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They already confirmed he was fired after I was offered the position. It was through a recruiter as well so this is all documented on my end in a couple different ways. Don't know if it'll fall under promissory estoppel or even if my state recognizes that, or what the jurisdiction would even be since it's an out of state employer. Glad I didn't sign a lease yet that's all I'm saying. I guess for content, make sure there's a clause in your offer that you'll be reimbursed x amount if they rescind it for reasons other than the basic contingencies like a drug test and BG check.
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Mar 30, 2021 22:52
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Parallelwoody posted:make sure there's a clause in your offer that you'll be reimbursed x amount if they rescind it for reasons other than the basic contingencies like a drug test and BG check. I'm guessing only the most desperate and small employers would agree to such a request for a clause.... at most companies I assume the overall language of the offer letter is fairly set in stone by HR, with only certain numerical details open to change (compensation, PTO, etc) I also resent the premise that there is nothing in this thread for pros to learn from. I'm mid-career ish and have learned a lot from the thread.
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Mar 30, 2021 23:00
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Same. I always learn something from this thread, even when I'm not actively looking or negotiating.
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Mar 30, 2021 23:13
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:If you have a signed copy of the letter, then I'm pretty sure that the only argument the company could make (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice) that would hold any water was that the letter was signed after the guy had been fired, in which case he wouldn't be acting as a representative of the company any more. So if you do run into issues, find out exactly when the guy got canned before you tell them about the letter. In most jurisdictions even written/signed offers aren't legally binding so it's not like there would be any legal obligations or liability for rescinding it or renegotiating it now. It's just a horrendous violation of universal norms of hiring. You don't gently caress someone over like that.
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Mar 30, 2021 23:18
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The premise is that this thread is geared more towards beginners and the negotiation guidelines laid out in the OP are assuming you are not experienced with negotiating vs the person on the other side of the table who does it every day. But I mean if that's your large take away from my last few posts as well then I don't know what to tell you as I'm kind of focused on other things than the specific wording of trivial poo poo at the moment and more so on is it "likely I'll have a job next week" and "is there any way to navigate this situation someone more experienced than me can advise." Apologies if you disagree with the one nugget of wisdom I'm trying to pick from this garbage pile.
Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Mar 30, 2021 |
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Mar 30, 2021 23:18
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Parallelwoody posted:I'm kind of focused on other things than the specific wording of trivial poo poo at the moment and more so on is it "likely I'll have a job next week" and "is there any way to navigate this situation someone more experienced than me can advise." If they're going to try to cut the offered salary then no, there's really nothing for you to do but tell them to pound sand. Send the guy a copy of the signed offer letter with an attached note that says "Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you, I look forward to starting on [start date in letter]." There's still room to hope they're really that disorganized (though even that suggests a level of total corporate dysfunction that you should be wary of as you start the job) and they just genuinely lost everything. If worst comes to worst then you have to view it as a gigantic dodged bullet because a company so unethical they would try to cut the salary on, or pull, a written offer would be hell to work for.
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Mar 30, 2021 23:40
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Everything for my hire was going through the VP of the department directly who was hired as an interim consultant, and apparently he didn't share any of that info with the rest of the staff other than to expect to hear from me for on-boarding. They are now going through the first round of interviews for the person who would be in the role above mine, and the exact scope of my job was never really nailed down as it was looking at long term projects revamping how the HR department runs in general (which...yeah). I'll happily tell them to gently caress off if they try to lower anything already agreed on, hopefully I'll still qualify for unemployment in a worst case scenario. I have a call scheduled tomorrow with the CEO to discuss the specifics and expectations of the role and if he's going to cut bait that seems like the time to do it I suppose.
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Mar 30, 2021 23:50
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Another possibility is they'll want you to wait until they fill the role above you and then start over and interview again with that person. Or if you prefer to be optimistic, maybe they want you to interview for that role.
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Mar 31, 2021 00:06
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Inner Light posted:I also resent the premise that there is nothing in this thread for pros to learn from. I'm mid-career ish and have learned a lot from the thread. I mostly lurk but yes this thread is very useful mid career.
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Mar 31, 2021 00:34
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I'm mid career negotiating for quite a bit more and find this thread a valuable resource.
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Mar 31, 2021 02:16
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Eric the Mauve posted:Or if you prefer to be optimistic, maybe they want you to interview for that role.
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Mar 31, 2021 04:05
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silvergoose posted:That is a *horrible* situation, jesus. You have, more or less, zero leverage and they know it. It sucks, but offer letters are generally nonbinding. I'm not sure what an employment lawyer would do in this case.
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Mar 31, 2021 09:55
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I suppose so. Still really sketchy.
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Mar 31, 2021 11:35
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silvergoose posted:I suppose so. Still really sketchy. oh it's absolutely lovely but not the same thing as illegal plus I suppose there is a chance that the dude was term'd for something that was actually really a professional standards/ethics violation in which case you would give a kind of vague weird answer about the offer because who knows what the dude was up to and you gotta do due diligence. this is unlikely but possible.
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Mar 31, 2021 12:38
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Parallelwoody posted:The premise is that this thread is geared more towards beginners and the negotiation guidelines laid out in the OP are assuming you are not experienced with negotiating vs the person on the other side of the table who does it every day. But I mean if that's your large take away from my last few posts as well then I don't know what to tell you as I'm kind of focused on other things than the specific wording of trivial poo poo at the moment and more so on is it "likely I'll have a job next week" and "is there any way to navigate this situation someone more experienced than me can advise." Apologies if you disagree with the one nugget of wisdom I'm trying to pick from this garbage pile. Also, I think categorizing things into "beginner" and "not beginner" is kinda unhelpful. Negotiating is a skill like any other, and it is prone to both Dunning-Kruger and Halo biases. Also, you can be ridiculously good at negotiating (top 1%) and still find yourself constantly negotiating with other 1%'ers or 0.1%'ers due to the specialization of labor and skills that occurs at a large company. At my former company, essentially all job offers were approved by one guy, who handled over 100 per year. I don't know anything about you other than what you've posted here, so this is meant more as a general comment than anything specific to you or your situation.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:00
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I'll reiterate what I said on the last page and explicitly disagree with Eric for once: What Parallelwoody does from here is entirely dependent on their financial circumstances and prospects for other jobs. If you can't afford to be out a job and someone pulls this poo poo on you, then you take the job and you look for your next one. If you have been searching for months and this your only bite, then you take the job and you look for your next one. If this was the best offer out of multiple then yeah, NewJob needs to honor the offer letter or gently caress themselves with a chainsaw. FWIW CEO being involved on a situation like this might not be because they're trying to gently caress you over but because poo poo has gone sufficiently awry by accident that the CEO wants to make sure nothing fucky happens from here out. This situation totally sucks and I'm sorry you're in it.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:23
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I do think it's premature to assume bad faith on their part. So far everything I've said is predicated on IF they renege, etc. Pragmatically it is probably best, if a company lowers an offer after you've accepted it but you're unemployed or about to be and it's all you've got, to take it and go forward seeking your chance to jump. For me personally I would rather live under a bridge than ever allow anyone to dishonestly gently caress me over. But I acknowledge that policy isn't necessarily in my practical best interests all the time.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:38
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Eric the Mauve posted:I do think it's premature to assume bad faith on their part. yeah I think this is really important. you should be prepared in case it's in bad faith because then you have a plan and won't get blindsided, but don't let that process make you assume that they are acting in bad faith.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:40
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That's the direction I've been preparing for as the fired guy did report directly to the CEO, but yeah I'm mentally ready to walk if they try to renege on anything we have agreed to. Not trying to work for an employer like that and I'll be fine picking up more contracting work. I do appreciate the advice. For the positive, I did negotiate an extra 8k in salary which was over a 10% increase, so at least I got a psychological victory even if everything else goes tits up. Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 16:02
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Parallelwoody posted:That's the direction I've been preparing for as the fired guy did report directly to the CEO, but yeah I'm mentally ready to walk if they try to renege on anything we have agreed to. Not trying to work for an employer like that and I'll be fine picking up more contracting work. I do appreciate the advice. When are you chatting with the CEO? Somehow I have become deeply invested in how this story ends  I realize it's super stressful for you, but it's just so unusual that the mystery of it all has captivated me.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:28
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Zarin posted:When are you chatting with the CEO? Somehow I have become deeply invested in how this story ends  Mostly just lurking through this whole thing without anything to add, but I’m very curious to hear the details of this meeting. Goon speed, Parallelwoody.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:34
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It sucks, but offer letters are generally nonbinding. I'm not sure what an employment lawyer would do in this case. This really stood out to me. That really sucks. I remember being super nervous about this for my first adult job and talking to my union about it, and they assured me that offer letters are binding over here in Denmark. It just makes a lot of sense from the perspective of a flexible labour market too, since it lets people change jobs without worrying about poo poo like this.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:53
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BonHair posted:This really stood out to me. That really sucks. I remember being super nervous about this for my first adult job and talking to my union about it, and they assured me that offer letters are binding over here in Denmark. It just makes a lot of sense from the perspective of a flexible labour market too, since it lets people change jobs without worrying about poo poo like this. That struck me, too; in one of my college classes the head of the Career Center gave some presentations and he made it sound like the offer letters were pretty legally binding, and you could be open to recovering damages if you made life changes based on a signed offer letter and then they walked back after the fact. It's very disappointing to find now that this isn't the case. Which is interesting, because when I signed the last letter (well, e-signed) there was a big disclaimer that said something like "BY CLICKING THIS BUTTON THIS BECOMES A LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT, DO YOU ACCEPT?"
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Mar 31, 2021 18:57
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In Right To Work states, it doesn't matter if you have a signed letter or not. The company can let you go whenever they want for no reason at all.
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Mar 31, 2021 19:04
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*At-Will Employment At-will is a two way street: you're allowed to leave anytime you want for any reason you want, they're allowed to fire you anytime they want for any reason they want (except discrimination against protected classes).
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Mar 31, 2021 19:05
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fwiw, an offer letter could be legally binding but it's almost certainly not if it's properly drafted. I just started reading this thread recently and now I'm hooked on the saga. Please let us know how it ends.
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Mar 31, 2021 19:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:*At-Will Employment
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Mar 31, 2021 19:42
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Spoke with him earlier, he shot down the signing bonus which wasn't in the offer letter but was advertised with the position (with an out to possibly add it in for some reason, I guess if I raise a big enough stink), and I'll "get clarification" (we know this is going to be a no) on whether the PTO in the offer is separate from holidays. Otherwise the offer still stands as written. I did what felt like a mini interview that I purposely kept brief as I'm not going to interview for a position I was already offered regardless of the circumstances. So looks like ball is in my court if I want to move forward with the relocation. I hammered home that the expectations are this is going to be a 40 hour work week and if it goes over I'm allowed to manage my time as I see fit, and that a work life balance is my top priority, so we will see what it's like in practice. Who knows what the new boss will expect though. Thanks for the advice everyone, sorry I couldn't provide a more dramatic resolution like "and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?'"
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Mar 31, 2021 20:02
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Parallelwoody posted:Spoke with him earlier, he shot down the signing bonus which wasn't in the offer letter but was advertised with the position (with an out to possibly add it in for some reason, I guess if I raise a big enough stink), and I'll "get clarification" (we know this is going to be a no) on whether the PTO in the offer is separate from holidays. Otherwise the offer still stands as written. I did what felt like a mini interview that I purposely kept brief as I'm not going to interview for a position I was already offered regardless of the circumstances. So looks like ball is in my court if I want to move forward with the relocation. I hammered home that the expectations are this is going to be a 40 hour work week and if it goes over I'm allowed to manage my time as I see fit, and that a work life balance is my top priority, so we will see what it's like in practice. Who knows what the new boss will expect though. Thanks for the advice everyone, sorry I couldn't provide a more dramatic resolution like "and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?'" For what it's worth you handled it like a professional and you at least have a personal relationship with the CEO of the new company (for better or worse!)
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Mar 31, 2021 21:46
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Good ending! It sounds like they honestly hosed up with the temp and tried to damage control as quickly as possible when they realized. Bad situation, especially for you, but it sounds like they owed up to it in the end.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:55
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Parallelwoody posted:"and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?'" This is canon in my head now.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:57
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Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?'
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Mar 31, 2021 22:11
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Parallelwoody posted:Spoke with him earlier, he shot down the signing bonus which wasn't in the offer letter but was advertised with the position (with an out to possibly add it in for some reason, I guess if I raise a big enough stink), and I'll "get clarification" (we know this is going to be a no) on whether the PTO in the offer is separate from holidays. Otherwise the offer still stands as written. I did what felt like a mini interview that I purposely kept brief as I'm not going to interview for a position I was already offered regardless of the circumstances. So looks like ball is in my court if I want to move forward with the relocation. I hammered home that the expectations are this is going to be a 40 hour work week and if it goes over I'm allowed to manage my time as I see fit, and that a work life balance is my top priority, so we will see what it's like in practice. Who knows what the new boss will expect though. Thanks for the advice everyone, sorry I couldn't provide a more dramatic resolution like "and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?'" drat, too bad the signing bonus wasn't in the offer letter. I guess that's good info for me to consider in the future, I guess! Are they covering relo? Also, I'm not sure I've ever heard of PTO being rolled in with holidays . . . I'm not sure how much you were offered, but that seems like a weird thing to need clarification on. You definitely delivered with that last sentence though, thank you kind goon! Eric the Mauve posted:Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?'
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Mar 31, 2021 22:38
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Eric the Mauve posted:Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?' Please
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Mar 31, 2021 22:40
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Eric the Mauve posted:Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?' mods do the needful
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Apr 1, 2021 01:30
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As an epilogue, I called the guy they fired to try to get some perspective as the story I got about why they separated didn't seem near the truth. He apparently turned down an extension and the CEO got pissed then told him not to come back. I guess the "failing expectations" was the expectation he'd keep working for them longer than they originally agreed. He did reiterate it was a great opportunity to build my resume if I can accomplish some of the things we outlined in the interview and sell it correctly, and also offered to give me advice and provide some mentorship if I wanted, which I was very thankful for the offer. Lol he also added "all of those things they asked you for are sitting in a file clearly labeled for them, but I guess they are too busy being mad at me to look."
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Apr 1, 2021 02:13
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Parallelwoody posted:As an epilogue, I called the guy they fired to try to get some perspective as the story I got about why they separated didn't seem near the truth. He apparently turned down an extension and the CEO got pissed then told him not to come back. I guess the "failing expectations" was the expectation he'd keep working for them longer than they originally agreed. He did reiterate it was a great opportunity to build my resume if I can accomplish some of the things we outlined in the interview and sell it correctly, and also offered to give me advice and provide some mentorship if I wanted, which I was very thankful for the offer. Lol he also added "all of those things they asked you for are sitting in a file clearly labeled for them, but I guess they are too busy being mad at me to look." 
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Apr 1, 2021 03:20
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Oh hey, so that digital agency that was offering me $130k, I countered at $160k, and then strung me along for two weeks and gave me a decline afterwards? Their VP just called me back and offered me $154k. Extremely tempted to take this, but a bit worried about two things: * These guys literally wrote the book about what I do in my field. Serious, impending impostor syndrome doom on this one, I am literally 100% self taught and have zero (active) certifications (only expired ones from years ago) * I'm... kinda lazy and worried about going back to the world where I literally keep track of every hour that I'm working How do you weigh this kinda stuff? On the plus side, validation achieved!
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Apr 1, 2021 18:53
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Eric the Mauve posted:Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: and then I burned their house down and yelled 'WHAT'S YOUR BATNA NOW, BITCH?' I had to shorten it a little because it's too long. Radium is why we can't have nice things I guess. 
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Apr 1, 2021 19:05
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stellers bae posted:Oh hey, so that digital agency that was offering me $130k, I countered at $160k, and then strung me along for two weeks and gave me a decline afterwards? Shove that imposter syndrome feeling deep to the back and realize that we’re all faking it, even the people who know their poo poo. Remember - they want you. That’s the validation your imposter syndrome needs. (I think if you’re susceptible to imposter syndrome you’ll always have it no matter what you accomplish, so you have to learn to deal with it.) Money is money, also this is possibly / probably a good growth opportunity for you. Worst case scenario you don’t like it and you look for something new with the added cred & additional salary in your back pocket. e: and just adding that I love this new title
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Apr 1, 2021 19:10
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