you an apologist, because you dream up this bullshit scenario ('the US is going to invade on the pretext of stopping genocide!') to argue that reports of a real, existing genocide are just like reports of nonexistent WMDs. This end-of-history bullshit is so loving stupid. The entire post-wwii 20th century is characterized as conflicts between two nuclear armed superpowers. Countless proxy wars, millions dead, entire countries left to ruins. And this was during a time when the bloodthirsty American administartions were slightly more competent sociopaths than the unhinged lunatics like Trump and the senile sundowners like Biden (at least reagan didn't start his term completely off the books). Yeah, China is closely intertwined economically with the rest of the world. But they are not any closer intertwined diplomatically or culturally. And American hegemony sees them as an enemy just as much as they did the Soviets. And the americans will absolutely flail to maintain their hegemony, just as they have countless times before - but this time it will be far more destructive.
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Mar 26, 2021 17:19
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And people wonder the trump thread posters are so hated. Lol
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Mar 26, 2021 17:22
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some of them i assume are good people
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Mar 26, 2021 17:24
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Some Guy TT posted:its interesting how apparently you need me to clarify the exact parts of the chart im referring to despite a progenocide labeling poster using literally the exact same terms and the exact same math to arrive at the exact opposite conclusion because they decided to give zenz the benefit of the doubt in regards to net iud placement actually being a meaningful measurement no I was literally just confused by your wording since any way I counted from left to right the 'fourth' column was mostly blank. I was happy with your explanation, don't get yourself worked up
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Mar 26, 2021 17:35
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Some Guy TT posted:so has anyone been able to quantify this xinjiang forced labor thing i ask because that talking points been making a big comeback but last time i tried to investigate the sourcing all i could find was an australian paper whose main bit of evidence was i poo poo you not a deleted personal ad where someone said they were looking to sell ughyur labor but did not explicitly say that the ughyurs themselves were also expecting to be paid It doesn't make sense on its face because prison labor is extremely inefficient and unproductive compared to wage labor, especially wage labor that requires some sort of training and resource investment like electrical work or whatever. Wage labor is obviously still coercive - either you fix my wiring, or the wiring of whoever else buys your labor-power, or you don't get to eat! - but there's no chance in hell the Chinese government is looking to enslave rather than train and indoctrinate the rural populations it's drawing into training centers.
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Mar 26, 2021 17:36
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In my humble opinion, genocide... is bad.
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Mar 26, 2021 17:38
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Some Guy TT posted:so has anyone been able to quantify this xinjiang forced labor thing i ask because that talking points been making a big comeback but last time i tried to investigate the sourcing all i could find was an australian paper whose main bit of evidence was i poo poo you not a deleted personal ad where someone said they were looking to sell ughyur labor but did not explicitly say that the ughyurs themselves were also expecting to be paid https://www.citizenpowerforchina.org/report-released-cotton-the-fabric-full-of-lies/
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Mar 26, 2021 17:43
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Ferrinus posted:It doesn't make sense on its face because prison labor is extremely inefficient and unproductive compared to wage labor, especially wage labor that requires some sort of training and resource investment like electrical work or whatever. Wage labor is obviously still coercive - either you fix my wiring, or the wiring of whoever else buys your labor-power, or you don't get to eat! - but there's no chance in hell the Chinese government is looking to enslave rather than train and indoctrinate the rural populations it's drawing into training centers. beep boop persecution and punitive labour are irrational therefore China's perfect government would not do them
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Mar 26, 2021 17:47
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Dolphin posted:These people did a report on it but they're selling it on Amazon so I haven't been able to investigate their specific sources: i just want to make sure here, you know there are prisons in america where the prisoners have to pick cotton right? heres a study about it https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/betr/vol2/iss1/9/
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Mar 26, 2021 17:48
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:i just want to make sure here, you know there are prisons in america where the prisoners have to pick cotton right? heres a study about it https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/betr/vol2/iss1/9/ amazingly, I can believe this is slavery and the thing over in China is slavery at the same time incredible defenses of China here. (1) the US is a murderous fascist empire hellbent on global domination, (2) China does the same stuff as the US so they're fine
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Mar 26, 2021 17:49
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:amazingly, I can believe this is slavery and the thing over in China is slavery at the same time yea that's not really the point here bud. the point is that your outrage is directed solely toward china because the state wants it to be.
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Mar 26, 2021 17:50
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:yea that's not really the point here bud. the point is that your outrage is directed solely toward china because the state wants it to be. my outrage is not directed solely toward china
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Mar 26, 2021 17:51
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:yea that's not really the point here bud. the point is that your outrage is directed solely toward china because the state wants it to be. I thought the point was that china wasn't doing bad things This is an endless circle of "they're not doing it there's no proof" -> "well they may be doing it but america is doing worse" -> "you only care because propaganda" -> "they're not doing it there's no proof"
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Mar 26, 2021 17:51
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:my outrage is not directed solely toward china is there a thread titled c-spam moderation and american prisons? about how america is doing genocide? or nah
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Mar 26, 2021 17:52
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:is there a thread titled c-spam moderation and american prisons? about how america is doing genocide? or nah Are there cspam posters defending american prisons or the border concentration camps as necessary or not as bad as they seem?
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Mar 26, 2021 17:53
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:Okay. We agree that the US manufactured a reason to invade Iraq. At that time, Iraq had 26 million people, no nukes, and no strong economic ties to the US. In what world is the exact same playbook used to invade a nuclear-armed nation with 1.4 billion people that manufactures most of your consumer goods and has trillions of dollars of Western companies' assets inside its borders? This is exactly why I'm calling you an apologist, because you dream up this bullshit scenario ('the US is going to invade on the pretext of stopping genocide!') to argue that reports of a real, existing genocide are just like reports of nonexistent WMDs. Eugene V. Dubstep posted:beep boop persecution and punitive labour are irrational therefore China's perfect government would not do them 
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Mar 26, 2021 17:53
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:I thought the point was that china wasn't doing bad things at no point has anyone said that china is not doing bad things. even ferrinus' wildly optimistic post up there still points out that wage labor is coercive and, i would say, abusive
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Mar 26, 2021 17:53
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Some Guy TT posted:so has anyone been able to quantify this xinjiang forced labor thing i ask because that talking points been making a big comeback but last time i tried to investigate the sourcing all i could find was an australian paper whose main bit of evidence was i poo poo you not a deleted personal ad where someone said they were looking to sell ughyur labor but did not explicitly say that the ughyurs themselves were also expecting to be paid https://jamestown.org/product/coercive-labor-and-forced-displacement-in-xinjiangs-cross-regional-labor-transfer-program/ 
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Mar 26, 2021 17:53
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:is there a thread titled c-spam moderation and american prisons? about how america is doing genocide? or nah
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Mar 26, 2021 17:54
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:I thought the point was that china wasn't doing bad things this has been covered over and over in this thread. nobody thinks this. you are conflating "muslims are not being exterminated" with "actually everything they do is totally fine and i like it"
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Mar 26, 2021 17:54
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:is there a thread titled c-spam moderation and american prisons? about how america is doing genocide? or nah Go to literally any thread in CSPAM lmao
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Mar 26, 2021 17:55
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:this has been covered over and over in this thread. nobody thinks this. you are conflating "muslims are not being exterminated" with "actually everything they do is totally fine and i like it" No I think a lot of people are conflating "I think China is committing crimes against humanity" as "the Chinese government is rounding up muslims and executing them with firing squads" when it's been made pretty clear that no one believes that
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Mar 26, 2021 17:55
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Are there cspam posters defending american prisons or the border concentration camps as necessary or not as bad as they seem? and again your knee jerk reaction is based on nothing, because you boil down "china is probably not exterminating their muslim population" to "actually the genocide is not as bad as it seems"
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Mar 26, 2021 17:56
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