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paranoid randroid posted:why arent you forcing biden left. we have to be as mad as we were when that Sex Pest Austerity Freak Segregationist got the nom, so let me see you war face I don't think I understand is there some "concentration camp" meter that once we say it enough it fills up Biden passes full communism now? Why is using this one term in this one way the only way forward?
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Mar 31, 2021 07:07
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:How does rageposting on a dying forum push Biden left? how does defending him make his policy good
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Mar 31, 2021 07:07
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paranoid randroid posted:how does defending him make his policy good Who here is defending him?
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Mar 31, 2021 07:08
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as an honest poster ill admit im very drunk right now so in the interest of full disclosure please slap me with the relevant probation, because i am behaving like an rear end in a top hat (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 07:11
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:[1] Nazis killed millions of people in gas chambers and cremated their bodies in ovens that were specifically designed for that purpose, and spent a lot of time and energy making that funnel as efficient as possible so that they could kill more people faster. Point [2] does not follow from point [1]. It would be incorrect on both counts to say that 1. The Japanese internment camps were not concentration camps. 2. Naming them as such is unacceptably disrespectful to victims of nazi extermination camps and such usage ought be prevented. NYTimes posted:Cooling a debate about using ''concentration camps'' in the title of an exhibition about the incarceration of Japanese-Americans in World War II, curators of the show and their critics agreed yesterday to display a prominent footnote to explain the term's origins and its shades of meaning. I'm curious if you have a particular distinction in mind for the migrant camps. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 07:13
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i have things id like to say but they would just get even dumber than they were anyway, so i reiterate i probably agree with you all but i am also a tremendous moron
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Mar 31, 2021 07:13
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BougieBitch posted:I mean, your examples are yourself (with financial backing, an in-demand degree, and a specifically desirable skill, as well as an acceptance letter from an institution) and a friend with a PhD - that's not exactly a standard situation. I think it's fair to say that if the average person from South America, or even the US, tried to immigrate to France they would be summarily denied, and whether the rules are more or less stringent for specific highly-skilled laborers is really incidental to the general thrust of what I was saying. As lovely as the US is, the biggest reason that it is even a conversation people have is because there is such a degree of economic disparity between (parts of) South and Central America and the United States, and the existence of a land route makes it possible for refugees to knock on our doors. In contrast, France could never HAVE this sort of border crisis because it is surrounded on all sides by other EU countries, so they don't have to worry about conditions of refugee camps or anything like that. You make a lot of assumptions (I have a degree, I had financial backing, I had an acceptance letter from a university, i'm not from the US) in your attempt to prove that immigration to france is just as hard as to the US. I know people from south america who've immigrated here with better immigration status than they could get in america. A person like me trying to migrate to the US would've been rejected out of hand, and a degree would've just landed me an H1B visa (which is way worse than a work visa in france). As for the rest of what you posted, the US's "desirability" is not an excuse for its draconian policies. Concentration camps for asylum seekers is unconscionable and that poo poo needs to end immediately.
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Mar 31, 2021 07:59
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are the weimar-era camps for eastern european refugees in the same category as i.c.e. facilities? they had the same purpose. does the fact the same sites became nazi concentration camps change that categorisation? if so, why? the only coherent approach is to put all these examples in the same category: places to detain unwanted groups of people on the other side of a border, creating the capacity for rights to be suspended and power exercised beyond its normal limits. the difference is the extent to which those who police the camps exercise that power.
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Mar 31, 2021 10:31
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Personally, if concentration camps can't be called concentration camps until after they've resulted in obscene casualties, then they're pretty well insulated rhetorically from attempts to prevent them from becoming concentration camps.
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Mar 31, 2021 10:35
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Condiv posted:You make a lot of assumptions (I have a degree, I had financial backing, I had an acceptance letter from a university, i'm not from the US) in your attempt to prove that immigration to france is just as hard as to the US. I know people from south america who've immigrated here with better immigration status than they could get in america. A person like me trying to migrate to the US would've been rejected out of hand, and a degree would've just landed me an H1B visa (which is way worse than a work visa in france). You are making an apples and orange comparison - the EU has refugee camps for people that don't get in via the "skilled worker" system that you are talking about. Guess what - not only are they lovely tent cities, the largest one literally caught fire just last year, and this situation has been going on for ages! https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54082201 France gets to keep its hands clean because it outsources the unpleasant business of actually handling refugees in person to the countries in the EU that act as a buffer zone. Debatably, the same has happened with Mexico and the US- but that's my point. The EU is not some shining beacon for good immigration policy, it's just another group of racist white people who are trying to get off the hook by putting the US under a microscope - if you aren't from the US and you are living in France, your opinion is entirely constructed from second-hand accounts, and at least some of those are going to be reported by vultures with political motivations. Considering the current political climate in France creating a popular perception of "brown people encroaching on white countries" is clearly beneficial to Le Pen's party. Similarly, in the US the Fox News machine has every reason to portray Biden's work in the most negative light and wrap it around his neck when possible, but it's as backwards as the people that say Obama's response to Katrina was inadequate or say that Obama caused the Great Recession. It has still only been 2 months since Biden took office, and while I am EXTREMELY unsatisfied with the current progress in improving conditions, this entire situation is the result of 4 years of Trump moreso than 2 months of Biden, just like our current coronavirus situation or any of the other numerous crises playing out in real time. All that said, yes we can and should fault Biden for his policy failures, but just because Trump is out of office doesn't mean his impact went away - he is survived by his admin's terrible policies, the judges he appointed, and the assorted congresspeople that supported his goal of reducing legal immigration to 0 and deliberately abusing the undocumented population. The timeline to fix the damage caused was never going to be 2 months (or even a year), so we need to temper our expectations accordingly while we continue to shout at him in public to do it better and faster. I've spent the last couple months working with a charity to help support a local undocumented population, and I encourage anyone else to do the same - even if Bernie was in office instead of Biden, it would still require people on the ground to organize and create resources in their local communities. Ghost Leviathan posted:And do NOT get me started on Australia. Christ, yeah, or Japan and their weird xenophobic garbage, or China and their *gestures wildly*. Point being, I 100% stand by my original statement that no country has a sane immigration policy that we could emulate in fixing the US's garbage, we have to create a better policy from scratch because if you think the US has concentration camps, I have bad news for you about China and Australia (Edited to add the paragraph about the media environment that is reporting on this and the paragraph about how you can help make changes from the ground up). BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 12:23
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And do NOT get me started on Australia.
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Mar 31, 2021 12:29
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BougieBitch posted:You are making an apples and orange comparison It's always going to be this way. You made the claim that the immigration to europe from US is about as hard as immigration to the US from other countries. I have pointed out that that's not true. I did not get in initially via a "skilled worker" system, but rather through the student system, and I transitioned from being a student in a private language course to a student at a university to a worker. This route doesn't really exist in the same way in the US (apples vs oranges), but the path from graduating from a US university to becoming a US worker with a greencard is way harder than it is in France.
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Mar 31, 2021 13:02
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I know several people who have had to deal with immigration in Europe, Canada, and the US, and US is definitely the worst of the bunch. Sure, everyone post their anecdotes or not even that, just some summary of nebulous experiences and emotions of others. One issue with this thread is that it's covering two very different things under the same name, which are the situation of refugees, and to a much lesser extent, maybe 0.2% of the posts, that of (for lack of a better word, no judgment) "conventional" immigrants. On the latter subject, in order to not just have a free-for-all, I'd be interested in some kind of empirical study or similar on how easy different countries are to immigrate into, by categories of immigration (work, money, family and others). It seems to me that the US is always under the microscope while other countries whose whole system is crap (e.g. Switzerland) never get mentioned at all. Good luck getting Japanese citizenship!
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Mar 31, 2021 13:46
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:With all due respect, you asked me why I thought they aren't concentration camps, I provided a citation in the form of an encyclopedic resource that explains very clearly and relatively concisely the actual distinction between a concentration camp and other types of camps such as refugee centers. Posting a definition of a term is not an "appeal to authority." Terms don't suddenly change their meaning based on people's opinions. If they were concentration camps under Trump they’re concentration camps now.
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Mar 31, 2021 13:47
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Nucleic Acids posted:If they were concentration camps under Trump they’re concentration camps now. This really is the crux of it here. We're not discovering the situation at our southern border for the first time with fresh eyes. These idiotic conversations about if they should be called something other than concentration camps (no) or that calling them what they are somehow disrespects the memories of people who died in concentration camps (also no) are as disgusting as they are worthless. All of the people -- not just here, not just in D&D, but everywhere -- who suddenly decided that we have to take a hard look at terminology and well gosh he's trying his best you know, and intentions matter were calling them concentration camps when the friggin orange friggin cheeto mussolini was in the friggin white house with his gay boyfriend friggin vlad putin!! Ah, but now it's the guy I voted for who is in there, and as well all know, if I voted for him he must be good. I'm a good person! I can't vote, and therefore be responsible for (because I've invested my vote with the totality of my political action) for bad things. That's what Republicans do, and god knows I am not one of those! I always vote for the good, pragmatic choice. Therefore, if I vote, the guy I vote for makes the good, pragmatic choice. If it seems like it's the horrendously evil cruelty-is-the-point business as usual, that's wrong and you're mistaken: it's the good, pragmatic thing to do. I should know, I voted for it! I think everyone saw this coming, but it's still appalling to see the people that had promised us, hand to heart, over and over that as soon as Biden got elected they're going to be pushing him from the left congratulate this guy for being a bold visionary and "one of the top five presidents ever" despite a straight, unbroken line between Trump's immigration policy (among many others) and Biden's. Oh but he said some good words about his Deep Concern or whatever so it's fine, them kids gotta toughen up. What else could we do, kick them out on the streets?!? What's your big idea to fix it then?! We're Building Back Better. America is becoming great again. I'm interested in having a conversation about US Immigration Policy, but not about what's actually going on in this thread: the people who invest general election votes with the entirety of their political action arguing to themselves that their decision was correct and unimpeachable. Under Trump they were obviously concentration camps, because Trump is evil and the MAGA CHUDs who voted for him are evil, and these camps are their responsibility. Now Joe is in and the good, correct Democrats that voted for him have to take responsibility for the camps and now -- surprise surprise -- they're not concentration camps anymore! This isn't a discussion, this is watching a handful of losers try to convince themselves everything is okay and everyone else is lying.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:21
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I think the discussion about whether the term "concentration camps" is appropriate is all well and good - I personally think that these are concentration camps even if they don't meet the criteria (yet) for Nazi death camps. With that said, it does seem notable that the border camps have been called concentration camps pretty consistently over the last few years and it's only since the new president's inauguration that people seem to take issue with that name. In USPOL where this discussion is disallowed, there was a user arguing "They're not concentration camps" who happily called them concentration camps in March 2020 to dunk on Bernie voters who didn't want to vote for Biden. I would ask anyone making the "They're not concentration camps" argument - did you feel this way about these same camps before Biden was inaugurated? And did you make as vehement an argument then? Can you cite posts? I think that many people now vehemently arguing they're not concentration camps, for reasons like "they don't detain people indefinitely" very recently, under the last president, were very happy to call them concentration camps, for example: GreyjoyBastard posted:The central quirk of our immigrant concentration camps is that the people in them cannot be held after they get a binding immigration ruling, either the good one or the bad one. They're not held indefinitely, which means the pressures are different and less than in the permanent or permanent-ish historical cases. In Vietnam, and the Philippines, and South Africa, and the Japanese internment camps, and the more-or-less best-case colonial-Malaya, they were holding people during a violent insurgency of unknown length; in Nazi Germany et al, the objective was (as it is here) to make the residents Go Away, but deportation proved entirely non-feasible. In both sets, there wasn't an out for "well I guess we'll release them back into the country". the 2016 lover fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 14:25
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:This really is the crux of it here. This post is absolutely ridiculous.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:36
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the 2016 lover posted:I think the discussion about whether the term "concentration camps" is appropriate is all well and good - I personally think that these are concentration camps even if they don't meet the criteria (yet) for Nazi death camps. With that said, it does seem notable that the border camps have been called concentration camps pretty consistently over the last few years and it's only since the new president's inauguration that people seem to take issue with that name. In USPOL where this discussion is disallowed, there was a user arguing "They're not concentration camps" who happily called them concentration camps in March 2020 to dunk on Bernie voters who didn't want to vote for Biden. I would ask anyone making the "They're not concentration camps" argument - did you feel this way about these same camps before Biden was inaugurated? And did you make as vehement an argument then? Can you cite posts? no i am not going to compose an essay about what d&d posters think about the camps, complete with citations, because i don't really give a poo poo about meta-discussions and instead would like to discuss the issue at hand (i also don't really care what people call them). but if your contribution to this topic is to scream about how people refer to the camps, instead of how to solve problems or immigration on any level, then may i politely suggest that you don't seem to actually care about the issue. just imagine if you put the energy you waste on trying to treasure hunt for logical inconsistencies amongst political posters on a dying forum towards, like, anything else (may I suggestl earning to knit?) how about a new thread rule: for every obnoxious post attempting to examine some dumb meta-narrative about the camps that solely exists in a dying webforum you have to donate to an immigration charity. ill get us started [  so now can we back to discussing the loving issue at hand?
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Mar 31, 2021 14:38
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Solkanar512 posted:This post is absolutely ridiculous. Well so is looking at the camps on the border and whining and gnashing about the mean name that people are calling them but hey here we are.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:39
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Aruan posted:no i am not going to compose an essay about what d&d posters think about the camps, complete with citations, because i don't really give a poo poo about meta-discussions and instead would like to discuss the issue at hand (i also don't really care what people call them). but if your contribution to this topic is to scream about how people refer to the camps, instead of how to solve problems or immigration on any level, then may i politely suggest that you don't seem to actually care about the issue. just imagine if you put the energy you waste on trying to treasure hunt for logical inconsistencies amongst political posters on a dying forum towards, like, anything else (may I suggestl earning to knit?) Personally, I don't think any posts on this webforum are going to effect real world politics or policy in any way, it's really silly to think otherwise. I think this line of argument about how political discussion is kind of a waste of time for the debate subforum, where we are simply.... wait for it.... debating. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) the 2016 lover fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 14:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:And yeah, I know several people who have had to deal with immigration in Europe, Canada, and the US, and US is definitely the worst of the bunch. Post-Brexit UK is angling to contend, of course. This is emphatically - ridiculously so - untrue except possibly for Germany and Sweden during that 1-2 year window when the two countries took in everyone who managed to make it to the border, now long since dead as a policy in both states. Canada's immigration and border agencies are less...punitive than the US, but their immigration model itself is a points system, and good luck getting into the country as a 50 year old with a 30 year old DUI offense. Nevertheless, they likely have the best and most humane system in the world, because Europe's is a dumpster fire even in the countries that have an immigration policy of > 0 migrants at all. In the UK, asylum seekers are not allowed to work and -sometimes- receive roughly 5 pounds a week to buy food on, which can last for several years while their case crawls through a Home Office system that loves to find their claims credible and then reject them anyway - and this was the case long before Brexit. France has its share of "migrant camps", notably in Calais where the UK and France have jointly decided to dump migrants who still want to make it to the UK for whatever reason; everyone knows that the UK will never admit any of them but the pretense has to be kept up, so the migrants keep hopping on trucks going into the Tunnel (and then being run over to death or caught by the police and their guard dogs and then dragged back) while the local cops occasionally go through the "illegal encampments" and use water hoses to clear out the migrants and their only property. Italy and Greece, of course, simply dump most of their migrants onto whatever islands are most convenient, occasionally tell the Red Cross how many of them there are and then ignore them for as long as possible (so far it's been five years). Spain has a set of islands off the coast of Africa and two enclaves on Moroccan soil to worry about, so they have a border patrol straight out of Stephen Miller's wet dreams. And then there's Eastern Europe. The US system is arguably the second best in the world simply because *it exists* and we are back to actively taking in and attempting to legalize unaccompanied minors. This tiny shred of compassion is already enough for a top 5 world ranking at minimum. It's very, very bad out there.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:42
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the 2016 lover posted:Personally, I don't think any posts on this webforum are going to effect real world politics or policy in any way, it's really silly to think otherwise. I think this line of argument about how political discussion is kind of a waste of time for the debate subforum, where we are simply.... wait for it.... debating. did you really just edit my name to “Aryan” lol
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Mar 31, 2021 14:43
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Solkanar512 posted:This post is absolutely ridiculous. No, I’d say it’s on point.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:44
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Solkanar512 posted:This post is absolutely ridiculous. I happen to disagree!
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Mar 31, 2021 14:46
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I also think people in general don’t realize how abjectly horrific and inhuman refugee camps if you think refugee camps is somehow a positive term.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:52
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I happen to disagree! You and others are just looking to force others to deal with constant toxic aggro posting. I certainly didn’t do a single thing in that multi paragraph temper tantrum and the fact you didn’t quote anyone else leaves me to believe that no one else did either. The aggro poo poo has to stop. The constant screaming has to stop. The bullying has to stop. It’s toxic as gently caress and the rest of us don’t have to put up with it.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:53
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Solkanar512 posted:You and others are just looking to force others to deal with constant toxic aggro posting. I certainly didn’t do a single thing in that multi paragraph temper tantrum and the fact you didn’t quote anyone else leaves me to believe that no one else did either. I'm not going to go through anyone's pre-election posts (because that constitutes "helldumping" here and I will eat a probation for it), but search works and a search for "concentration camps" in Debate and Discussion would reveal to you exactly what I describe happening with many of the posters ITT and elsewhere who are suddenly very concerned about calling something a concentration camp under the Biden administration. Also are you sure that I'm doing "toxic aggro bullying" or saying something that makes you uncomfortable because I am putting words to feelings you'd really rather not admit to yourself? I get it -- I once built my political identity around being a Blue Team Voter too! e: I should admit, in the interests of clarity, I'm not just considering what has gone on ITT but in the USPol thread as well seeing as this thread was spun off of it specifically to contain these discussions.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:01
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I'm not going to go through anyone's pre-election posts (because that constitutes "helldumping" here and I will eat a probation for it), but search works and a search for "concentration camps" in Debate and Discussion would reveal to you exactly what I describe happening with many of the posters ITT and elsewhere who are suddenly very concerned about calling something a concentration camp under the Biden administration. why do you give a poo poo
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Mar 31, 2021 15:06
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Aruan posted:why do you give a poo poo I think it's bad when people apologize for concentration camps because they became interested in politics instead of sports and their team won this time  I think in a good discussion space these people would not be tolerated because they, not "aggro bullying", are what's actually toxic to the discussion
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Mar 31, 2021 15:09
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Nazis killed millions of people in gas chambers and cremated their bodies in ovens that were specifically designed for that purpose, and spent a lot of time and energy making that funnel as efficient as possible so that they could kill more people faster. This would be relevant if people were calling the camps at the southern border "extermination camps" or "death camps," but no one is. They're calling them "concentration camps," which is wholly appropriate. A square can be a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares. My point was that a lot of people see no issue in calling ICE/CBP agents "Nazis," but then say that using the term "concentration camp" to describe the camps they run, where human beings of a specific ethnicity are concentrated, is drawing inappropriate historical parallels.This argument is exactly backwards: "Nazi" has a specific historical meaning, while "concentration camps" pre and post-date the Holocaust.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:25
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Solkanar512 posted:You and others are just looking to force others to deal with constant toxic aggro posting. I certainly didn’t do a single thing in that multi paragraph temper tantrum and the fact you didn’t quote anyone else leaves me to believe that no one else did either. Nobody is loving bullying you Jesus Christ. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2021 15:26
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IK Hat on I'm not really sure I see the meaningful contribution to the discussion of US Immigration Policy by mentioning that your search feature works and that you too, can see what people previously said about this threads stated topic. People's views can change and as long as no one is being exceptionally bad faith about it, I don't see what it adds to the discussion aside from stirring up poo poo. Either engage with what people have said in here or don't bother. Also knock it off with the meta posting and bullying chat. If someone else cries about bullying in this thread, I will give you a e-swirly, also known as a sixer. Thanks!
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Mar 31, 2021 15:36
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Cool, so now that we can talk about actual immigration policy, is there someone who’s actually willing to explain what a good policy should look like and possible ways to get there? I’m certainly not an expert at the matter. How does this system get unfucked in the short term?
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Mar 31, 2021 17:18
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Solkanar512 posted:Cool, so now that we can talk about actual immigration policy, is there someone who’s actually willing to explain what a good policy should look like and possible ways to get there? I’m certainly not an expert at the matter. How does this system get unfucked in the short term? Close the camps, release everyone.
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Mar 31, 2021 17:25
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Reality Protester posted:Close the camps, release everyone. You want refugees released into the Texas desert?
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Mar 31, 2021 17:30
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question. Where are the refugees, geographically speaking, when they are released from detention or whatever. i just assume they are kind of released into the desert and they have to pay for a ride out of there if they want one.
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Mar 31, 2021 17:33
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:You want refugees released into the Texas desert? You're not really this loving retarded, are you? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2021 17:50
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:You want refugees released into the Texas desert? This is disingenuous and you drat well know so.
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Mar 31, 2021 17:54
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:You want refugees released into the Texas desert? does this constitute "good faith discussion"?
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Mar 31, 2021 17:55
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This happens every time releasing the refugees is brought up. "Let's release them" "OH YOU WANT THEM TO JUST WANDER AROUND IN THE DESERT???" That argument is not in good faith, it's disingenuous, and it's used to incite anger and shut down further discussion.
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Mar 31, 2021 17:57
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