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Early draft for the Santiago-3 project, Baquedano to be held at Terminal Dogma
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Mar 17, 2021 22:29
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https://twitter.com/KawsachunNews/status/1373031739422048263 https://twitter.com/KawsachunNews/status/1373033079305031689 https://twitter.com/KawsachunNews/status/1373038711886254084 Meanwhile, at the WaPo... quote:Opinion: The Bolivian government is on a lawless course. Its democracy must be preserved
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Mar 19, 2021 23:39
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Holy gently caress that article is infuriating. They're still holding onto the idea that the 2019 election was rigged for Morales. They bring up the already debunked OAS analysis. They point to "millions of people in the streets" protesting the result as if that invalidates it, when something like 80% of Republicans thought the 2020 US election was rigged. And then they cry to Biden that he should intervene now. This is pathetic. What a worthless, shitrag piece of propaganda E: when you think about it, when you have American newspapers publishing pro-coup poo poo like this it's no surprise Luis and MAS are cracking down to try and stop another coup. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 23:56
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Spice World War II posted:Meanwhile, at the WaPo... Holy gently caress quote:ONLY A FEW months ago, the Andean nation of Bolivia seemed to be on its way to healing, after a year that had thrown its political future into jeopardy. What channel was this on??? Like HBO? quote:Mr. Arce’s government claims that it is merely enforcing laws against sedition that Ms. Áñez purportedly broke by fomenting a “coup” against Mr. Morales. Ms. Áñez is certainly not blameless in Bolivia’s problems, having governed high-handedly, including by trying, shortly after she took office, to shield security forces from punishment for sometimes deadly violence against pro-Morales protesters. That's a funny way to say "suppressed the opposition party with right wing death squads and ordered multiple massacres." quote:Mr. Morales lost power because of his own attempt to subvert the 2019 election — which Organization of American States (OAS) observers confirmed at the time — and the Bolivian people’s massive rejection of it in the streets. "Ultra-right reactionary militia overwhelmed the country? That's just democracy working." quote:The Biden administration should lead a regional effort to preserve democratic stability in this long-suffering country, lest crisis turn into catastrophe. Whoever wrote this sentence possesses a level of sociopathic bloodlust that should be publicly spit upon. "Editorial board" my rear end. Show yourself you coward.
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Mar 20, 2021 00:05
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Añez must be made an example of. I leave it to Bolivians to determine what that is.
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Mar 20, 2021 00:29
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So I'm interested in learning more about Venezuela and how it got to where it is today (I may or may not be sick of it being thrown around as an argument against Socialism). Got any recommendations on what to read or watch? I'm Spanish so either language is fine.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:13
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https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1375831718633029633?s=19
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Mar 27, 2021 17:22
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I really hope Bolivia is prepared for all the piping hot Democracy Joe Biden is going to rain down on it! Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 27, 2021 |
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Mar 27, 2021 18:25
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sometimes not having a port is a benefit https://twitter.com/Saralasor/status/1375833312225284097
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Mar 27, 2021 18:41
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The best thing Trump did was destroying State
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Mar 27, 2021 18:52
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I legitimately miss Trump in terms of foreign policy.
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Mar 27, 2021 18:59
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obama-trump feels like LBJ-Nixon in that way
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Mar 27, 2021 19:22
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punk rebel ecks posted:I legitimately miss Trump in terms of foreign policy. Even if you're only talking about Latin America, Trump put Elliott Abrams in charge of Venezuela policy, and was POTUS when the OAS was providing Anez and co. with the pretext for the Bolivia coup in the first place.
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Mar 27, 2021 19:26
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punk rebel ecks posted:I legitimately miss Trump in terms of foreign policy. It's a mixed bag, yes there was less interventionism (Yay!) and on the other hand he wholly emboldened other fascists much like the ones in Bolivia (Boo!).
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Mar 27, 2021 19:28
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Silver2195 posted:Even if you're only talking about Latin America, Trump put Elliott Abrams in charge of Venezuela policy, and was POTUS when the OAS was providing Anez and co. with the pretext for the Bolivia coup in the first place. If Clinton was president during this time then Guidado would be leading Venezuela and Anez would still be ruling Bolivia. Like most things, Trump played the part to drum up his support but behind closed doors he didn't give a poo poo.
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Mar 27, 2021 19:28
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100YrsofAttitude posted:It's a mixed bag, yes there was less interventionism (Yay!) and on the other hand he wholly emboldened other fascists much like the ones in Bolivia (Boo!). I mean, the US actually sponsored an incredibly incompetent coup in Venezuela, gave moral support to a coup in Bolivia and huge moral support to a fascist like Bolsonaro. If you really think the Trump admin was better than normal I can only assume that you think doing some incompetent, mask off, support for fascists in Latin America on top of the normal US policies is better? Because generally Trump didn't stop normal US foreign policy actions, he just made a lot of public declarations that meant they stopped doing all the publicised humanitarian/aid type stuff and kept doing all the hard imperialism without oversight. So really, it's saying you think US imperialism is better if it's ignorable and they stop pretending to make any effort to improve the lives of people around the world.
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Mar 27, 2021 19:33
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MrNemo posted:I mean, the US actually sponsored an incredibly incompetent coup in Venezuela, gave moral support to a coup in Bolivia and huge moral support to a fascist like Bolsonaro. If you really think the Trump admin was better than normal I can only assume that you think doing some incompetent, mask off, support for fascists in Latin America on top of the normal US policies is better? Because generally Trump didn't stop normal US foreign policy actions, he just made a lot of public declarations that meant they stopped doing all the publicised humanitarian/aid type stuff and kept doing all the hard imperialism without oversight. So really, it's saying you think US imperialism is better if it's ignorable and they stop pretending to make any effort to improve the lives of people around the world. Not ignorable, but it tends to be better for everyone here when the USA is incompetent, yeah. Under a more competent administration the coup in Bolivia would've stuck, much like the one in Brazil did.
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Mar 27, 2021 19:40
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MrNemo posted:I mean, the US actually sponsored an incredibly incompetent coup in Venezuela, gave moral support to a coup in Bolivia and huge moral support to a fascist like Bolsonaro. If you really think the Trump admin was better than normal I can only assume that you think doing some incompetent, mask off, support for fascists in Latin America on top of the normal US policies is better? Because generally Trump didn't stop normal US foreign policy actions, he just made a lot of public declarations that meant they stopped doing all the publicised humanitarian/aid type stuff and kept doing all the hard imperialism without oversight. So really, it's saying you think US imperialism is better if it's ignorable and they stop pretending to make any effort to improve the lives of people around the world. what an awful loving post lol
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Mar 27, 2021 19:43
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punk rebel ecks posted:If Clinton was president during this time then Guidado would be leading Venezuela and Anez would still be ruling Bolivia. Like most things, Trump played the part to drum up his support but behind closed doors he didn't give a poo poo. Obama was significantly milder on Venezuela than Trump. His sanctions were individual-focused (and may have caused a chilling effect but that's a far cry from what Trump did) and afaik he didn't really lift a finger to, you know, actually replace Maduro / make Venezuela not a one party state. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 27, 2021 |
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Mar 27, 2021 19:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Obama was significantly milder on Venezuela than Trump. i didn't realize obama lifted the blockades during his term
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Mar 27, 2021 19:44
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I think there's also the fact that the american left was very critic of their country's imperialism when Turmp was in power, but when their own got back to the white house, most them just resumed not caring at all about it or even supporting it openly. So when democrats are in power, the USA can be imperialist with even less internal resistance than usual But yah, Trumps rethoric alone helped empowering the most disgusting latin america far right and for that alone, it i was good that he is out But Biden and the democratic party aren't our friends, and we better not forget that
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Mar 27, 2021 19:48
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You don't actually have to hand it to Trump for using his reverse-Midas touch on US imperialism. Meanwhile, in Chile: https://twitter.com/hernan_sr/status/1375828810000699392 over 7000 daily cases, 80%+ of the country under heavy lockdown 
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Mar 27, 2021 19:51
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Meanwhile Republicans go isolationist when Democrats are in charge. So really the solution to US foreign policy (and everything else in that country) is to elect a third party.
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Mar 27, 2021 19:51
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So far as I know, Obama only ever sanctioned individuals, while the Trump administration introduced wave after wave of sanctions against the state as a whole, its industries, and corporations that associated with the state on top of an economic embargo and musing about invading to take their oil. At the time, it seemed very possible that Trump could've launched an invasion just to distract the American public from domestic failures, and just because it didn't end up happening doesn't mean that it couldn't have.i say swears online posted:i didn't realize obama lifted the blockades during his term There was never a blockade. Anyhow, Maduro got his Facebook account frozen for spreading false information about a miracle cure for Coronavirus.
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Mar 27, 2021 20:10
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100YrsofAttitude posted:It's a mixed bag, yes there was less interventionism (Yay!) and on the other hand he wholly emboldened other fascists much like the ones in Bolivia (Boo!). This is less Latin America-specific, but Trump was also even more gung-ho about unaccountable drone strikes than Obama was, and relaxed restrictions on who could be bombed and when, which led to significant increases in civilian casualties in places like Afghanistan. The image of "Donald the Dove" doesn't actually represent what Trump did or tried to do, it's based far more in him being incompetent than in him being benign, since attempted interventions like Guaido or Anez didn't stick. Not to mention the successful criminal stuff like blanket sanctions that starve Venezuelans to death or piracy to seize shipments of legally-traded goods heading to Venezuela just because.
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Mar 27, 2021 20:19
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vyelkin posted:This is less Latin America-specific, but Trump was also even more gung-ho about unaccountable drone strikes than Obama was, and relaxed restrictions on who could be bombed and when, which led to significant increases in civilian casualties in places like Afghanistan. The image of "Donald the Dove" doesn't actually represent what Trump did or tried to do, it's based far more in him being incompetent than in him being benign, since attempted interventions like Guaido or Anez didn't stick. Not to mention the successful criminal stuff like blanket sanctions that starve Venezuelans to death or piracy to seize shipments of legally-traded goods heading to Venezuela just because. Trump got rid of requirements to report on military strikes or possible civilian casualties. Since they no longer had easy access to the information, US media largely stopped reporting any strikes or resulting casualties. This, combined with Trump announcing he was pulling out of Syria (meaning keeping the troops here but limiting them to protecting US oil interests and not civilians) has produced regressive leftists talking points about Trump being far less damaging than Obama and much more peaceful in his outlook. In other words, people who are happy with the US being imperialist as long as the government isn't telling anyone about it.
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Mar 27, 2021 21:50
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MrNemo posted:has produced regressive leftists talking points about Trump being far less damaging than Obama and much more peaceful in his outlook. In other words, people who are happy with the US being imperialist as long as the government isn't telling anyone about it. It's moreso that there's a valuable conversation to be had on if drone strikes or regime change/nation destroying are more damaging to the world, and a lot of leftists lean towards the latter. Obama's lawfare approach to Brazil resulted in a fascist president whos active denial of COVID led to 300,000 deaths. Can we say that Trump's drone strikes (which are absolutely terrible) has matched this? What if we throw in Honduras and Libya? Egypt? A lot of leftists would prefer an impotent and incompetent warhawk to the cold competence of past presidents' approach to foreign policy.
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Mar 27, 2021 22:30
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I will concede there is an argument to be made that the results on incompetent fascism could be less bad, in the immediate, than competent status quo interventionism. I'd argue when it comes to Trump though he was happy to permit much of that status quo interventionism to continue without oversight. I guess you could say the left response to this (in areas) is a case of wishful thinking and, basically, falling for the same kind of con Trump always pulls. Make a big show of saying he's solved a problem, tell people not to report anything about it and declare victory. In this case also to prevent the 'wasteful' side of interventionism, which is the attempt at any kind of hearts and minds work, humanitarian stuff or measures to protect allies or perceived civilian/neutral elements from conflicts. I guess some elements would be fine with this, if you view the 'hearts and minds' or humanitarian work carried out by military units as an entirely cynical effort at propaganda and thus every life saved or improved by them being at the cost of dozens more in a prolonged conflict. But at base, Trump cut out anything that could be perceived as 'positive' elements of these engagements loudly and publicly and then permitted the bits that involved direct financial interests or killing people to done without oversight. I'd also argue that we as a globe were, at least partially, lucky that Trump's incompetent warhawkishness didn't result in any conflicts. If his assassination of an Iranian general had actually sparked off a new multi-state war and a few dozen thousand more US troops in the middle east people would probably be not be arguing that point. And unless you want to say there was never any real chance of that (or any of the other confrontational poo poo Trump pulled) leading to a hot war then going for the incompetent warhawk seems to be an argument that you're happy rolling the dice on another Gulf War II rather than deliberate interventions like Libya. I'll note, I'm not making an argument here that Obama was a good man or that the US improved the situations in Syria or Libya, both those countries are utterly hosed and millions of people have had their lives torn apart. Likewise the US under Obama continued to be a destructive force in Latin America. I just think that it did so in a way that was predictable and limited, I don't think Trump was peaceful and I think it's quite possible that despite his incompetence he could have kicked off a conflict somewhere in the globe by forcing some act of idiocy on the military brass or even some more aggressive than usual strike doing that due to the lack of oversight under Trump.
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Mar 27, 2021 23:04
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MrNemo posted:I will concede there is an argument to be made that the results on incompetent fascism could be less bad, in the immediate, than competent status quo interventionism. The main point here isn't that Trump is defensible - it's that people like Obama or Biden are indefensible. The fact that there's even room for debate on the topic proves that the people who frame Trump as "emboldening fascism" (with the clear implication that the partisan alternative would not do this) don't have a leg to stand on. The specific argument that someone like Trump is worse is a very strange conclusion to arrive at given we have decades of "mainstream" US governments doing things dramatically more harmful than anything that happened under Trump. Like, if you assumed that mainstream US politics was just developed from scratch starting in 2008 I can vaguely understand why someone might think this way, but these are all the same sorts of people who were responsible for things like the Iraq War. The most generous possible conclusion that can be reasonably drawn is "it's impossible to say which is worse." Spice World War II posted:Meanwhile, at the WaPo... But have you considered that US media isn't propaganda because it genuinely believes the same things as the US state department? As opposed to the devious foreign media, which we magically know to be deliberately misleading (because there's certainly no way other that other countries could also have journalists that agree with the dominant ideology of their respective governments). In the US, it's simply a coincidence that our media believes the same things as the US State Department. It's almost like people are starting with a completely subjective idea of what constitutes "propaganda" and working backwards to come up with a definition that manages to exclude the sources they trust and enjoy.
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Mar 28, 2021 00:51
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Ytlaya posted:The main point here isn't that Trump is defensible - it's that people like Obama or Biden are indefensible. The fact that there's even room for debate on the topic proves that the people who frame Trump as "emboldening fascism" (with the clear implication that the partisan alternative would not do this) don't have a leg to stand on. This is really the heart of the issue. We have on this very page a tweet by the Biden administration, literally lending moral support for the perpetrators of a fascist coup in Bolivia. Just a few posts later, the argument starts being made that because Trump lent moral support to a fascist coup in Bolivia he must have been worse than Biden. Clearly the urgent need to defend a democratic administration against the outrageous accusation that they might be similarly bad or even worse than Trump seems to short circuit the reasoning there.
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Mar 28, 2021 02:24
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I realized while posting that I was vastly generalizing and not really being as serious as I should've been. I doubt there'll ever be a regime in the US that will be truly friendly towards Latin America, or that will have its best interests at heart. The US has never not seen the region as its protectorate/backyard and will not do anything unless its for the benefit of the US. So while one presidents actions may slightly vary from another, overall their intentions and objectives are the same.
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Mar 28, 2021 02:35
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Speaking of it https://twitter.com/PamKeithFL/status/1375988069896192003 lol https://twitter.com/PamKeithFL/status/1376000429088251910 Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 13:18
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Are there any good books about the history of South and Central America from the beginning of the 20th century onwards?
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Mar 28, 2021 13:24
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Spice World War II posted:We have on this very page a tweet by the Biden administration, literally lending moral support for the perpetrators of a fascist coup in Bolivia. I can't speak for anyone else but the post I was responding to was: punk rebel ecks posted:I legitimately miss Trump in terms of foreign policy. Like I said, there seems to be a strain of thinking on the left that Trump was somehow a 'dove', less interventionist, etc. and that Democrats returning to the standard State Dept. thinking is a regression that ignores the dangerous aspects of Trump's bellicosity and incompetence. People don't need to be claiming poo poo like Trump being morally superior on foreign policy to criticise Democrats. The US is super lovely on Latin America policy, Biden should not pushing domestic policy responses in places like Bolivia where the side currently on the receiving end of legally questionable treatment (and I mean legally, not morally) had launched a coup against a legitimate government. I would say I think that's preferable to relaunching full sanctions on Cuba and informally trying to drum support for a boots on the ground invasion of Venezuela as well as probably giving tacit backing to an incompetently attempted foreign coup. Again - this particular debate wasn't spurred by people defending the Biden administration, it was spurred by someone seeing Biden doing something bad and taking the first opportunity to start whitewashing Trump's foreign policy.
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Mar 28, 2021 14:35
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I will grant her points for this Nigel Farage framing Lula angle, its a new one
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Mar 28, 2021 15:35
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So is this thread trying to say that all of Trump's sanctions were good for Venezuela now? Or was Venezuela just taking one for the team to spare the world from normalized relations between the US and Iran?
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Mar 28, 2021 16:21
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The only credit I will give to trump is that he correctly identified Guiado as a massive loser in the most trumpian way possible.
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Mar 28, 2021 16:28
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He has COVID at the moment btw, which goes to show how dangerous it can be. Even when someone is completely isolated they can get it
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Mar 28, 2021 17:15
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It's really funny that they've managed to make a would-be puppet president version of Jeb!
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Mar 28, 2021 17:18
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| # ? May 10, 2024 20:28 |
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Redczar posted:Even when someone is completely isolated they can get it 
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Mar 28, 2021 17:36
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