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One thing I wanna address here I think ordinary citizens of one country can criticize heinous poo poo going on in another country without having to explain why they haven't overthrown their own government yet to stop their own government from doing heinous poo poo. I think that's ok and in fact necessary to do.
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Mar 26, 2021 20:53
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Serf posted:is the genocide of the native americans generally recognized as such? genuinely curious, because in school i was taught that the native americans were few in number and just got lightly pushed aside by the settlers, so i reckon if i asked most people whether the native americans were the victims of genocide, they would look at me like i was crazy. to be clear, it very much was a genocide, and may be academically accepted as one, but i've just never encountered that opinion outside of leftist groups. even in my college american history course the line was that the native americans were wiped out by european diseases and any conflicts that american settlers had with them were small and inconsequential. which, even at the time seemed hosed to me california still has 4th graders build models of the spanish death missions
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Mar 26, 2021 20:56
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BougieBitch posted:What will we accept as adequate clarity? At what point are we willing to actually call it genocide? Does this ruling also apply to WWII, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of Native Americans, the genocide of aboriginal people in Australia, or literally any other context or situation? The fact that there's inadequate documentation isn't incidental, but intentional, and any statement about how many people died in any of these other situations is also the result of a lot of guesswork and estimation, but no one denies that they happened in the modern day (with the exception of the Armenian genocide, natch). If you don't establish at what point you are willing to accept that "this is actually bad enough that I don't think we can get away with saying it isn't genocide", then you have created a situation where some number of people will continue to deny that it is happening well past the point where everyone except China is acknowledging it. hindsight goes both ways. You can say the same thing regarding manufacturing consent and the lead up to the many wars and violence inflicted by western nations. How much clarity do you need before you realize the west lies about this poo poo all the time.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:08
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Flying-PCP posted:One thing I wanna address here I think ordinary citizens of one country can criticize heinous poo poo going on in another country without having to explain why they haven't overthrown their own government yet to stop their own government from doing heinous poo poo. I think that's ok and in fact necessary to do. you can do that, but "My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century" gently caress me for having to quote loving chumpsky lol
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Mar 26, 2021 21:16
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Someone already used that quote but chompsky is a hopeless liberal who should stick to linguistic research
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Mar 26, 2021 21:17
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why the gently caress does no one acknowledge the "primarily" part of that quote?
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Mar 26, 2021 21:19
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Someone already used that quote but chompsky is a hopeless liberal who should stick to linguistic research chomsky has some lukewarm takes on domestic politics but he’s fairly unimpeachable in both his media criticism and analysis of US foreign policy atrocities - and that quote is one of his best
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Mar 26, 2021 21:19
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Gringostar posted:why the gently caress does no one acknowledge the "primarily" part of that quote? i guess you could focus on what isn’t the main thrust of his point. chomsky himself i don’t think ever wrote much or anything about atrocities committed by the soviets or anyone else, though, so his own work is consistent with said main thrust of his point
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Mar 26, 2021 21:20
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Someone already used that quote but chompsky is a hopeless liberal who should stick to linguistic research agreed, much like how americans should stick to rectifying the global atrocities of our own country
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Mar 26, 2021 21:22
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THS posted:i guess you could focus on what isn’t the main thrust of his point. chomsky himself i don’t think ever wrote much or anything about atrocities committed by the soviets or anyone else, though, so his own work is consistent with said main thrust of his point yet he still acknowledges them and doesn't try to "yeah but the us has done" at every turn which is the loving point
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Mar 26, 2021 21:24
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THS posted:i guess you could focus on what isn’t the main thrust of his point. chomsky himself i don’t think ever wrote much or anything about atrocities committed by the soviets or anyone else, though, so his own work is consistent with said main thrust of his point He was emphatically not a fan and wrote this whole article on the failures of the soviets https://chomsky.info/1986____/
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Mar 26, 2021 21:26
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well good thing i guess that everyone here agrees china is doing bad stuff in xinjiang
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Mar 26, 2021 21:27
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Gringostar posted:yet he still acknowledges them and doesn't try to "yeah but the us has done" at every turn which is the loving point Its possible he avoided that chiefly by not posting on internet forums, tbf.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:29
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Flying-PCP posted:Its possible he avoided that chiefly by not posting on internet forums, tbf. the internet makes you stupid
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Mar 26, 2021 21:32
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:starting to think a poster who makes xi=winnie the pooh jokes doesnt have the best intentions wrt discussing this this is the typical quality of what I will call the 'pro-genocide' posts itt
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Mar 26, 2021 21:32
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:this is the typical quality of what I will call the 'pro-genocide' posts itt lmao
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Mar 26, 2021 21:34
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Not surprisingly that quote/answer has a second paragraph that appears to be frequently truncated so I will produce it here
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Mar 26, 2021 21:36
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Serf posted:the only issue with the xi = pooh bear joke is that its old hat, run into the ground by libs. its like the "trump and putin are gay for each other" thing, although that one was never funny I can see this, but I haven't seen enough of it to run it into the ground for me. So it still makes me lol.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:39
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Not surprisingly that quote/answer has a second paragraph that appears to be frequently truncated so I will produce it here the most useful and significant political action is posting in cspam imo
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Mar 26, 2021 21:39
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Not surprisingly that quote/answer has a second paragraph that appears to be frequently truncated so I will produce it here its a good thing that everyone here agrees that what is happening in xinjiang is a human rights abuse then
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Mar 26, 2021 21:41
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I can see that, so what I'd say is, the ranking goes: criticizing the actions of your own country -> criticizing the actions of other countries ---------------------> criticizing other people for improperly prioritizing which country they criticize
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Mar 26, 2021 21:43
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on thing that's been bothering me is that while everyone here 100% acknowledges that most (all) western reporting are at minimum tainted by adrian zenz and the us state department and should be looked at with a poo poo load of skepticism no one has talked about how chinese media isn't also tainted as hell when it comes to reporting on issues inside their own boarder as well that's my main issue ive had with this entire discussion is that there (at least to me) seems to be a double standard of dismissing 100% of western sources (which ill grant we should be dismissing 95% at least with how tainted it's been shown to be) we're at the same time also suppose to believe everything chinese state media is releasing as well? in short, only trust your fists, the media will never help you
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Mar 26, 2021 21:43
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Serf posted:its a good thing that everyone here agrees that what is happening in xinjiang is a human rights abuse then If anything I'm just teasing the academic laziness of purposely omitting a key part of a statement (admittedly, it seems to have been transcribed from him speaking so maybe a complete source is just not easily available) in defense of a point that the full context of the quote simply does not support. That's the sort of poo poo a good professor will stomp out in a freshman seminar, or at least a very strong lesson that if you're going to blindly parrot a popular quote that it usually pays to make sure the surrounding material doesn't then basically contradict the purported point made in the quote. I'm not saying it's intentional misrepresentation but it's willful misrepresentation in that the folks posting it want very much to believe it's sufficient and true in and of itself.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:47
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Gringostar posted:on thing that's been bothering me is that while everyone here 100% acknowledges that most (all) western reporting are at minimum tainted by adrian zenz and the us state department and should be looked at with a poo poo load of skepticism no one has talked about how chinese media isn't also tainted as hell when it comes to reporting on issues inside their own boarder as well I talked about this a lot. That was like 10 or 15 pages ago and everyone I was talking with also agreed, but the interpretation of what that kind of thing means differs. For me it means I'm willing to assume the worst until evidence arises against it, for others it means they'll extend benefit of the doubt to China until shown otherwise.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:48
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Gringostar posted:on thing that's been bothering me is that while everyone here 100% acknowledges that most (all) western reporting are at minimum tainted by adrian zenz and the us state department and should be looked at with a poo poo load of skepticism no one has talked about how chinese media isn't also tainted as hell when it comes to reporting on issues inside their own boarder as well There's a lot of criticism of China's Xinjiang policies based purely off Chinese media, such as an article by an Indian Maoist group that I posted a few pages back. It's just that that criticism largely doesn't allege death camps, mass enslavement, etc, so it just doesn't do it any more for your average China watcher.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:48
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Flying-PCP posted:I can see that, so what I'd say is, the ranking goes: criticizing the actions of your own country -> criticizing the actions of other countries ---------------------> criticizing other people for improperly prioritizing which country they criticize this middle step here is where people start whipping up nationalist fervor and ramping up sinophobia. i have asian friends who are afraid to go out in public already. and that's without xinjiang being particularly covered in the press (i don't think america pretending to care about muslims would play well) Gringostar posted:on thing that's been bothering me is that while everyone here 100% acknowledges that most (all) western reporting are at minimum tainted by adrian zenz and the us state department and should be looked at with a poo poo load of skepticism no one has talked about how chinese media isn't also tainted as hell when it comes to reporting on issues inside their own boarder as well if we don't trust us state media, why would we trust china state media? i wouldn't trust the ccp as far as i could throw them Good Soldier Svejk posted:If anything I'm just teasing the academic laziness of purposely omitting a key part of a statement (admittedly, it seems to have been transcribed from him speaking so maybe a complete source is just not easily available) in defense of a point that the full context of the quote simply does not support. academia continually proves how much it sucks lol
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Mar 26, 2021 21:51
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i tend to frontload “whataboutism” to slap down any notion of “we have to DO something about this” - maybe im not giving people here enough credit but for americans, every discussion about the abuses of another state needs to begin with the absolute understanding that the US is the great monstrous evil empire of the world, should never be encouraged to sanction or otherwise take action on an issue, and is absolutely notorious for making up poo poo and funding disinformation it is very easy for discussions in western-centric forums to lose sight of this context, and cspam isn’t totally immune to chauvinism and it really is a matter of keeping things in context and perspective - and also questioning why we are talking about this atrocity in particular, and not a host of other comparable atrocities occurring elsewhere (because the us sees china as a rising threat and xinjiang can be wielded as a cudgel, yet central african republic or, say, sudan - well - they aren’t a threat, they aren’t covered in the media, and there isn’t a heap of CSPAM discussion about them. let’s be aware of why that is) i think we have pretty well established this, though, so i have calmed down
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Mar 26, 2021 21:53
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THS posted:i tend to frontload “whataboutism” to slap down any notion of “we have to DO something about this” - maybe im not giving people here enough credit but for americans, every discussion about the abuses of another state needs to begin with the absolute understanding that the US is the great monstrous evil empire of the world, should never be encouraged to sanction or otherwise take action on an issue, and is absolutely notorious for making up poo poo and funding disinformation i think it deserves reposting every now and again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKbEaZ-Jnws as you can see here american state media has chosen to censor this work critical of the regime, in a display of grossly authoritarian suppression of dissent
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Mar 26, 2021 21:56
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Serf posted:academia continually proves how much it sucks lol Well at least now that you're properly informed I hope you'll no longer invoke that quote at the risk of intentionally deceiving people rather than accidentally doing so.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:59
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Xi gets furious about being called Pooh so it remains funny and good
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Mar 26, 2021 22:00
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Well at least now that you're properly informed I hope you'll no longer accidentally invoke that quote at the risk of intentionally deceiving people. lol
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Mar 26, 2021 22:00
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Well at least now that you're properly informed I hope you'll no longer invoke that quote at the risk of intentionally deceiving people rather than accidentally doing so. from now on i’ll attribute the quote to glenn greenwald to make more people mad or annoyed
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Mar 26, 2021 22:04
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Well at least now that you're properly informed I hope you'll no longer invoke that quote at the risk of intentionally deceiving people rather than accidentally doing so. no, i don't people are going to agree that counting the number of syllables is valid epistemology, no matter how fevent the belief that that truth can be distinguished by surface area
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Mar 26, 2021 22:05
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THS posted:from now on i’ll attribute the quote to glenn greenwald to make more people mad or annoyed It'd be fun to try Marx or Lenin and see how long it takes people to catch on
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Mar 26, 2021 22:07
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oxsnard posted:Xi gets furious about being called Pooh so it remains funny and good citation needed
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Mar 26, 2021 22:07
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Admiral Ray posted:I talked about this a lot. That was like 10 or 15 pages ago and everyone I was talking with also agreed, but the interpretation of what that kind of thing means differs. For me it means I'm willing to assume the worst until evidence arises against it, for others it means they'll extend benefit of the doubt to China until shown otherwise.
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Mar 26, 2021 22:10
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THS posted:i tend to frontload “whataboutism” to slap down any notion of “we have to DO something about this” - maybe im not giving people here enough credit but for americans, every discussion about the abuses of another state needs to begin with the absolute understanding that the US is the great monstrous evil empire of the world, should never be encouraged to sanction or otherwise take action on an issue, and is absolutely notorious for making up poo poo and funding disinformation The funny thing is we actually CAN do something about this, but it's opposing Western intervention in the Middle East, which, oops, isn't the conclusion we're supposed to draw!
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Mar 26, 2021 22:11
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Gringostar posted:why the gently caress does no one acknowledge the "primarily" part of that quote? Because its about not following the ball when the state department throws it. Even if we find out, with perfect clarity, whats happening in Xinjiang, whats the next step? What should be done? Military action? Sanctions? If so, why haven't these been levied at the country we live in? If China started drone bombing DHS facilities, or supplying arms to people attack US bases occupying the middle east, wouldn't that be justified? The reason the focus should always remain on the US is because we've anointed ourselves as the only person who is allowed to act on a global scale, and we've fully just accepted this as citizens. When other countries invade, thats tyrannical, and they must be stopped. But when we do it, nobody can stop us. So our crimes do take on a uniqueness that means we should care about them more.
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Mar 26, 2021 22:29
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THS posted:i tend to frontload “whataboutism” to slap down any notion of “we have to DO something about this” - maybe im not giving people here enough credit but for americans, every discussion about the abuses of another state needs to begin with the absolute understanding that the US is the great monstrous evil empire of the world, should never be encouraged to sanction or otherwise take action on an issue, and is absolutely notorious for making up poo poo and funding disinformation oh I hadn't refreshed the page in forever I guess lol. this is basically what im getting at, yeah
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Mar 26, 2021 22:30
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Varinn posted:Because its about not following the ball when the state department throws it. Even if we find out, with perfect clarity, whats happening in Xinjiang, whats the next step? What should be done? Military action? Sanctions? If so, why haven't these been levied at the country we live in? If China started drone bombing DHS facilities, or supplying arms to people attack US bases occupying the middle east, wouldn't that be justified? the world should 100% be sanctioning the us for a ton of stuff though 
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Mar 26, 2021 22:31
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