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Silver2195 posted:While I don't think "freedom of speech" is really the right framing for it, there's definitely been a long-running mentality/movement, which often appears superficially "left" or at least "liberal," that's big on "shocking the bourgeoisie" and sees "Mrs. Grundy" or "middle-class hypocrisy" or even "the superego" as the main enemy to be defeated. It sort of links together figures like Bill Maher, R. Crumb, George Carlin, various 19th-century French artists, etc. Much of the time it manifests itself as harmless artistic pretentiousness, and sometimes it can even do some good when repressive social/aesthetic norms really are an important part of the problem, but it's fundamentally amoral, and will aggressively break a good social norm just as easily as a bad one. Even in its more "progressive" forms it's tended to be unthinkingly sexist - notice that it's "Mrs. Grundy," not "Mr. Grundy" (and her Saturday Night Live Counterpart is the Church Lady, not the Church Gentleman, etc.). Over the past decade or so the US left-of-center has thankfully tended to turn against anti-Grundyism, while people like Milo Yiannopoulos have taken anti-Grundyism in a more overtly reactionary direction. But there's still a bunch of passionate anti-Grundyists who thought of themselves as liberal or leftist, like Maher and Taibbi, who didn't make the shift, are left feeling angry and confused, and now come across as the bigots and general assholes that they really were all along. I should add that I don't claim that any of this is a particularly original observation, even in the context of these forums; I remember some discussion of this, probably with somewhat different terminology, in the context of, e.g., Molly Crabapple's embarrassing past connections to Weev, and in the discussion of Kill All Normies back when that came out. In fact Kill All Normies itself, as the title suggests, made this point in more detail. (Unfortunately I think Angela Nagle became some sort of chud herself since then.) Of course, SA itself was pretty anti-Grundyist prior to 2012 or so, and even still is somewhat in comparison to, say, RPG.net.
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Mar 30, 2021 02:42
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Ah yeah, the old "A leftist with poor parents is envious. A leftist with rich parents is doing it out of guilt."
Grammarchist fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Mar 30, 2021 |
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Mar 30, 2021 02:46
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Yeah somewhere along the line Nagle went full Chud
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Mar 30, 2021 02:46
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Silver2195 posted:While I don't think "freedom of speech" is really the right framing for it, there's definitely been a long-running mentality/movement, which often appears superficially "left" or at least "liberal," that's big on "shocking the bourgeoisie" and sees "Mrs. Grundy" or "middle-class hypocrisy" or even "the superego" as the main enemy to be defeated. It sort of links together figures like Bill Maher, R. Crumb, George Carlin, various 19th-century French artists, etc. Much of the time it manifests itself as harmless artistic pretentiousness, and sometimes it can even do some good when repressive social/aesthetic norms really are an important part of the problem, but it's fundamentally amoral, and will aggressively break a good social norm just as easily as a bad one. Even in its more "progressive" forms it's tended to be unthinkingly sexist - notice that it's "Mrs. Grundy," not "Mr. Grundy" (and her Saturday Night Live Counterpart is the Church Lady, not the Church Gentleman, etc.). Over the past decade or so the US left-of-center has thankfully tended to turn against anti-Grundyism, while people like Milo Yiannopoulos have taken anti-Grundyism in a more overtly reactionary direction. But there's still a bunch of passionate anti-Grundyists who thought of themselves as liberal or leftist, like Maher and Taibbi, who didn't make the shift, are left feeling angry and confused, and now come across as the bigots and general assholes that they really were all along. whats a "mrs grundy"?
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Mar 30, 2021 02:47
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Dapper_Swindler posted:whats a "mrs grundy"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs_Grundy quote:Mrs Grundy is a figurative name for an extremely conventional or priggish person, a personification of the tyranny of conventional propriety.
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Mar 30, 2021 02:49
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah somewhere along the line Nagle went full Chud yeah, she had an ok point of why some channers went chuddy but from what i remeber she went full bore "well its ALL the WOKES/idpols fault and we need pure strasserism" type poo poo so the weird twitter prudes who get mad that video games have gore in them or superheroes are thing at all types? because thats who nagal blamed. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Mar 30, 2021 |
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Mar 30, 2021 02:49
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Dapper_Swindler posted:whats a "mrs grundy"?  No wait, sorry, that's Miss Grundy Wikipedia posted:Mrs Grundy is a figurative name for an extremely conventional or priggish person,[1] a personification of the tyranny of conventional propriety.[2] A tendency to be overly fearful of what others might think is sometimes referred to as grundyism.
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Mar 30, 2021 02:50
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah, she had an ok point of why some channers went chuddy but from what i remeber she went full bore "well its ALL the WOKES/idpols fault and we need pure strasserism" type poo poo
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Mar 30, 2021 02:51
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Silver2195 posted:I should add that I don't claim that any of this is a particularly original observation, even in the context of these forums; I remember some discussion of this, probably with somewhat different terminology, in the context of, e.g., Molly Crabapple's embarrassing past connections to Weev, and in the discussion of Kill All Normies back when that came out. In fact Kill All Normies itself, as the title suggests, made this point in more detail. (Unfortunately I think Angela Nagle became some sort of chud herself since then.) Of course, SA itself was pretty anti-Grundyist prior to 2012 or so, and even still is somewhat in comparison to, say, RPG.net. I think freedom of speech arguments are much more interesting when broken down into more specific, coherent principles like "we need to have a wider space for discussing tactics" or "we need iconoclasts" rather than "everyone should have the right to speak everywhere whenever whatever", the sort of vague libertarian-ish arguments go nowhere because the libertarian uses this formulation to avoid taking any real stances one way or the other. And to be quite honest, pointing out hypocrisy is a massive waste of time and mostly a moralistic gotcha that assumes politics is a matter of Being the Best Person. Grammarchist posted:Ah yeah, the old "A leftist with poor parents is envious. A leftist with rich parents is doing it out of guilt. It's almost like people who are gonna write a lot come from certain strata in society that have the time, energy, and education to write that. Marx would not have been able to write Das Kapital if he'd been a Rheinland coal miner rather than the son of a low level Prussian functionary.
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Mar 30, 2021 02:53
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FlamingLiberal posted:Right, so the Taibbi/GG poo poo different strain of it but yeah.
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Mar 30, 2021 02:53
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Funny that Glen has a problem with "unhinged media haters," who support leftist economics and come from rich families when he wrote that whiny article about how tragic it was that Trump didn't embrace Strasserism.
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Mar 30, 2021 03:56
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I know you've all seen the damned cartoon, but the notion of the paradox of tolerance does actually exist as a studied, complex, detailed element of political philosophy, originally and most clearly in Popper's Open Society and its Enemies. While the books (it's two volumes) aren't perfect in many ways, Popper's writing and ideas are really good for this particular moment in history, specifically addressing the challenges to democratic liberal systems of government in a period of greater ideologically driven sabotage. Give them a look.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Mar 30, 2021 |
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Mar 30, 2021 04:27
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In retrospect, Hillary Clinton platforming Jack Thompson may have been an early warning sign of her actually being an idiot. The whole violence/tits in video games moral crusades always have been a magnet for the grifters and unhinged outrage peddlers going after the softest possible targets. What you might call the Handmaid's Tale alliance of white feminists and religious right, before the latter completely gave up the pretence. (outside a few particularly out of touch old fucks in Australia) Panzeh posted:I think freedom of speech arguments are much more interesting when broken down into more specific, coherent principles like "we need to have a wider space for discussing tactics" or "we need iconoclasts" rather than "everyone should have the right to speak everywhere whenever whatever", the sort of vague libertarian-ish arguments go nowhere because the libertarian uses this formulation to avoid taking any real stances one way or the other. And it's not like it actually matters anyway. The left is targeted on catch-22s meant to discredit them no matter who they are (even if they have to make up poo poo like 'bro-adjacent') and the right and centre just completely ignore it.
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Mar 30, 2021 05:01
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Ghost Leviathan posted:In retrospect, Hillary Clinton platforming Jack Thompson may have been an early warning sign of her actually being an idiot. they never directly worked together but yeah pretty much. its one of the early reasons i never liked her and it never faded. one of the big issues for clinton apart from the politics(obviously) is that she always found stupid ways to make randos dislike her. enough weird nerds grew up with her saying that poo poo didnt help her when she was running. thought to be fair, no one gives a poo poo about being a prude about video games outside weirdos on twitter and sometimes a old boomer politician. that blame game died after sandy hook.
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Mar 30, 2021 05:08
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There were a lot of Democrats who wanted to crack down on 'violent/offensive media' in the 90s. You had Clinton, Tipper Gore, Joe Lieberman, etc. Thankfully that never went very far and people like Jack Thompson have kind of disappeared into disgrace.
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Mar 30, 2021 05:36
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Sanguinia posted:The "poor powerless," Capitol Rioters were mostly rich as gently caress, this has been proven multiple times. Thanks for playing Glen, you loving Nazi The dude whose journalism contributed to freeing Lula is a nazi, you make no sense
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Mar 30, 2021 11:11
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tom kite posted:The dude whose journalism contributed to freeing Lula is a nazi, you make no sense Glenn Greenwald loves American fascists
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Mar 30, 2021 12:19
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tom kite posted:The dude whose journalism contributed to freeing Lula is a nazi, you make no sense Feel free to replace "nazi" with "fascist" or "fascist ally".
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Mar 30, 2021 12:26
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Greenwald likes fascists unless they inconvenience him personally, because above all else he's an absolute narcissist with no actual principles.
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Mar 30, 2021 12:56
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FlamingLiberal posted:There were a lot of Democrats who wanted to crack down on 'violent/offensive media' in the 90s. You had Clinton, Tipper Gore, Joe Lieberman, etc. Thankfully that never went very far and people like Jack Thompson have kind of disappeared into disgrace. Yeah. It’s also all that stuff is either universally accepted hobbies/media now or the companies/individuals are rich enough to not be hosed with by weird moral nuts, also folks have grown up with rap and video games now. Also gently caress Lieberman.
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Mar 30, 2021 13:02
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tom kite posted:The dude whose journalism contributed to freeing Lula is a nazi, you make no sense Can you explain how freeing Lula also requires being an anti-trans bigot? Or are you just doing a drive by as well?
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Mar 30, 2021 14:35
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Solkanar512 posted:Can you explain how freeing Lula also requires being an anti-trans bigot? Or are you just doing a drive by as well? Also anti immigrant (unless it's themselves of course)
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Mar 30, 2021 16:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Yeah. It’s also all that stuff is either universally accepted hobbies/media now or the companies/individuals are rich enough to not be hosed with by weird moral nuts, also folks have grown up with rap and video games now. Also gently caress Lieberman. it also helps that violent crime dramatically fell as all that stuff went mainstream so it has become rather hard to argue a causal connection in the way that people were concerned about in the 90s 
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Mar 30, 2021 16:15
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Jack Thompson got outright disbarred because he wouldn't give up on that white whale and for whatever reason accidentally submitted gay porn to the district court
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Mar 30, 2021 16:19
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tom kite posted:The dude whose journalism contributed to freeing Lula is a nazi, you make no sense Being a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer doesn't require him to goose-step and wear a swastika armband, dude. A simple examination of Greenwald's body of work shows him to be an intellectually dishonest, terminal contrarian who spent so long defending Nazis that he became one himself.
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Mar 30, 2021 16:26
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Feldegast42 posted:Jack Thompson got outright disbarred because he wouldn't give up on that white whale and for whatever reason accidentally submitted gay porn to the district court His later legal actions, submissions in court, etc, suggested mental decline had caused him to lose the filters on his neuroticism that allowed him to even be a functional lawyer. When that kind of dam bursts, it's ... dramatic
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Mar 30, 2021 16:33
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tom kite posted:The dude whose journalism contributed to freeing Lula is a nazi, you make no sense Other people have responded to this already, but this statement only makes sense if you assume that all right wing causes are part of some sort of unified, ideologically coherent movement that coordinate their actions. Greenwald has libertarian sensibilities, which means that it is perfectly coherent to his ideology to oppose a figure like Bolsonaro that is centralizing power in Brazil, and spit in the faces of marginalized groups who are demanding state-led action to redressthe inequalities they face. There's nothing magical or contradictory about these positions, even if he is deluded if he really believes that the "freedom" someone like Tucker Carlson goes on about would apply to him.
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Mar 30, 2021 16:51
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FlamingLiberal posted:There were a lot of Democrats who wanted to crack down on 'violent/offensive media' in the 90s. You had Clinton, Tipper Gore, Joe Lieberman, etc. Thankfully that never went very far and people like Jack Thompson have kind of disappeared into disgrace. The difference now is that the industry is gigantically bigger than it was even then and it's not such a soft target when the right pockets are being lined. Sort of like McCain going after UFC because it represented a threat to boxing.
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Mar 30, 2021 17:21
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tom kite posted:The dude whose journalism contributed to freeing Lula is a nazi, you make no sense Furthermore, I did a CTRL-F on his writings for phrase "I am a racist and transphobic bigot" and you know what came up? Nothing. And he has brown friends. Sounds like case closed to me!
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Mar 30, 2021 17:46
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Kavros posted:His later legal actions, submissions in court, etc, suggested mental decline had caused him to lose the filters on his neuroticism that allowed him to even be a functional lawyer.
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Mar 30, 2021 18:10
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Feldegast42 posted:Jack Thompson got outright disbarred because he wouldn't give up on that white whale and for whatever reason accidentally submitted gay porn to the district court he also like went nuts on his like fellow Florida lawyers and basically cheered when some lawyer died saving their family it was lots of weird insane petty poo poo he did. Sodomy Hussein posted:The difference now is that the industry is gigantically bigger than it was even then and it's not such a soft target when the right pockets are being lined. exactly. Kavros posted:His later legal actions, submissions in court, etc, suggested mental decline had caused him to lose the filters on his neuroticism that allowed him to even be a functional lawyer. i never noticed that but i was like 15 when i followed that poo poo. does he do anything now a days? i know some gamegate gently caress poo poo tried to recruit him for that "documentry" but i think it got cut. i am curious if jack has a twitter. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Mar 30, 2021 |
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Mar 30, 2021 18:40
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:Being a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer doesn't require him to goose-step and wear a swastika armband, dude. A simple examination of Greenwald's body of work shows him to be an intellectually dishonest, terminal contrarian who spent so long defending Nazis that he became one himself. If you think about it, Hitler killed a lot of Nazis - so I guess you can’t call him one. (No, GG is not as bad as Hitler)
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Mar 30, 2021 19:43
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Back when there was some big flare up over whether the insurrectionists were using zip ties or whatever back in January I tried to read through Glenn's Twitter without logging in. Twitter immediately recommended I check out Bari Weiss, Andy Ngo, Dave Rubin and that one cartoon guy who "thoughtfully" lamented that gays weren't satisfied with being allowed to marry.
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Mar 30, 2021 20:00
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Grammarchist posted:Back when there was some big flare up over whether the insurrectionists were using zip ties or whatever back in January I tried to read through Glenn's Twitter without logging in. Twitter immediately recommended I check out Bari Weiss, Andy Ngo, Dave Rubin and that one cartoon guy who "thoughtfully" lamented that gays weren't satisfied with being allowed to marry.
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Mar 30, 2021 20:06
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FlamingLiberal posted:The Twitter algorithm sees right through him Now to be as fair as possible, its reasonable to assume that the algorithm MIGHT direct us to Fascist Twitter for literally any given starting point, not just Glenn. It certainly works that way on youtube.
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Mar 30, 2021 22:00
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letthereberock posted:If you think about it, Hitler killed a lot of Nazis - so I guess you can’t call him one.
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Mar 30, 2021 23:35
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Dapper_Swindler posted:does he do anything now a days? i know some gamegate gently caress poo poo tried to recruit him for that "documentry" but i think it got cut. i am curious if jack has a twitter. Permanently disbarred with an intensity not regularly used outside of absurdly inappropriate, unrepentant conduct. Around the time Trump got elected, he was futzing about with any job he could still get, which was at the time teaching ethics classes to inmates in the Florida prison system. Can't say I know of anything past that. I only barely remember his era of relevance but it's capped with his absolute defeat and irrelevance.
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Mar 31, 2021 00:05
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https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377066108709183493 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377068213448667139 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377057168025911298 glenn seems to be on a roll tonight.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:54
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sean10mm posted:Greenwald likes fascists unless they inconvenience him personally, because above all else he's an absolute narcissist with no actual principles. This is basically it. The Brazil poo poo impacted him personally so he (rightfully!) treated it as incredibly dire and serious story. He doesn’t live in the US anymore, so things like Trump, the Jan 6 riot, etc. get laughed off as the hysterical cringe succdems being owned. Greenwald is the end stage of the edgy contrarianism you see in some places that’s purportedly leftist, but is honestly just anti-liberal establishment above all else. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 03:01
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Still Dismal posted:This is basically it. The Brazil poo poo impacted him personally so he (rightfully!) treated it as incredibly dire and serious story. He doesn’t live in the US anymore, so things like Trump, the Jan 6 riot, etc. get laughed off as the hysterical cringe succdems being owned. I like to think that even if I were sipping wine on a French vineyard right now I'd have more empathy than a fascist transphobe who's been riding on Edward Snowden's work for years now. Certainly if not that I would have the intellectual honesty to draw a straight line from Bolsonaro to Trump. I don't think a journalist worth a drat would be getting into hourly slapfights on Twitter as it is.
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Mar 31, 2021 04:00
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