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M_Gargantua posted:For the audience just a quick reminder racism and misogyny and various shades of transphobia and general toxicity are still a huge problem in modern publishing But BananaNutkins assured me that racism in the publishing industry is over because Barack Obama had a book published
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Mar 29, 2021 06:10
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What is the "Beautiful Prose"? (self.KingkillerChronicle) submitted 10 days ago by Hrovitnir If a thread like this has been posted please link me to it. Hello! I've read the Kingkiller Chronicles (including TSROST) and they are far and away my favorite book series. As i've read and watched what makes the books so good i've come across these phrases that go something like: "What i love about this book is the beautiful prose Rothfuss writes". I definitely agree that the book is extremely well made (it is my favorite after all) but since i am no literary genius, nor do i have too much experience in the book reading department, i don't know what this beautiful prose is. Care to explain it to me in a literary and detailed sense, please? Examples would be appreciated. scowlbear 16 points 10 days ago “It was deep and wide as autumn’s ending. It was heavy as a great river-smooth stone. It was the patient cut-flower sound of a man who is waiting to die.” I’ve read entire novels without seeing anything so beautiful and that is on the first page of the first book. I think he’s just very good at simile, metaphor and word-choice and using them to evoke very specific and relatable, but hard-to-describe, feelings. YodaJosh81 4 points 10 days ago I think he’s just very good at simile, metaphor and word-choice and using them to evoke very specific and relatable, but hard-to-describe, feelings. This exactly. If I had to give it a term I would say it's impressionist or expressionist, but more as those terms are used in art/music than in literature. Point being that Pat uses those literary devices along with sentence structure to evoke feelings and mood beyond the literal meanings of the words themselves. So when you read a passage, you not only come away with a literal understanding of what it means, but also a feeling/mood that accompanies (or in more clever cases, opposes) what is literally written. taborlyn13 9 points 10 days ago Start with the fact that all writers of fiction are liars. Some are just better at it than others. We read fiction because we want to be manipulated, and authors who succeed at this are those who are able to imbue their prose with meaning greater than the sum of the words they use. They are able to show rather than merely tell. The line that absolutely toppled me was, yes, "the cut flower sound of a man who is waiting to die." But the entire segment radiates melancholy, foreboding, and a narrative delivery that feels altogether too aware. If it were recorded, it would sound like a slightly echo-ey Morgan Freeman on the saddest day of his life. Other sections, especially those that include dialogue, are light-hearted and carefree. I'm thinking of the conversation between Laurian, Arliden, and Ben here. The dialogue is convincing and true-to-life and captures perfectly the joy, pride, and concern of good parents being told that their child really is something special. But it never feels forced or contrived. And then there's the depth and complexity of the writing. While I enjoyed Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, it was merely complicated rather than complex. One is a great, sprawling tapestry; the other is three-dimensional, as if warp and weft have been stitched with silver and gold threads woven randomly throughout. (Does this even make any sense?) You feel rather than read these interconnected, repeated motifs permeating and penetrating the entire work. Somehow you just know that every damned word has been carefully selected for effect, yet the manipulation is never intrusive or heavy-handed. Every time I read the books, I see more of these glittering, elusive sparks of intersecting meaning. But mostly, it's the characters' flaws that make them intriguing. People who claim, for example, that Kvothe is a Mary Sue (is that the right name?) do so because they're merely reading words on paper with their eyes. A more discerning reader might recognize that that there's a LOT that Kvothe is taking for granted and that he might be dead wrong in believing, but because he does, we do too. As Rothfuss put it, we love people despite, not because.
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Mar 29, 2021 06:42
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Kchama posted:Perhaps you shouldn't jump to condemnation yourself because you never actually read what happened either. Yes, Jemisin shouldn't be condemned for this, just her writing.
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Mar 29, 2021 06:51
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Sham bam bamina! posted:People who claim, for example, that Kvothe is a Mary Sue (is that the right name?) do so because they're merely reading words on paper with their eyes. What a fool I've been all these years...
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Mar 29, 2021 08:12
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Sham bam bamina! posted:But mostly, it's the characters' flaws that make them intriguing. People who claim, for example, that Kvothe is a Mary Sue (is that the right name?) do so because they're merely reading words on paper with their eyes. A more discerning reader might recognize that that there's a LOT that Kvothe is taking for granted and that he might be dead wrong in believing, but because he does, we do too. What's the name for this defence of bad writing? It's something that crops up a lot in the stuff that Reddit loves (Worm, for example, had this defence in spades.) It always seems strange to me and a sign of a reader who is desperate to read forethought intelligence into something that isn't there.
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Mar 29, 2021 09:01
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:What's the name for this defence of bad writing? It's something that crops up a lot in the stuff that Reddit loves (Worm, for example, had this defence in spades.) It always seems strange to me and a sign of a reader who is desperate to read forethought intelligence into something that isn't there. A mix of unreliable narrator and what tvtropes has dubbed the Chris Carter Effect. It's the presumption that the writer has some genius level plan that mere mortal won't understand until its shocking reveal, either through deliberate lying & contradictions, or every mysterious event/object all part of a 500 piece puzzle that will come together in the end. Rothfuss kind of said it outright, how even if there's no 3rd book he's proud of what he's done because he considers his job to make people "wonder" what could happen rather then finish the story.
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Mar 29, 2021 09:16
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I hope Rothfuss gets his beard stuck in a pencil-sharpener.
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Mar 29, 2021 10:27
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Sham bam bamina! posted:D3ad_Ins1d3 Reading this post made my brain make the cut-flower sound.
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Mar 29, 2021 12:37
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Those reddit posts are painful to read. Everyone on that subreddit has gone whatever the literary equivalent of stir crazy is due to the lack of a new book.
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Mar 29, 2021 14:34
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Ccs posted:Everyone on that subreddit has gone whatever the literary equivalent of stir crazy is due to the lack of a new book. submitted 11 days ago by TheMagicMooseIsGay Again, stay with me here. In Star Trek DS 9, Captain Sisko meets a woman (Fenna) who acts very much like Denna. She's mysterious, she flits in & out of Sisko's life, she has an older & possibly nefarious "patron" (Dr. Seyetik), and she constantly changes her name. (Nidelle, Fenna, etc...) The captain asks her repeatedly who she is & where she came from & she says: "You do know me, Benjamin. When I came here, I thought I was looking for a place, somewhere I belonged. But I was wrong. I wasn't looking for a place, I was looking for a person. I was looking for you." Does this not seem like the essence of Denna? Captain Sisko spends much of the latter half of the episode searching for clues as to Fenna's mysterious disappearance. The patron states "So honor the valiant who dies 'neath your sword, but pity the warrior who slays all his foes." - the Fall of Kang. The patron, Seyetik seems to be a larger than life individual who has transformed numerous worlds. He's obviously more than he seems & the constable, Odo, lets us know about half way through the episode that no one has entered his ship, despite Captain Sisko having spent the evening there. When in the presence of Seyetik, we see the woman (Fenna) plays the part of Nidelle, Seyetik's wife. But, outside of the ship, she is Fenna, who very much resembles Denna. In fact, when she changes names, she seems to completely change into a different person. This may be a similar occurrence to Kvothe changing his name (or having his name changed to) Kote. They may very well be two separate people. As the episode goes on, more and more parallels are drawn, so I'm going to recommend that you watch the episode and draw your own conclusions. But, Seyetik seems to be a larger-than-life being who has slain all of his foes and accomplished everything. He talks about how Nidelle was immediately infatuated with him (and that she was the daughter of a dignitary). I'm getting a very Haliax/Chandrian kind of vibe from this guy. At one point in the episode Fenna says to Sisko that she'll never leave him again. He replies that he wishes he could believe that. She says "you have to." - Keep in mind that she just straight up vanished earlier in the episode, possibly establishing a link between the captain's belief (Alar) and reality. It turns out that Fenna is a projection of Nidelle's subconscious mind. She can't leave Dr. Seyetik, so she projects an image of herself that can. She always has to return to him eventually, but she can be Fenna for a while and escape the reality of being married to this guy. I'm not going to spoil the end, you should watch it for yourselves. But I think we may see a correlation between book 3 & this episode, if book 3 ever comes out. But I will say, at the end, captain Sisko has to open a case. Inside is what Seyetik refers to as his "obituary." What's inside? Watch the episode.
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Mar 29, 2021 15:50
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Watch the episode. Well, at least this is a useful insight.
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Mar 29, 2021 16:00
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I checked that subreddit and every criticism of the book is met with "you need to read it a few more times, so the layers reveal themselves to you." This isn't Book of the New Sun, my dudes. My own attempt to reread Name of the Wind a few years ago met with me putting the book down in disgust because there really wasn't anything else to find. A reread only reveals the incoherent metaphors and suspicious treatment of female characters (those that there are, check how long it takes for one to be introduced.)
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Mar 29, 2021 16:04
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Lottery of Babylon posted:But BananaNutkins assured me that racism in the publishing industry is over because Barack Obama had a book published If you did research you would see that the gatekeepers, the people buying books from authors, are actively looking to buy from people from LGBTQ and diverse cultural backgrounds. It's easier to find publishing opportunities as someone in a protected group. I'm not being hateful or racist when I say that. I didn't even say it was wrong, so I don't know why I got probated. I write and sell stories and keep active tabs on all markets selling professional rates. If you did your research, you'll see the same thing. Being intersectional is not a barrier to getting through the gatekeepers anymore.
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Mar 29, 2021 16:28
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It certainly seems like the biggest publishing successes in sci-fi/fantasy lately have been from diverse authors, so the market is adjusting to match those expectations. Meanwhile sci-fi/fantasy adaptions to tv/film is still stuck in adapting old work from predominately white and male authors. George RR Martin's recent 8 figure deal with HBO probably won't result in any diverse projects being made on his watch, as it sounds like he wants to adapt work that he grew up reading.
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Mar 29, 2021 16:45
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BananaNutkins posted:If you did research you would see that the gatekeepers, the people buying books from authors, are actively looking to buy from people from LGBTQ and diverse cultural backgrounds. It's easier to find publishing opportunities as someone in a protected group. I'm not being hateful or racist when I say that. I didn't even say it was wrong, so I don't know why I got probated. Hmm, I won- BananaNutkins posted:Nah. It's that I entirely deny racial and sexual inequality in media. Well then!
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Mar 29, 2021 16:57
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BananaNutkins posted:If you did research you would see that the gatekeepers, the people buying books from authors, are actively looking to buy from people from LGBTQ and diverse cultural backgrounds. It's easier to find publishing opportunities as someone in a protected group. I'm not being hateful or racist when I say that. “I am not being an idiot,” he exclaimed, while dumping a pot of urine over his own head.
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Mar 29, 2021 17:19
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Evil Fluffy posted:Lots of people had the same reaction she did because that book's title is something anti-trans bigots love to say to belittle trans people. IIRC the exact reason the author used the title was as a gently caress You to those bigots. Like if someone writes a book whose title is the Fourteen Words and it's a savage takedown of white supremacy I won't be surprised if there's a lot of "what's this racist poo poo" reactions from people who don't want to read it either. It's an example of why marketing is important and the kind of impact titles make. It's also an example of why you shouldn't lean too hard on internet culture for marketing because you also bring in the assumptions people carry about those memes. The author should have put more thought into it. I'm not going to condemn her too harshly though because she undoubtedly got the sharp end of the stick compared to the people who came for her. I can't imagine the sheer horror of being forcibly outed like that, I've been lucky enough to be able to control when people find out my sexuality. The author made a misstep when she used a title with cultural baggage attached to it but she shouldn't have had to out herself to protect herself from the mob. eXXon posted:She didn't read it because (for the third time on this page) it was already taken down by the time she commented! There are lots of ways to get a copy of books wven after they've been taken down. Jemisin is a smart and internet-savvy person, she could have gotten her hands on a copy to read it if she wished to. Even if it was something simple like requesting assistance from twitter. quote:Here are screencaps of Jemisin's tweets on the subject, which she evidently thought were a bad idea and deleted: She joined the internet mob that came after a transgender woman because that transwoman made a joke title for her book. That's called dogpiling because she threw herself onto it alongside other people. I don't think bullying people based off book titles is good, I especially don't think bullying trans people in publishing is good, and I'm not going to budge from that position. These tweets are condescending and gross, not to mention they celebrate a transgender author being silenced because "the art wasn't good art." Jemisin is not in a position to be making that decision, which I suspect lead to her deleting those tweets. Yeah, I'm not budging from my position and reactions like this are why. I'm not going to back off being appalled that someone tried bullying a transgender woman. Kchama posted:Perhaps you shouldn't jump to condemnation yourself because you never actually read what happened either. Then it's even more baffling why Jemisin did it and apparently she had second thoughts as well since she deleted her condescending tweets about how art is morally good or bad. quote:Also, you were the one who said that Jemisin was the cause! That's why I had to do five minutes of research and found out that you were wrong. Historically I have bad reactions to finding out that someone has been bullying a transgender person. It's something that really, really ticks me off. I don't hold with it unless the circumstances were pretty extraordinary. This is not an extraordinary circumstance. Sham bam bamina! posted:Stay with me here. Correlations between the KKC & Star Trek Deep Space Nine: Season 2 Episode 9. (self.KingkillerChronicle) I'd be pretty stunned if Rothfuss actually watched Star Trek especially Deep Space Nine. DS9 is really good television with strong character work. It takes advantage of its medium to tell great stories about compelling people. Watching DS9 is a good alternative to reading about Kbothe but if Rothfuss did watch it, then he clearly absorbed nothing from it. Which is a shame. DS9 isn't any kind of "key" or whatever to understandign Knithe, the don't have any similarities at all. Even the conflict with the Ruh doesn't look like anything off of DS9, especially since DS9 actually goes into some detail about the local religion. HIJK fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Mar 29, 2021 |
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Mar 29, 2021 18:15
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I mean, both Rothfuss and Jemisin write about how, as Botl put it, masters are bad because we would be better masters. That said, I feel like we've beaten Jemisin's works to death in the Ablaze thread, so idk what else to say there that I haven't said there.
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Mar 29, 2021 19:37
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pentyne posted:Yeah, if you're going to "subvert" what is the equivalent of hate speech regularly screamed at people and used to make them feel marginalized or unsafe you really need to be upfront about why you are doing it and not expect people to assume you are using it in good faith. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 29, 2021 |
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Mar 29, 2021 20:37
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BananaNutkins posted:I'm not being hateful or racist when I say that. I didn't even say it was wrong, so I don't know why I got probated. It was this: BananaNutkins posted:Nah. It's that I entirely deny racial and sexual inequality in media. That's an explosive, unjustifiable, deeply offensive claim and inevitably created a massive thread derail. Even if your actual position is "just" BananaNutkins posted:There are barriers to everyone in making money in fiction. . .. BananaNutkins posted:If you did research you would see that the gatekeepers, the people buying books from authors, are actively looking to buy from people from LGBTQ and diverse cultural backgrounds . . .I write and sell stories and keep active tabs on all markets selling professional rates. If you did your research, you'll see the same thing. Being intersectional is not a barrier to getting through the gatekeepers anymore. There's an immense distinction between those two claims. The existence of scholarships for minority students doesn't mean that racism in college admissions is over, and the existence of markets for minority and LGBTQ fiction doesn't mean that the massive systemic biases which have existed in popular fiction for hundreds of years are all suddenly over. If you had stuck to the very fine line of "hey, it's not as bad as it used to be, specialized markets exist now" that would have been one thing, but the total denial of all racial and sexual inequality period went way, way, waaaay over the line. That's a ludicrous claim and not tolerable. In the future if you have questions about probations or other mod actions, my pm's and email are open.
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Mar 29, 2021 20:59
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So many new posts! Is he finally de- ...awwwww.
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Mar 29, 2021 21:33
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Chicken Butt posted:or maybe we just need to make a thread about Jemisin and about how she makes some people very angry. It sure is wierd how in post-racial society and industry, we have multiple active threads about white dudes in this genre who haven't published in over a decade, some of whom are literally dead and their replacements have active threads, and not one on acclaimed and popular author NK Jemisin. It's probably because she's just a hack. 
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Mar 30, 2021 01:21
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How many dragons are in her book? Are any of them not really dragons, but actually just a different kind of fire breathing reptile that's addicted to drug syrup?
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Mar 30, 2021 04:17
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Agreed, we should have a thread to mock Jemisin too.
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Mar 30, 2021 07:02
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Xarn posted:Agreed, we should have a thread to mock Jemisin too. I agree it would be a wonderful honeypot for the folks who she makes Big Mad
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Mar 30, 2021 07:45
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I mean its pretty lovely to imply the only reason someone might not enjoy her work is because of racesexism. I liked the first Broken Earth book well enough but the second was just so overwrought in its endless depictions of suffering and trauma that I just kind of zoned out and never bothered with third. But if you want to make a thread about, no one is stopping you.
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Mar 30, 2021 08:06
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A friend said the Kingkiller Chronicles was clearly "a book written by men for men" (self.KingkillerChronicle) submitted 15 days ago by qqBebop I was somewhat taken aback. I mean, it is from a man's perspective and will have masculine tendencies but I feel like there's so much more to be said. She was at the part where Kvothe enters the fae and spends time with Felurian. She said this after I asked what her thoughts on the book were and I admitted I thought they were they best books I've ever read. Idk her reaction made me question whether what she said was true. I feel like Rothfuss could have sexualized the story so much more and he didn't, not really. I was wondering what you all thought about it. SvenHudson Cthaeh 7 points 15 days ago You and some of the responses here are reacting as if media having a target demographic is a qualitative issue and that's approaching the question entirely the wrong way. It can be for men and still be either good or bad, women saying they like it doesn't mean it's not for men, and female characters being well written or not has no bearing on whether it's for men. It's just a question of whether men as a group should be expected to find it more appealing than women as a group. Your friend is just saying that there are things she doesn't enjoy about it because she feels it catering to interests that are not her own. It should be fine with you that she feels that way about a thing you enjoy. LightningRavenWind 2 points 14 days ago* I'll be very blunt. You can dislike the Ademre and Felurian because of your hangups about sex, but please don't say that these two sections are "garbage", "fanfic" and Patrick self-insert, this just shows you're severely lacking in reading comprehension or that just because the subject matter is sex, everything else is just glossed over for the sake of your "cringe" and "eye rolls". They are not perfect parts, because nothing is perfect, but they, as with everything else in this story, serve multiple purposes and they are just as well written as everything else. If you think what I've said is unfair, I don't care. But maybe you should read the book again and pay actual attention this time? Try to get past your surface impressions of "this part has sex, therefore is bad". The encounter with Felurian has been alluded from the beginning and it is the first actual fantastic and legend-worthy thing Kvothe go through, unlike everything else before, that had half-truths and exaggerations mixed in between. arrentewalker 2 points 15 days ago Sex or no sex, I think people would complain about it regardless of how it was done. It's fascinating to me, it's such a big reflection of how today's societies have influenced us. You have a book poetically describing the sex, and people say that it's cringey. The scenes never once say "then my dick went into the hole." Which sounds super vulgar. This is my opinion, I have absolutely no problems with the sex in the books. It's beautiful and it makes all the people complaining seem like barbarians after I focus on the teachings of the Adem. It's like Patrick KNEW people would complain and huff about the sex parts. Hats of to Rothfuss, I bet he's laughing up his sleeve at it all. He used the sex as a distraction so he could sprinkle in the subtlest clues where only the most clever readers would see it. Brilliant. What a good joke! To everyone who can't stand it, I can understand where youbsre coming from, but I think you fell directly in the trap Patrick set for us. He baited us, and you guys took the bait. CharlyVazquez 5 points 15 days ago I feel that's a fair criticism. But I am really, genuinely, weirded out by how many people feel that repulsion for that scene just because it is sexual and erotic. Lets not forget that Rothfuss is also a person with his own sexual dimension and, if he wanted to put that into fiction, good for him. Nobody have to like it or dislike it, but the sheer aversion some people feel towards it seem to me like a weird puritanism rather than fair criticism. I feel like yeah, the KKC has a lot of male gaze, but I saw it reflected more towards other sequences, such as the rescue of the two girls from the fake Ruh. That screams so loud: "Not all men, but even some women too" to me. But crying about a recreational scene were he put whatever he considered erotic? Seems more like slut-shaming than anything else. And yes that happens to men too. ed: kept adding posts but there are too many bad reddit posts to add Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Mar 30, 2021 |
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Mar 30, 2021 08:48
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multijoe posted:I mean its pretty lovely to imply the only reason someone might not enjoy her work is because of racesexism. I liked the first Broken Earth book well enough but the second was just so overwrought in its endless depictions of suffering and trauma that I just kind of zoned out and never bothered with third. Yeah, but this thread shows at least one person willing to die on the hill of claiming racism/sexism isn't a problem in the publishing industry so regardless of anything else it sort of paints their opinions in a certain light.
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Mar 30, 2021 09:22
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Sham bam bamina! posted:The encounter with Felurian has been alluded from the beginning and it is the first actual fantastic and legend-worthy thing Kvothe go through, unlike everything else before, that had half-truths and exaggerations mixed in between. lmfao the first actual fantastic and legend-worthy thing he did - being a virgin who hosed REALLY good
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Mar 30, 2021 11:41
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Horizon Burning posted:lmfao ... and that was *after* he proved himself to be the greatest musician in the land — so good, in fact, that his audiences were unable to fully appreciate the subtlety of his musical genius — and then also proved himself the greatest wizard of the age when he went to Hogwarts*, being able to easily simultaneously defeat two classmates during magical sparring. *or whatever the gently caress it was called in Rothfuss’ pathetically unimaginative universe
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Mar 30, 2021 16:12
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As a person who reads books that don’t have dragons or spaceships on the cover and also really likes good smut, I can confidently say my issue with the Felurian scenes is not that they’re “erotic.” It is actually quite the opposite. DH Lawrence, Patrick Rothfuss is not.
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Mar 30, 2021 19:08
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Doctor Faustine posted:As a person who reads books that don’t have dragons or spaceships on the cover and also really likes good smut, I can confidently say my issue with the Felurian scenes is not that they’re “erotic.” It is actually quite the opposite. DH Lawrence, Patrick Rothfuss is not. What if you were, say, not a sex-haver, and then, someone wrote a character that was obviously a self-insert chubbie neckbeard who was magically the best at everything, magic included, and then that guy had sex. With a sex goddess. And he was such a good sex-haver, the sex goddess, who usually sexed guys to death, didn't sex the self-insert to death. How hot would that be?
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Mar 31, 2021 00:30
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Chicken Butt posted:... and that was *after* he proved himself to be the greatest musician in the land — so good, in fact, that his audiences were unable to fully appreciate the subtlety of his musical genius — and then also proved himself the greatest wizard of the age when he went to Hogwarts*, being able to easily simultaneously defeat two classmates during magical sparring. It's also after he goes full on AD&D magic-user and casts As I said before, Rothfuss is popular because he's written incel power fantasy.
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Mar 31, 2021 01:07
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the only way a tv show could do justice to the material is if it treated the books as the diary of a delusional person and while the narration is about him enchanting felurian with the five fingered oval office punch or whatever he did, the video itself shows him being ridden by a middle aged hermit as evil fluffy says also, cast the guy who played mclovin in superbad as kvothe
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Mar 31, 2021 02:27
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McLovin the Barbarian actually sounds slightly entertaining
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Mar 31, 2021 02:38
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M_Gargantua posted:For the audience just a quick reminder racism and misogyny and various shades of transphobia and general toxicity are still a huge problem in modern publishing Yeah, when is publishing finally going to get woke, loving chuds. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2021 02:43
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I'm hoping you're being sarcastic there
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Mar 31, 2021 02:56
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pentyne posted:Yeah, if you're going to "subvert" what is the equivalent of hate speech regularly screamed at people and used to make them feel marginalized or unsafe you really need to be upfront about why you are doing it and not expect people to assume you are using it in good faith. If you did that upfront, how would that, in any way, be subversive?
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Mar 31, 2021 04:11
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All I know is that I get bombarded by enough attack helicopter poo poo that I don't have the time or the will to look closely at each individual one and see which ones are subversive under the surface.
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Mar 31, 2021 05:31
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Lottery of Babylon posted:All I know is that I get bombarded by enough attack helicopter poo poo that I don't have the time or the will to look closely at each individual one and see which ones are subversive under the surface. Good point you’re probably also a famous writer who has won national awards with a large Twitter following who enjoys dogpiling writers on the basis of the title of their works and then claims successfully deplatforming someone using your zealous mob is actually a good thing because you know, without having read a single word of the text that it’s “bad art”. Thanks for bringing up the data point of your lived experience in re that helicopter meme it seems highly relevant.
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Mar 31, 2021 08:51
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