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TheCenturion posted:Honestly, just look at actual scientists from the 1890s to the 1960s, and you've got SoE. Yeah, the problem with that is that by looking at actual scientists from the 1890s to the 1960s you also get: "By analyzing the slope of the skull and the prominence of the occipital ridge, I can conclusively demonstrate that the Jew is inherently untrustworthy and prone to criminality and conspiracy!" "Watch as I produce the ultimate human--by forcibly sterilizing the genetically inferior!" "Behold! By poking an icepick into this woman's orbital socket, I have cured her mental issues which were obviously caused by her rampaging uterus! "By reconstructing the Mysteries of the Ancients(TM), I have hereby demonstrated that the White Race(TM) are evidently the most highly-evolved examples of humanity and it is our right to rule the world!" Excising the massive racism, sexism, ableism, and drat near every other kind of "ism" from the SoE is.... kind of the point of trying to reimagine them.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:58
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The atomic bomb is a really bad example because it was theoretically possible for a long time before anyone did it, and the way it was done was a huge industrialized scientific effort under the control of a careful bureaucracy for the aims of national military victory. Individual genius is often overstated in science, and the Manhattan Project was a particularly collaborative, industrialized endeavor. Atomic fission, and the Manhattan Project in particular, was also the terrifying culmination of the development of a programmatic science called, in Hist of Sci, 'Big Science' which would go on to define the postwar scientific context. You could argue that the Technocracy ought to consider the detonation of the atom bomb as the point at which their paradigm was absolutely triumphant and created geological modernity. Similarly, Gernsback's hypothetical description of radar in an SF serial before its invention is Etherite; the American wartime effort producing and deploying radar as part of its military-industrial-scientific project is Technocracy through and through.
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Mar 31, 2021 16:09
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Which one's the Tycho Brahe tradition?
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Mar 31, 2021 16:20
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GimpInBlack posted:Yeah, the problem with that is that by looking at actual scientists from the 1890s to the 1960s you also get: I think the advantage of Loomer's schema is that it makes it simpler for the Etherites to make it clear that what possibilities get made into reality is a political decision and that scientific schema like phrenology, or, hell, infinite energy, are driven by ideology.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:57
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Speaking of, Hedy Lamarr should be a historical Etherite.
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Mar 31, 2021 19:00
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Rand Brittain posted:I think the advantage of Loomer's schema is that it makes it simpler for the Etherites to make it clear that what possibilities get made into reality is a political decision and that scientific schema like phrenology, or, hell, infinite energy, are driven by ideology. So if Archscientist Calvin Candie gets 9 successes on a Life/Mind effect based on phrenology... is phrenology now... true? And if phrenology is objectively untrue - in other words, an effect built around it might "succeed" due to mage hubris and raw power but would always be Vulgar - why was it widely believed in? Loomer's concept removes, in my view, most of this, without the "reasonable but less than parsimonious" narrative statement of "the Etherites never got into the explicitly bad stuff."
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Mar 31, 2021 19:53
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Nessus posted:My own feeling is that the reason this poo poo sticks to the Etherites in particular is that, first, Ascension already has the problem that the mutability of the Consensus suggests that with enough political activity, you could literally make racism or sexism true, and second, that if the Etherites are cast as the defenders of the road not taken, that road includes phrenology, eugenics and so on. The Etherites also are heavily associated with a steampunk aesthetic which already does not speak of an egalitarian approach to politics, and the historicity that is a large part of the World of Darkness's general appeal plays against you, because if you had an Etherite phrenologist who had survived to the modern day due to a powerful ray gun and a very successful immortality treatment, that guy is still, like, able to do magick. I think pretty much any plan to fix Ascension has to start with some version of "for the love of the Oracles, nail down what Consensus does and does not do."
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Mar 31, 2021 19:58
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Rand Brittain posted:I think pretty much any plan to fix Ascension has to start with some version of "for the love of the Oracles, nail down what Consensus does and does not do."
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Mar 31, 2021 20:04
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Nessus posted:My own feeling is that the reason this poo poo sticks to the Etherites in particular is that, first, Ascension already has the problem that the mutability of the Consensus suggests that with enough political activity, you could literally make racism or sexism true, and second, that if the Etherites are cast as the defenders of the road not taken, that road includes phrenology, eugenics and so on. The Etherites also are heavily associated with a steampunk aesthetic which already does not speak of an egalitarian approach to politics, and the historicity that is a large part of the World of Darkness's general appeal plays against you, because if you had an Etherite phrenologist who had survived to the modern day due to a powerful ray gun and a very successful immortality treatment, that guy is still, like, able to do magick. It's important to understand the consensus as describing widely-validated social constructs, not actual laws of physics. That is to say, political activity has already made racism true, in that people of color have worse social outcomes than whites, because of generational wealth inequality, imperial plunder, a regime of racially-targeted police violence, etc. The consensus doesn't actually change what your "IQ" or "time preference" is; rather, "IQ" and "time preference" are ideological fakery, the incantations that grand wizards speak while they wave their hands around to cast their spells.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:24
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Ferrinus posted:It's important to understand the consensus as describing widely-validated social constructs, not actual laws of physics. What's the widely-validated social construct that isn't actual laws of physics of dragons being around?
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Mar 31, 2021 21:06
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LatwPIAT posted:What's the widely-validated social construct that isn't actual laws of physics of dragons being around? Same as the widely-validated social construct that isn't actual laws of physics of dodos being around.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:10
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Ferrinus posted:It's important to understand the consensus as describing widely-validated social constructs, not actual laws of physics. That is to say, political activity has already made racism true, in that people of color have worse social outcomes than whites, because of generational wealth inequality, imperial plunder, a regime of racially-targeted police violence, etc. The consensus doesn't actually change what your "IQ" or "time preference" is; rather, "IQ" and "time preference" are ideological fakery, the incantations that grand wizards speak while they wave their hands around to cast their spells. Some truly astounding red text/post synergy here.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:13
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Tulul posted:Some truly astounding red text/post synergy here.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:16
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Tulul posted:Some truly astounding red text/post synergy here. Are you standing up for the idea that the Consensus directly adds wrinkles to white people's brains or something?
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Mar 31, 2021 21:19
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I'm legit unsure if you're trying to describe actual reality in which we all reside, or the secondary reality in Mage: the Ascension. I'm talking about the secondary reality of Mage: the Ascension. In that secondary reality, the presented material strongly suggests that if you convince enough people that something is true, it becomes actually true, and therefore it is suggested that if racist scientific theories were "proved" in the past, or were part of the consensus paradigm, they were "actually" true at that time, and later, stopped being true. This is arguably a flaw and an incoherence at the center of Mage: The Ascension, although it seems straightforward to navigate around.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:32
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I'm talking about both, and in particular I'm talking about exactly the problem you describe there: that certain readings of the consensus imply that, if enough people believe it, racism becomes "true", i.e. the collective will of the masses just drains away the morals and intellect of non-Europeans, all the historical evidence of African or Middle Eastern civilization gets deleted from history as if by the Exarchs, etc. My point is that this can't possibly be how the consensus works because A) it's vile and B) it doesn't make practical or logical sense. There are cosmological constants and a basic human condition in the setting of Mage that precedes any paradigm or consensus, starting with basic stuff like "objects fall to the ground when dropped" and "it is warmer and brighter in daytime than in night-time" but also including more magical or setting-specific stuff like "vampires exist" or "humans have Avatars that allow them to do magic". I flatly don't think the basic physical or supernatural parameters of human existence are subject to the Consensus in this way, both because it creates weird logical problems and also because it fails to comport with what the Consensus actually thematically represents, which is the constraints and effects of real-world social consensus and ideology. Generally, the Consensus should be understood to effect not people themselves, not what kinds of things people encounter in their day-to-day lives and, more importantly, what kinds of actions and social arrangements allow people to change their environments. People get sick. But what actually causes you to get sick, and what cures you from being sick? It's that second part where the Consensus comes in, because if sickness comes from bad feng shui rather than from microbes, then the cure for sickness also differs. So, modern capitalist society is deeply racist, and therefore race and racism are part of the Consensus. What that controls, though, is not who's inherently "smart" enough to do math problems correctly, but who gets to live in a school district with well-trained, well-paid math teachers and reasonable class sizes. In Mage, this manifests in more overtly magical ways because it's actually the NWO or It-X that's sorcerously giving you asthma or whatever, but the same principle applies.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:48
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...and how does that square with changing the Consensus literally involving killing off dragons permanently, physical theories like aether being debated and decided in terms of actual physical truth, and so on?
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Mar 31, 2021 22:02
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Mors Rattus posted:...and how does that square with changing the Consensus literally involving killing off dragons permanently, physical theories like aether being debated and decided in terms of actual physical truth, and so on? Sounds like the dragons should have thought they existed more.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:03
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I'm pretty sure the idea of Etherites applying the scientific method to magic was in the Revised tradbook, which I thought was a pretty good update to the group.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:03
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I think even having consensus magic, as opposed to 'magic operates on a set of parallel physics that normal physics is unable to even measure without proper enlightenment,' is both antithetical to playing a game and hearing satisfactory explanations.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:04
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Oh, that's fair then. Your outline makes sense, it is just not something directly and explicitly present inside of Mage (to my knowledge), and, perhaps, not the - heh heh - CONSENSUS of fan analysis or engagement with the game's setting. nofather posted:Sounds like the dragons should have thought they existed more. Of course you also get the complex embedded concept of "dragons" but that is its own kettle of dragons. Nessus fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 22:05
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Mors Rattus posted:...and how does that square with changing the Consensus literally involving killing off dragons permanently, physical theories like aether being debated and decided in terms of actual physical truth, and so on? Like I said, that's similar to "the Consensus" killing off dodos. In real life, we killed off dodos. But, to be slightly more abstract but still unimpeachably true, we as humans created an environment that was fundamentally inhospitable to the continued existence of dodos, so no more dodos. Dragon extinction works the same way. The Consensus shapes the environment around us to basically the same extent that we can shape it deliberately, but it doesn't change the basic human condition. Obviously, in Mage it actually happens by magic and dragons just sort of sadly fade away, their corpses shifting into either dinosaur fossils or rock formations, but the principle's the same. When it comes to discredited theories like the aether (or, you know, all of Hermetic magic), it's much easier to grasp. These things are never about direct, obvious things we can see, grasp, and interact with - they're always post-hoc explanations for the phenomena we do see which themselves are rarefied or invisible somehow. When the aether falls out of the Consensus, that has the practical effect that certain silly-looking machines stop working, but other differently-silly-looking machines start working. Same reason an injection from a syringe will inoculate you against a disease while wearing an amulet with a certain rune carved on it won't - both deal with a basic, easily-observed physical reality (sickness vs. health), both purport to control it using invisible means (healing magic vs. antibodies), only one is effective because of prevailing social relations.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:13
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nofather posted:Sounds like the dragons should have thought they existed more. Missed this before but 1) lol and 2) Glorantha kind of has a weird version of this - there's an extent to which knowledge and belief themselves can reshape reality, and dragons are much better at this than humans or trolls, such that "dream dragons," literally figments of a dragon's dream, are a regular middle level menace.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:17
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Tulip posted:I think even having consensus magic, as opposed to 'magic operates on a set of parallel physics that normal physics is unable to even measure without proper enlightenment,' is both antithetical to playing a game and hearing satisfactory explanations. But then how could we have long and dithering arguments and screeds about the nature of magic/the Supernal/whatever overbearing and crowding out more interesting topics every now and then?
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Mar 31, 2021 22:32
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There is simply no more interesting topic.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:38
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Archonex posted:But then how could we have long and dithering arguments and screeds about the nature of magic/the Supernal/whatever overbearing and crowding out more interesting topics every now and then?
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Mar 31, 2021 22:47
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Archonex posted:But then how could we have long and dithering arguments and screeds about the nature of magic/the Supernal/whatever overbearing and crowding out more interesting topics every now and then?
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Mar 31, 2021 22:52
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:It feels especially disingenuous and, I'd even risk saying, loving stupid and unproductive gently caress off, you add nothing, why are you here and talking, to bring this up after someone was saying only earlier this week that no one had been posting at all in this thread for a bit! I wanted to warn them that speaking of mage is like Beetlejuice. Only you only need to say it once and it had already been summoned. I also hate/love Ascension talk because it’s incredibly interesting to me as I have a background in sociology and social philosophy, but also hate it because there’s really not a great way to “fix” Ascension and that makes it essentially unplayable for me or my group. We’re just not in it for the ideology of it anymore and I just can’t deal with the magic system. So I’ll just go back in my corner and watch it drive past and wait for the Deviant books to ship.
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Mar 31, 2021 23:11
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Soonmot posted:Always post game synopsis updates! The only thing I'm slightly annoyed about is that the distrustful tension of the first two sessions is apparently gone now, the PCs are all friends a bit too quick for my liking but oh well, otherwise the session was awesome. The swordgal character getting attacked in her flat rolled absurdly well and the creepy attacker broke down into a heaving swarm of headless snake things when she killed it, she evacd the flat and the mechanic character was like 'go to my garage, there's a key hidden under a patio stone,' it was a nice character moment between them but that was definitely when 'we don't trust each other' stopped being a theme. Absolute highlight of the session was the ptsd vet telling her creepy experience story, I already knew it was 'fellow soldiers started acting cold and inhuman, wierd order came in to attack a pointless target, when one of them went down and needed medical aid they were full of wires and oil not flesh' but she told that story so loving well, for a good 20 minutes I was absolutely hooked even though I already knew the gist of it.
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Mar 31, 2021 23:28
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Jhet posted:I also hate/love Ascension talk because it’s incredibly interesting to me as I have a background in sociology and social philosophy, but also hate it because there’s really not a great way to “fix” Ascension and that makes it essentially unplayable for me or my group. We’re just not in it for the ideology of it anymore and I just can’t deal with the magic system.
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Mar 31, 2021 23:42
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Ferrinus posted:Like I said, that's similar to "the Consensus" killing off dodos. In real life, we killed off dodos. But, to be slightly more abstract but still unimpeachably true, we as humans created an environment that was fundamentally inhospitable to the continued existence of dodos, so no more dodos. Dragon extinction works the same way. The Consensus shapes the environment around us to basically the same extent that we can shape it deliberately, but it doesn't change the basic human condition. Obviously, in Mage it actually happens by magic and dragons just sort of sadly fade away, their corpses shifting into either dinosaur fossils or rock formations, but the principle's the same. I feel like what you're going for here is a bit... mmm... unsatisfying and overly parsimonious? It feels a bit like those "magicians" who talk about magic being willing things into being, and whenever asked to demonstrate something magical flick the light switch and say that they've magically made light by acting on their will. They call it magic but we kind of expect something more from magic than just literally what we all know exists and is possible. What magic is there to consensusing the dodo or the dragon out of existence if the way to do it is to hunt it to extinction?
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Apr 1, 2021 00:16
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LatwPIAT posted:What magic is there to consensusing the dodo or the dragon out of existence if the way to do it is to hunt it to extinction? Scion: Dragon actually does something interesting with the Dragon point actually, with the (current) in-universe place of dragons for Scion: Dragon specifically being "yeah we might've been a lot of things but over times the stories the gods and their followers told cast us as monsters that they went and killed and then oops! that's what we were, now and always" so their own scions ("Heirs") operate in the shadows for fear of someone showing up and being like, "oh, dragons as in, the ones we kill because they suck, and that the gods defeat at every turn, RIP you."
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Apr 1, 2021 00:34
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LatwPIAT posted:I feel like what you're going for here is a bit... mmm... unsatisfying and overly parsimonious? It feels a bit like those "magicians" who talk about magic being willing things into being, and whenever asked to demonstrate something magical flick the light switch and say that they've magically made light by acting on their will. They call it magic but we kind of expect something more from magic than just literally what we all know exists and is possible. That actually is how magic works in Ascension, though! Or rather, it's how coincidental magic works, whether it's heterodox willworkers sneaking their Effects in under the nose of the Consensus or how regular old Sleepers take advantage of miracles that the Consensus has rendered universal and mundane. (It's also how real-world hucksters justify their lack of actual magic powers.) If I'm a Hermetic with enough dots of Forces, and I'm exploring a dank old basement, I might wave my hands and chant in Latin and, poof... the lights that we thought were dead flicker on! And I can smugly tell you that it's all thanks to my magical powers, and you can tell me, bullshit, someone clearly reset the breaker in another room or something, and in fact we'd both be correct. Only if I go vulgar could I actually produce a floating luminescent energy ball or something (but also suffer a great chance of failure, draw down paradox, etc). To be clear, I don't think dragons were literally hunted to extinction in the Mage setting, I think they just sort of gently faded away, either vanishing into nothingness or devolving into monitor lizards and birds and such when no one was looking. It's analagous, but not literally the same as, how human social development causes the extinctions of all sorts of other species, whether through overhunting or pollution or whatever else.
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Apr 1, 2021 00:42
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Ferrinus posted:When the aether falls out of the Consensus, that has the practical effect that certain silly-looking machines stop working, but other differently-silly-looking machines start working. Same reason an injection from a syringe will inoculate you against a disease while wearing an amulet with a certain rune carved on it won't - both deal with a basic, easily-observed physical reality (sickness vs. health), both purport to control it using invisible means (healing magic vs. antibodies), only one is effective because of prevailing social relations. Hmm, well, how about antibiotics being wildly believed to help against virus infections, yet demonstrably not doing so? It's a widely held and simple belief about sickess purporting control by invisible means, yet doesn't exist within the consensus. Ferrinus posted:That actually is how magic works in Ascension, though! Or rather, it's how coincidental magic works, whether it's heterodox willworkers sneaking their Effects in under the nose of the Consensus or how regular old Sleepers take advantage of miracles that the Consensus has rendered universal and mundane. (It's also how real-world hucksters justify their lack of actual magic powers.) If I'm a Hermetic with enough dots of Forces, and I'm exploring a dank old basement, I might wave my hands and chant in Latin and, poof... the lights that we thought were dead flicker on! And I can smugly tell you that it's all thanks to my magical powers, and you can tell me, bullshit, someone clearly reset the breaker in another room or something, and in fact we'd both be correct. Only if I go vulgar could I actually produce a floating luminescent energy ball or something (but also suffer a great chance of failure, draw down paradox, etc). But Ascension is not the setting of a bunch of people who can cast vulgar magic just happening to also have lots of fortuitous things happening to them, it's a game about playing magic where the magic is known, real, and understood. Folding the entirety of the effects of consensus under "it just happens to create a world that looks and works exactly the same as our reality, but it totally works by consensus reality instead of cold, hard natural laws" is... well, does consensus reality even exist then? It seems to only work on explainable phenomena: an ad hoc and unnecessary explanation for things that doesn't add anything to our understanding of the world. I don't find that satisfying.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:28
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LatwPIAT posted:It seems to only work on explainable phenomena: an ad hoc and unnecessary explanation for things that doesn't add anything to our understanding of the world.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:36
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LatwPIAT posted:Hmm, well, how about antibiotics being wildly believed to help against virus infections, yet demonstrably not doing so? It's a widely held and simple belief about sickess purporting control by invisible means, yet doesn't exist within the consensus. Remember, "virus infections" is itself a technocratic incantation. You can't see a bacterium or a virus or whatever, you just know you have a fever. That different kinds of fever require different kinds of drugs based on, would you believe it, tiny invisible creatures that live in your blood, oh my god they're actually buying it - that's part of the nuts and bolts of magic, and Sleepers getting it wrong doesn't mean it doesn't rule and work. Imagine a counterfactual in which Hermetics ruled the world. There'd be stupid Sleepers who, get this, think it's appropriate to cast summoning spells with orbs! Idiots! Anyone who's the least bit educated knows tomes are more appropriate! Eh, what are you going to do, there's no helping some people. quote:But Ascension is not the setting of a bunch of people who can cast vulgar magic just happening to also have lots of fortuitous things happening to them, it's a game about playing magic where the magic is known, real, and understood. Folding the entirety of the effects of consensus under "it just happens to create a world that looks and works exactly the same as our reality, but it totally works by consensus reality instead of cold, hard natural laws" is... well, does consensus reality even exist then? It seems to only work on explainable phenomena: an ad hoc and unnecessary explanation for things that doesn't add anything to our understanding of the world. I don't find that satisfying. There's not a contradiction between "people who can cast vulgar magic and also have lots of fortuitous things happen to them" and "magic is known, real, and understood." My Hermetic lighting up the basement really is using the principles of sorcery as laid down by Thrice-Great Hermes to summon forth light. It provably works! I can do it on demand! (Err, most of the time, I've only got a few dice to roll for Arete and sometimes none of them come up high enough.) It's just that it looks to outsiders and nonbelievers like I'm unusually fortunate. It's like if you saw someone guess three Zener cards in a row - do you actually become a believer in telepathy on the spot? No, they got lucky. This is part and parcel of any WoD game, new or old. The world looks normal to the casual observer. With both versions of Mage, there's an extra wrinkle - as desperate as you might be to prove magic is real, to share its wonders with those around you, you can't, because your workings are either subtle enough to be indistinguishable from luck or blatant enough to blow up in your face or drive the onlooker insane.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:46
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Yeah, that's why Ascension is a bad game and Consensus Reality is a stupid idea, I don't think you'll find much disagreement with that position. Bad for gamin good for postin
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Apr 1, 2021 02:41
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Ferrinus posted:There's not a contradiction between "people who can cast vulgar magic and also have lots of fortuitous things happen to them" and "magic is known, real, and understood." My Hermetic lighting up the basement really is using the principles of sorcery as laid down by Thrice-Great Hermes to summon forth light. It provably works! I can do it on demand! (Err, most of the time, I've only got a few dice to roll for Arete and sometimes none of them come up high enough.) It's just that it looks to outsiders and nonbelievers like I'm unusually fortunate. It's like if you saw someone guess three Zener cards in a row - do you actually become a believer in telepathy on the spot? No, they got lucky. I am not saying it's contradictory, I'm saying it's unsatisfactory: the game has had four editions and never had an internally consistent approach to how consensus reality actually works. We're grasping at shadows here, trying to make sense of the nonsensical. People were approaching a conversation about how Ascension's consensus reality should work (by pointing out its flaws). You offered an interpretation where you purported to resolve these flaws, but I'm objecting partly on the grounds that it's not a terribly satisfying resolution of the problem. I don't think it makes for interesting fiction that is fun to read about, I think it makes for a very dull world that doesn't benefit at all from consensus reality being a setting element.
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Apr 1, 2021 02:54
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I saw a spike in posts and assumed something fun had happened, like someone had been outed as a sex pest or Bloodlines 2 was more cancelled. 
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Apr 1, 2021 03:00
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:It feels especially disingenuous and, I'd even risk saying, loving stupid and unproductive gently caress off, you add nothing, why are you here and talking, to bring this up after someone was saying only earlier this week that no one had been posting at all in this thread for a bit! Literally, we had people talking about the SoE on the same and previous drat page. Literally, we are having mage chat right loving now. Albeit in one of it's more tolerable forms --- that is, fixing Mage instead of arguing over infinitesimal minutiae of the property itself. So how 'bout you gently caress off instead, pal? If all the thread can produce on average is magechat then it isn't a World or Chronicles of Darkness thread. It's just the magechat thread. Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Scion: Dragon actually does something interesting with the Dragon point actually, with the (current) in-universe place of dragons for Scion: Dragon specifically being "yeah we might've been a lot of things but over times the stories the gods and their followers told cast us as monsters that they went and killed and then oops! that's what we were, now and always" so their own scions ("Heirs") operate in the shadows for fear of someone showing up and being like, "oh, dragons as in, the ones we kill because they suck, and that the gods defeat at every turn, RIP you." I'm not too read up on Scion, but doesn't it have a thing where all the local Super's are effected by consensus reality of sorts? It's just that it's only relegated to mythological entities like gods and dragons etc, etc. Deific Fatebinding or something like that is what it's called, meaning that how a given deity is perceived influences how it acts. It seems like a decent way to deal with the issue of consensus reality. Making it encompass literally everything brings up a number of issues. Whereas making it encompass only select areas and themes and all around limiting it's focus to things that are directly narrowed down to avoid issues (and provide a reason to act subtly) like what LatwPIAT mentioned a few posts ago seems to fix a number of it's issues. Archonex fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 03:03
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