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Honestly while I support the idea of Northern Independence (and indies in general) I am more interested in the NIP as a counterpunch to Smithers-style Labour and will be v. interested to see how the Hartlepool by-election explodes.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:23
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If it was just a "gently caress you starmer" vote I would be less ambivalent but I can easily see a bunch of people voting for it for that reason and that catapulting it into being a constant thorn in the side of the left vote for a long time because regardless of the intentions of its leaders (which I still don't trust, for that matter) I don't think it is structurally capable of doing any good for anyone except the people who run it. Also, frankly, the idea of a gently caress you starmer vote being very meaningful is also a bit doubtful cos loving lol if they're gonna change even if the gently caress you starmer party got 100% of the vote. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 02:26
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Tesseraction posted:Honestly while I support the idea of Northern Independence (and indies in general) I am more interested in the NIP as a counterpunch to Smithers-style Labour and will be v. interested to see how the Hartlepool by-election explodes. i think it would be cool to for nip to get on question time in place of ukip. more broadly, the difference between snp and nip is the north of england doesnt have much in the way of devolved powers and it would be interesting to see what they did with them. keen to see whether nip take more of a chunk out of the tories or labour. presumably the tories? cause of the blue wall. the cities are going to stay labour arent they
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Mar 31, 2021 02:36
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CoolCab posted:tankie, there's an ie at the end. Ah you're right boyo, sorry about that! In my defence, the British state has always prioritised the destruction of our language over actually teaching us to read and write proper! That said, I don't think someone who can't distinguish between the ideologies of Mandela and Hitler, or Moralles and Franco, or Guevarra and Trump - just because they both use/d the word 'nationalism' - ought be correcting people on their use of language. quote:if i was trying very hard i don't think i could come up with a more perfect encapsulation of the kind of mind poison you need to chug to hold these perspectives. yes, clearly, my sincere and now decades old antipathy to british imperialism, british nationalism and the british state is in fact a facade so i can genocide welsh people. and no even - spark of cognitive dissonance - like, presumably a bunch of other people would need to drown in such a scenario, you know, myself included, but no it's definitely because of a nation i have never attended in person and have no strong opinions of at all. good lord you're a clown. Woah woah woah there butt, take a deep breath, relax and... Exhale. I believe you. I believe you when you say that when you talk about the UK, when you think about how it should be in the future, not a single braincell goes to waste on Wales. A child with an ounce of awareness would recognise that, should the isle of great britain cease to be, so would the Welsh people. I don't think you yearn for the destruction of my country, I just think you're very British in your attitudes towards us - you forget we exist until we make ourselves known, and then you blame us for your own ignorance. You do have two strong opinions on Wales though, don't lie: 1) Wales should forever and for always remain subjugated beneath the English boot, and 2) Guto Bebb is a Star Wars name.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:44
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in fact I am not so comically ignorant about the four archetypes my brain apparently needs reduce the world into that I didn't bother to learn to spell the slur I was trying to use, in what actually was happening was something something Welsh language something something.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:51
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CoolCab posted:in fact I am not so comically ignorant about the four archetypes my brain apparently needs reduce the world into that I didn't bother to learn to spell the slur I was trying to use, in what actually was happening was something something Welsh language something something. Slur. With an 'l'. gently caress, you edited it.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:52
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the main thing is that electoral reform will never happen in Westminster, because neither Labour nor the Tories actually want PR, and the past decade has shown that we can never trust the Lib Dems with anything, so short of communist revolution (which is equally impossible) the people of this rainy fascist island who want to both keep this country together and make things infinitely better than they have been don't have the power to affect change in any meaningful way. The best hope for the UK as a united kingdom was in 2017. Had Corbyn purged the right, it could have been 2019 too, but either way, we're never having that opportunity again. Yes, the NIP will be SNP-ified in the next decade, as will the other regional independence parties that will inevitably pop up in that time, but such is life. If we were currently in the fourth year of a Corbyn-led majority Labour government and it was looking likely that they'd be reelected in the next year, I would have 100% given up on Scottish independence by now, and I don't doubt that a lot of Yes voters in 2014 would have done the same. As it happens, we're never again going to get a government in Westminster that doesn't want to kill the poor and shag the flag, so Scottish independence, and possibly even Northern independence, is unfortunately the next best thing. Basically, we're in for an incredibly rough decade ahead.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:52
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also I don't yearn for your destruction good lord lmao what are you on about
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Mar 31, 2021 02:53
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CoolCab posted:also I don't yearn for your destruction good lord lmao what are you on about Breath. In. Out. Now read it again. 
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Mar 31, 2021 02:55
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like if it helps I could go find a large canvas on you might project who you would like to argue with directly?
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Mar 31, 2021 02:56
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Neither of those are happening save at the expense of a potential left wing UK wide government, however. Because the right wing governments can just... ignore the issue. It is only an issue for left wingers, so all they can ever hope to do is attack the left wing governments and parties, which is exactly what the SNP did throughout the corbyn years and I see no reason why any hypothetical electorally relevant future NIP would not do the same, because that's how they secure their jobs, is by getting people to view everything through the lens of nationalism. And the fact that virtually nobody in Scotland swapped to labour while corbyn was in power suggests that the strategy works extremely well.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:58
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CoolCab posted:like if it helps I could go find a large canvas on which you might project
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Mar 31, 2021 02:58
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no, i think i prefer my version - yours loses some of the subtly of my statement - that the projection in question is very motivated, and to preserve the sting at the tail - no, i think yours is too wordy to be punchy. and to clarify, again, i don't make a habit of correcting spelling, it's just if i came in here and complained about Nationalistics or faceists i would look very silly given my ideological position. you are painfully desperate for other people to have the same nationalism you do - you come in and went "geeeee it's weird none of you have any objections to the NIP!" implicitly because we are secret nationalists, and when some people challenge that by raising them it proves somehow that we were in fact the other kind of secret nationalist? it's not even internally consistent?
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Mar 31, 2021 03:08
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what is very important, is that talking too much about the NIP proves i want to destroy wales and also, talking too little about the NIP proves i want to destory wales.
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Mar 31, 2021 03:10
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In hindsight, when Corbyn became leader, Labour should have ignored Scotland and focused entirely on England. Scotland's going to elect nationalists, fine, whatever. Kezia can do what she wants and we won't stop her, because Scotland's not a priority. However, if we don't win back England as soon as possible, then the most deprived regions like, say, the North, will do what the SNP did, and it might just work for them. If we want to keep the Union together and especially stop England from balkanising, a Labour majority government needs to make a positive case for the union by lifting those deprived areas from poverty and generally improving the UK as a whole. In doing so, we will outflank the SNP from the left, and the people who voted Yes will put their trust in a Labour government again, and we will win back Holyrood that way. In reality, Corbyn didn't do that, and Kieth is not only not doing that, but he is actively fuelling both the breakup of the Union and especially the balkanisation of England. Labour is absolutely loving useless.
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Mar 31, 2021 03:34
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^^Corbyn was the only person who could have held the UK together. He bottled it.CoolCab posted:no, i think i prefer my version - yours loses some of the subtly of my statement - that the projection in question is very motivated, and to preserve the sting at the tail - no, i think yours is too wordy to be punchy. and to clarify, again, i don't make a habit of correcting spelling, it's just if i came in here and complained about Nationalistics or faceists i would look very silly given my ideological position. Normally when I get into these arguments in this thread, someone (not you or Owlfancier obviously but like... the poster with the grommit avvy? if they still have it? or goddamntwisto maybe?) says something poignant and I have to step back and reevaluate my positions and where they come from. That hasn't happened yet. Because no, I don't think it's ~secret nationalism~ that people are jumping on board the NIP. I think it's disaffected Corbyn-supporters who hosed up their Hence why you're either britnats or tankys. Either you sincerely believe in the ~british state~ and all the injustice it entails OR you want to maintain the existing hierarchies just in case your team ever gets to control them. And you did say that given the chance to eradicate the people in wales you might. That is a thing you said. Your defence - 'I forgot Wales exists in a conversation with a welsh separatist about regional separatism' - isn't as powerful as you think it is. Goddamn Guo Tu could get through it lol
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Mar 31, 2021 03:38
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I'm not sure what ignoring Scotland looks like other than what Corbyn did, scotlab was its own thing, I don't recall any particular interference from labour HQ in that regard, leonard won on his own merits and also shat his own bed subsequently. The issue is that whatever labour might want to do the press, the tories, and the other national parties aren't going to let the issue be ignored, because they trade on making GBS threads on everything that labour and the tories do. Labour did make the case for a UK wide improvement and the miserable old turds in the north said "no thanks we would actually like everything to be worse and also can you do some more racism please" and here we are. Clearly, therefore, what we need to do is make them the entire country.
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Mar 31, 2021 03:42
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Saith posted:Hence why you're either britnats or tankys. Either you sincerely believe in the ~british state~ and all the injustice it entails OR you want to maintain the existing hierarchies just in case your team ever gets to control them. Perhaps, if this can penetrate your brain, I think that there is very little difference between the hierarchy in the UK and any supposed northern nation. None of the national parties are proposing or capable of creating some sort of hierarchy-less society, and I don't think that I have any magical kinship with people in newcastle or leeds or wherever just because they're at a closer latitude than london. Why would they not be just as willing to gently caress me over? We're not proposing to dump all the tories in the sea, so necessarily any nation would have just as many of them in it as it currently does. Perhaps, and I appreciate that this probably is something that just does not parse to you, the problem is not ~*westminster*~ but it is instead ingrained at every level of every part of the country, and changing the flag and redrawing the border will not change the fundamental composition of the people who make up that problem. But selling people the idea that if you do change the flag and move the border that everything will be alright is a very easy lie, and one that will only serve to make any hope of seeing actual useful changes even more scant than it already is.
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Mar 31, 2021 03:48
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Please do not destroy Wales
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Mar 31, 2021 03:48
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Saith posted:^^Corbyn was the only person who could have held the UK together. He bottled it. quote:Because no, I don't think it's ~secret nationalism~ that people are jumping on board the NIP. I think it's disaffected Corbyn-supporters who hosed up their quote:Hence why you're either britnats or tankys. Either you sincerely believe in the ~british state~ and all the injustice it entails OR you want to maintain the existing hierarchies just in case your team ever gets to control them. please read anything about the use of the term "tankie" before reusing it? please? and maybe start engaging your brain even a little - like you're not even justifying yourself, you just reiterate the same "either you're for us or against us" rhetoric with terminology you clearly do not understand. quote:And you did say that given the chance to eradicate the people in wales you might. That is a thing you said. Your defence - 'I forgot Wales exists in a conversation with a welsh separatist about regional separatism' - isn't as powerful as you think it is. Goddamn Guo Tu could get through it lol
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Mar 31, 2021 04:04
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There are two possible political outcomes that I can see as being beneficial, either the world dissolves into some sort of syndicalist utopia in my lifetime, or a government gets elected and actually improves something, anything, about my life. What I don't see is what some weird northern nationalist party has to do with either of those things. Because I live here and I know full well that it is just as full of assholes as anywhere else. What I need is some way to make them shut up and eat poo poo for once in their lives. Yes there are assholes down south, but there are also good people down there too, I keep seeing pictures of them fighting cops in bristol. Twisto posts long posts about cool people and stuff from london (which incidentally I think are probably the biggest factor in me being less of a twat about london than I used to be, hopfully). I would like something that helps me and them somehow team up and get something good for us. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 04:14
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CoolCab posted:then you have developed a profoundlyunhealthy relationship with this thread and you should work on that? what do you want from me? Considering this is like my second time posting in these threads in the past year, I'm gonna have to say you're projecting lol. Good to know you'll stoop to insults around mental illness though.  quote:my...team??? Why are you so defensive over the word tanky?? I get why someone would be insulted for being called a tanky - I mean it as an insult after all but like... Are you a tanky? Is that how you identify? You're giving off some weird vibes here pal. Like the cunts who get upset when you call 'em a fash not because being a fash is bad, but because you're not using the definition of fascism that they identify with. Idk. I assume you don't deny the Xinjiang genocide but I suddenly feel the need to see you confirm it. quote:well, which is it. I can't be both a British nationalist while calling (eagerly and with passion) for the destruction of the British state. my active apathy can't be antipathy one moment, secret fascination another and then both apathy and antipathy at once somehow. I think it's posturing, honestly? Like if you get really loving mad at the thought of x seceding, and whenever it's brought up always defend the supremacy of the british state, you're pretty clearly a britnat. So when you throw out some bullshit about how you hate britain so much you guys uwu, I ignore it for the obvious deflection that it is. Or I would have, if you hadn't stated your desire to maaaybe genocide my country. By accident though. Because you forgot about it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2021 04:41
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Saith posted:Considering this is like my second time posting in these threads in the past year, I'm gonna have to say you're projecting lol. Good to know you'll stoop to insults around mental illness though. quote:
quote:I think it's posturing, honestly? Like if you get really loving mad at the thought of x seceding, and whenever it's brought up always defend the supremacy of the british state, you're pretty clearly a britnat. So when you throw out some bullshit about how you hate britain so much you guys uwu, I ignore it for the obvious deflection that it is. Or I would have, if you hadn't stated your desire to maaaybe genocide my country. By accident though. Because you forgot about it. cite a single example of me "defending the supremacy of the british state", please. and I reiterate - you are, again, in one paragraph, saying "I don't believe you actually would destroy the British state" and also "I can't believe you just said you would destroy the British state" - which is it?
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Mar 31, 2021 04:58
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I don't believe you would, but also, I can't believe you would. no contradiction at all, no tiny glimmer of understanding that you are holding contradicting ideas in your head at once. it's astonishing.
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Mar 31, 2021 05:00
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coolcab working on maintaining his coveted title of Thread's Most Pompous Twit I see (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2021 05:47
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CoolCab posted:nah, I think I've called my shot and I'm sticking to it. your description of your interaction with this thread - as if we existed to dispense wisdom to you (???) is unhealthy, for the community and frankly for you personally, I'm sorry to say. lots of well people engage with unhealthy behaviours and it is, again, a little unhealthy that you take a polite observation about your own observation as an attack on the disabled? you are an odd guy. This explains so much to be honest. Personally, I think it's a sign of mental healthiness when a person, upon encountering an idea that challenges their world-view, accepts it in good faith and takes steps to reconcile their positions with their newer perspective on reality. Keep digging that ableist hole though, baban. quote:cite a single example of me "defending the supremacy of the british state", please. and I reiterate - you are, again, in one paragraph, saying "I don't believe you actually would destroy the British state" and also "I can't believe you just said you would destroy the British state" - which is it? Every single time you argue against x independence, you are implicitly defending the supremacy of the british state, the same way that anytime a person argues against socialism they are implicitly defending the supremacy of the bourgeoisie. I don't believe you would destroy the British state, considering you're the most vocal advocate ITT for its continued existence. Obviously. But you didn't even say you would do such a thing. You said you [i]might[/b] kill everyone in great britain, if given the magic button, and now you're trying to walk it back. And honestly, that's your prerogative. I was pointing out how, in your haste to distance yourself from the Britnat label, you did the Britnat thing of forgetting wales exists in such a way that would have disastrous effects on wales. In this instance, it was an easy dunk considering said disastrous effects would be the genocide of my country. And please, if you would, copy and paste these words: 'The Chinese Communist Party is currently waging a genocidal campaign against the Uyghur muslims in Xinjiang'.
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Mar 31, 2021 05:48
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Saith posted:This explains so much to be honest. Personally, I think it's a sign of mental healthiness when a person, upon encountering an idea that challenges their world-view, accepts it in good faith and takes steps to reconcile their positions with their newer perspective on reality. Keep digging that ableist hole though, baban. quote:Every single time you argue against x independence, you are implicitly defending the supremacy of the british state, the same way that anytime a person argues against socialism they are implicitly defending the supremacy of the bourgeoisie. quote:I don't believe you would destroy the British state, considering you're the most vocal advocate ITT for its continued existence. Obviously. But you didn't even say you would do such a thing. You said you might kill everyone in great britain, if given the magic button, and now you're trying to walk it back. quote:And honestly, that's your prerogative. I was pointing out how, in your haste to distance yourself from the Britnat label, you did the Britnat thing of forgetting wales exists in such a way that would have disastrous effects on wales. In this instance, it was an easy dunk considering said disastrous effects would be the genocide of my country. I did not forget the existence of Wales loving what? lol quote:And please, if you would, copy and paste these words: 'The Chinese Communist Party is currently waging a genocidal campaign against the Uyghur muslims in Xinjiang'. they said DnD was getting bad but Jesus Christ.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:08
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here are some positions I have held in your head today: tankie, fascist, anarchist, CCP stooge, British nationalist, English nationalist, northern England nationalist, radical anti-Welsh partisan, ablest, racist, and pompous, which stings most of all. e: genocidal, genocide denialist
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Mar 31, 2021 06:14
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I live in a constituency that has never in my lifetime returned a Tory MP, in a region that in my life has never returned a Tory MP (well, Danny Alexander...), in a country that has never in my 36 years returned a majority of Tory MPs. And yet here I am, having spent 2/3rd of it with Tory governments. Britannia delenda est
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Mar 31, 2021 06:19
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nothing good is ever going to happen, the world is going to mostly die and a few lucky ones will be enserfed to maintain the billionaire compounds, all that remains is to laugh at the maximum chaos that occurs on the way to oblivion.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:21
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i find this thread almost as baffling as the moon-language hinterlands of Auspol and Finnpol, but I would appreciate it if you people - or 'chaps', i am told you prefer, despite being a sort of pant - would settle down a bit
Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 06:32
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i find this thread almost as baffling as the moon-language hinterlands of Auspol and Finnpol, but I would appreciate it if you people - or 'chaps', i am told you prefer, despite being a sort of pant - would settle down a bit Just closing the thread every night between midnight and 5am should eliminate the worst of the posting imo. Seeing that new race relations report has really brought it home to me just how brazen the Tories are getting. They've been going further and further, first bemused, then delighted to find that they're getting no pushback whatever from Labour and they must now be asking whether there's nothing they can't get away with. I've got no doubts that Starmer's failure to offer any sort of opposition has hugely contributed to the current gloating self-confidence of the Tories. Starmer delenda est.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:45
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Mar 31, 2021 07:00
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I have no loving idea what coolcab and saith are going on about and that's after I've read their posts.
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Mar 31, 2021 07:09
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It honestly might benefit this thread if the old rule of no posting while intoxicated was brought back and enforced. The worst of the abrasive, incoherent posting always seems to occur during the small hours.
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Mar 31, 2021 07:27
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UKMT night crew: should we destroy Wales??
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Mar 31, 2021 07:28
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how is half 7 in the morning night crew
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Mar 31, 2021 07:37
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Ms Adequate posted:nothing good is ever going to happen 
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Mar 31, 2021 07:44
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Saith posted:I like the NIP! I think it's cool! It's totally good and smart to like the NIP! ... did a lot of the left decry them? I don’t think I saw that much, I’ve always been in favour of Scottish independence and so do others (or at least, the ones I follow on Twitter). Unless you mean the soft left who just want Scotland to start voting Labour again?
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Mar 31, 2021 07:45
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mrpwase posted:UKMT night crew: should we destroy Wales?? No because they'd all come to Bristol to take Arr Jobs 
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Mar 31, 2021 07:48
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