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1337JiveTurkey posted:The PDF is about families. The post I’m responding to says that the PDF details alternates to keeping children in camps which it absolutely doesn’t because it’s about families where the children have one or more guardians and the government isn’t acting in loco parentis. The poster and PDF are talking about there being alternatives to camps for immigration, and you are replying as if the person said "specifically we should release children into cities with zero support", an argument that they didn't make and actually nobody made. So if your response is "that pdf does not cover all the issues", say that. But you didn't say that.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:20
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Nosfereefer posted:Are there any groups or organizations that can be supported financially or otherwise by non-US citizens to pressure the government or at least aid the prisoners somehow? Watching this unfold from the outside is grim as gently caress, and I'm sure as hell the EU won't stick their neck out with sanctions, much less China or Russia. there are many many many NGOs working on this, many of them working with the Biden administration to house immigrants currently or in the near future i'm not real up on the details of which can accept foreign donations, unfortunately
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Mar 31, 2021 20:26
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UCS Hellmaker posted:OK I'll goddamn bite your bullshit from cspam to own the libs The Biden admin only contracted hotels for 1200 families. China built an entire hospital in 5 days at the beginning of the pandemic, so your argument of what's actually possible is more liberal handwringing. You can bet your sweet rear end that if tens of thousands of nice white folk from Europe showed up on the southern border needing emergency shelter, we'd be bending over backwards to provide it and the exits wouldn't have bars or armed guards. The component which resulted in 615 people stuffed into a room designed for 32 is racism. The Republicans' racism is loud and the Democrats' racism is quiet. We could take care of them all humanely, give them citizenship, and integrate them into society.... but we won't.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:47
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Bishyaler posted:The Biden admin only contracted hotels for 1200 families. China built an entire hospital in 5 days at the beginning of the pandemic, so your argument of what's actually possible is more liberal handwringing. You can bet your sweet rear end that if tens of thousands of nice white folk from Europe showed up on the southern border needing emergency shelter, we'd be bending over backwards to provide it and the exits wouldn't have bars or armed guards. The component which resulted in 615 people stuffed into a room designed for 32 is racism. The Republicans' racism is loud and the Democrats' racism is quiet. Tens of thousands of nice people from Europe... are you familiar with US history with regards to immigration? Because it sure doesn’t sound like it.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:52
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1337JiveTurkey posted:Releasing them into cities where they'll quickly be starving and homeless with no real employment prospects apart from sex work. They won't be getting education, healthcare or anything like that. They have no supervision or protection from anyone who would want to harm them and a homeless person with no ties to the area has a target painted right on them. Can you point to where in the list of alternatives listed in the PDF it says "release children alone in cities to be abused by sex traffickers?" Jesus loving Christ, we're getting into new lows in terms of defense of the camps here. socialsecurity posted:Do you have any numbers on this? I see a great deal of talk about the surge in unaccompanied minors is that not real or even with the surge is it somehow still a very small %? Even if it's a small number are you suggesting we just dump the unaccompanied children at the border? Should there be an age cutoff or survival training or something? There are no hard numbers on this because DHS doesn't track that data. But it has been widely reported and is backed up by considerable evidence that unaccompanied minors turn themselves in to border patrol once they cross the Rio Grande: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/03/11/unaccompanied-minors-immigrants-border/ That one of the primary reasons the unaccompanied minors make the trip is for family reunification (indicating that they have family already here). And, on top of it all, unaccompanied minors doesn't refer literally to unaccompanied, but without a parent. Someone trying to cross with an uncle would be considered unaccompanied; https://fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/R43628.pdf I would also point to myth #4 in the following document: https://rai.onlinelibrary.wiley.com...zK819u0NlCdqi3w And in fact, between 1/3 and 1/2 of detained minors have at least one parent living in the US: https://www.unhcr.org/56fc266f4.html 1337JiveTurkey posted:The PDF is about families. The post I’m responding to says that the PDF details alternates to keeping children in camps which it absolutely doesn’t because it’s about families where the children have one or more guardians and the government isn’t acting in loco parentis. So, first you mischaracterize what I said, and now are trying to muddy the waters. If you want an alternative, for starters the US could start to follow the Flores settlement requirements, instead of trying to fight them like every administration has done since 1997.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:57
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Slow News Day posted:Tens of thousands of nice people from Europe... are you familiar with US history with regards to immigration? Because it sure doesn’t sound like it. I'm not sure "The US has always been assholes to immigrants and the Democrats are not interested in changing that" is the winning argument you're looking for. Also I was referring to attitudes toward immigration in modern times.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:03
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From 1882-1943 it was impossible to immigrate from China, and from 1924-1965 it was near impossible to immigrate except from north Western European countries. Most of southern and Eastern Europe was outright blocked. After WW2 we made displaced persons in refugee camps wait til 1948 until we would accept them. We’ve rarely just let anyone one in. Sadly the bit about America being in the top tier of immigration is true; I’m not aware of a western country that doesn’t have a points system now that in practice requires an advanced degree in a specific field. Even worse is in some sort places with socialized healthcare they can reject giving you a visa or citizenship, which happened recently to an Australian born kid with serious medical issues, who was denied Australian citizenship because he was “too expensive”. In just about any other country refugees are treated worse and denied at similar or greater rates. This isn’t to excuse the situation at the border; it’s bad.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:06
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Bishyaler posted:I'm not sure "The US has always been assholes to immigrants and the Democrats are not interested in changing that" is the winning argument you're looking for. Also I was referring to attitudes toward immigration in modern times. There was some insinuation that the US had regressed with regards to immigration and some level of insinuation that it was uniquely evil. The sad part is that globally refugees are demonized, marginalized and abused.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:08
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UCS Hellmaker posted:There's no argument to be had with someone that doesn't want to or is willing to understand that the world is not a black and white board with good and evil on it. Instead of just spewing bullshit from twitter and outrage actually provide solutions. There is more to the situation then a 140 character tweet. Totally fair that none of us, with no real power, can actually solve it. That said, it is within your power to not spend the slowly draining moments of your life defending weird justifications of why we actually do need to put people in concentration camps lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2021 21:10
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freeasinbeer posted:There was some insinuation that the US had regressed with regards to immigration and some level of insinuation that it was uniquely evil. With regards to the southern border, specifically, it is the most militarized and hardest to cross it has ever been. For most of American history, the southern border was essentially open, and you'd get seasonal migration in and out from Mexico and Central America.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:11
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joepinetree posted:With regards to the southern border, specifically, it is the most militarized and hardest to cross it has ever been. For most of American history, the southern border was essentially open, and you'd get seasonal migration in and out from Mexico and Central America. I've had some success with this angle when arguing with people who are less uh extremely pro open borders than I am, who are worried that the population of America will be two billion if we make immigration easy and humane. Turns out even (or especially) the people right next door who would have an easy time logistically tend to be fond of their extended family etc back home. We've had much looser borders in the past, at least with Mexico / Central America, and it went fine by any sane evaluation. admittedly for a chunk of that time we were also incredibly astonishingly racist about East Asia
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Mar 31, 2021 22:36
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People seem dismissive of the idea that very open borders is incompatible with a strong welfare state, but this country feels like pretty strong loving evidence of it. There's not a lot of countries looking for America's poor and desperate, which we have in ample supply. Canada spends money and energy making sure our people in need of health care aren't going across the border to get it from them, and there's been Canadians pretending to be married to Americans who need the health benefits. How many of us who don't qualify under their current immigration policies would move tomorrow if it meant almost never being worried about armed strangers or dealing with the state the GOP wants to build? Obviously there are worse places to live than the US, but also if you look at all the single payer healthcare systems around the world only Thailand offers guaranteed coverage to immigrants who came over on pure self-determination and no certification.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:46
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Craptacular! posted:People seem dismissive of the idea that very open borders is incompatible with a strong welfare state, but this country feels like pretty strong loving evidence of it. There's not a lot of countries looking for America's poor and desperate, which we have in ample supply. Canada spends money and energy making sure our people in need of health care aren't going across the border to get it from them, and there's been Canadians pretending to be married to Americans who need the health benefits. How many of us who don't qualify under their current immigration policies would move tomorrow if it meant almost never being worried about armed strangers or dealing with the state the GOP wants to build? are you really arguing that the reason we don't have universal health care is become we allow immigration
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Mar 31, 2021 22:57
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Aruan posted:are you really arguing that the reason we don't have universal health care is become we allow immigration "Very open borders" was the euphemism for the sort of policy that D&D regularly advocates for but is rarely put in practice anywhere outside of Svalbard. e.g. Completely open migration with no compacts or visa requirements.
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Mar 31, 2021 23:06
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Craptacular! posted:No. I hadn't heard of Svalbard and immigration before. What is the history there, and how did this Norwegian non-county area end up with the policy of "anyone can come and live here, no visa necessary"?
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Mar 31, 2021 23:26
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Fuschia tude posted:I hadn't heard of Svalbard and immigration before. What is the history there, and how did this Norwegian non-county area end up with the policy of "anyone can come and live here, no visa necessary"? They need to keep the polar bears fed
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Mar 31, 2021 23:41
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Craptacular! posted:People seem dismissive of the idea that very open borders is incompatible with a strong welfare state, but this country feels like pretty strong loving evidence of it. There's not a lot of countries looking for America's poor and desperate, which we have in ample supply. Canada spends money and energy making sure our people in need of health care aren't going across the border to get it from them, and there's been Canadians pretending to be married to Americans who need the health benefits. How many of us who don't qualify under their current immigration policies would move tomorrow if it meant almost never being worried about armed strangers or dealing with the state the GOP wants to build? Unless you think that the options are "open borders or children in cages," your argument is simply without basis in reality. Virtually all of the countries in the world with a more generous welfare state than the US also have a higher share of immigrants in the population than the us. 
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Apr 1, 2021 00:10
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G1mby posted:They need to keep the polar bears fed
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Apr 1, 2021 00:39
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"Canada wouldn't allow this kind of poo poo" *Canada more than doubles our per capita immigration* Thank you for that chart.
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Apr 1, 2021 00:56
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Fuschia tude posted:I hadn't heard of Svalbard and immigration before. What is the history there, and how did this Norwegian non-county area end up with the policy of "anyone can come and live here, no visa necessary"? Here's a story about it. TLDR: It was a condition Norway agreed to when France handed it over to them after WWI.
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Apr 1, 2021 00:58
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G1mby posted:They need to keep the polar bears fed His Dark Materials was a work of fiction  Craptacular! posted:Here's a story about it. TLDR: It was a condition Norway agreed to when France handed it over to them after WWI. Cool, thanks!
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Apr 1, 2021 00:59
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UCS Hellmaker posted:There's no argument to be had with someone that doesn't want to or is willing to understand that the world is not a black and white board with good and evil on it. Instead of just spewing bullshit from twitter and outrage actually provide solutions. There is more to the situation then a 140 character tweet. There was an American immigration process prior to 2014, when Barack Obama announced the goal of his administration was to pursue an Aggressive Deterrence Strategy, and began seven years of hurling children into dog cages for the crime of their blood-taint, and sterilizing women for the crime of their fecundity. The country still functioned, back before Democrats instituted a policy of "if we torture them enough in the process of sending them home, they'll stop coming." The strategy of deterrence- the policy of torturing them in the hopes of stopping them from coming over- has failed. It did not stop immigration. It did not neutralize immigration as a Republican wedge issue. It did not win over republican voters. The only thing it produced, aside from an ever-growing pile of brown bodies, is you, and the rest of the sunk-cost-fallacy brigade, reduced to having to argue the problem with Trump's camps was he wasn't torturing them the ~right~ way, whereas Joe Biden will. There is not an amount of pain that can be can inflicted on them that will add exculpatory nuance to the statement "we thought hurting these people would serve our goals, and, embarrassingly, it turns out we were wrong." The only thing their continued suffering can accomplish is letting the people who started it save face. And as the extended tantrum over nomenclature for ethnic hygiene quality assurance facilities has demonstrated, it has failed even at that. Once upon a time, some guy by the name of John Kerry asked a question: "how do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a lie." It cuts to the heart of the issue very neatly, imo. How can a political party admit that it has inflicted a tremendous amount of suffering, and gained nothing in return? In the modern age, the answer is very simple: it cannot. Until there is a sea change in the halls of power, we will never leave Afghanistan. We will never leave Iraq. And we will never close the camps on the border. All the dancing around how the situation became ~nuanced~ on 1/20/21 is to avoid describing the first and most fundamental rule of American political reality: brown bodies are cheap, and admitting wrongdoing is expensive. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 1, 2021 01:20
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:There was an American immigration process prior to 2014, when Barack Obama announced the goal of his administration was to pursue an Aggressive Deterrence Strategy, and began seven years of hurling children into dog cages for the crime of their blood-taint, and sterilizing women for the crime of their fecundity. The country still functioned, back before Democrats instituted a policy of "if we torture them enough in the process of sending them home, they'll stop coming." Just because the people you disagree with are not responding to real posts and posting at perceived ones, doesn't mean that's a good idea for you to. The poster your quoting isn't the suppporter of brown child torture you want them to be. I don't like UCS Hellmaker's posts either, but this is just you creating strawmen.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:32
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Here's the thing, I get deployed by fema? I will be down there giving aide, and I will do it to provide care for these people. Not shitpost at others that they dont know what real harm is or what the name of a camp is. I can actually provide aide and if authorized I can and will go down there to do so for these kids. I can provide a level of care and humane treatment. Not scream at hypothetical enemies like most of the people here are. Aruan has a point, put your money where your mouth is, provide aide or go there and do it yourself or shut up. I can get deployed at any time and go to national disasters and humanitarian crisis as part of my job, I can say I can help and do it, not scream endlessly at a windmill to try and own others. Saying that YOU can't change anything is wrong, anyone can do something to enact change. It just means not staring at your computer looking for excuses on what theres nothing that will ever change so why bother.
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Apr 1, 2021 02:56
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That’s good, but what are you doing to restructure the edifice that produces that suffering?
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Apr 1, 2021 03:05
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Ruzihm posted:Speaking of JPT's excellent posts, I'm curious if we can get a followup on this I'm a little swapped with a few other things at the moment. It's an interesting argument that appears to be well thought out and there a few folks I'm trying to reach out to confirm a few things.
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Apr 1, 2021 03:27
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Jaxyon posted:"Canada wouldn't allow this kind of poo poo" I'm not nor ever been a blanket against "more immigrants". I was saying that moving to any of those countries is not 90% willpower, and if becoming an immigrant in Canada was as easy as driving all your stuff up to the border I would have left during the Bush administration. What they have is programs that require you to have specific skills, or a job offer that the employer has justified to the government as being difficult to fill among the current population. Other countries are very choosy about immigration and still take way more than we do. We need to do far better, that was never in question. This is, in my head anyway, an argument of class more than anything: We already have an army of people who are some combination of under-educated, under-skilled, under-employed and they are shuttling fast food around to pay rent and being asked to please stop leaving their pee-bottles at work. So I'm trying to figure out how this dream of anyone who wants to move here can just do so without approvals or process is going to work economically. Because I see another 1,000 Amazon warehouses under the best of scenarios.
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Apr 1, 2021 03:35
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Here's the thing, I get deployed by fema? I will be down there giving aide, and I will do it to provide care for these people. Not shitpost at others that they dont know what real harm is or what the name of a camp is. I can actually provide aide and if authorized I can and will go down there to do so for these kids. I can provide a level of care and humane treatment. Not scream at hypothetical enemies like most of the people here are. Aruan has a point, put your money where your mouth is, provide aide or go there and do it yourself or shut up. So... you’re not deployed or doing anything to help then other than posting screeds, is the takeaway here? You can provide the aid but you’re not because you haven’t been deployed to? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 1, 2021 04:10
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joepinetree posted:Unless you think that the options are "open borders or children in cages," your argument is simply without basis in reality. Virtually all of the countries in the world with a more generous welfare state than the US also have a higher share of immigrants in the population than the us. Uh, can you link the article associated with that chart? Those numbers as a percent of total population are literally off by an order of magnitude, so they are clearly counting only immigrants within specific visa categories Edit: also, note that the entire purple section of each of the EU countries is probably mutual exchange by Schengen Area, which is not really a situation where those people are trading up in terms of social safety net rather than getting a side-grade As far as I can tell it looks like this chart is only looking at work visas rather than any sort of general immigration, notably Sweden literally has more refugees than this chart is attributing them total immigrants as a percent of the population Here's an estimate of the undocumented immigrant population in the US at 3.2-3.6% https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/votervital/how-many-undocumented-immigrants-are-in-the-united-states-and-who-are-they/ That's literally a larger percent of the US population than the total across all visa types displayed on this chart for the top country. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 04:25
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Thump! posted:So... you’re not deployed or doing anything to help then other than posting screeds, is the takeaway here? You can provide the aid but you’re not because you haven’t been deployed to? So do you know anything at all about anything besides this forum? Because much like many medical licenses, there are state agencies that require you to have an active license with them. And with EMS and first aid you need to be under a medical director for the area your in. I literally cannot act as a first responder unless I am authorized by medical control however can and will go if authorized by FEMA who has the ability to do so, much like I have before for covid and can for tornado and hurricane relief. Does that mean im sitting on my rear end? no, it means that I pay attention and make sure my skills are up to par to go and help while providing aid to local refugee and shelters in my area. Which is much more then anyone here trying to find points to attack others for are doing trying to find areas to go SEE THEY JUST ARE POSTING WORDS. Thanks for showing your asses by not having any basic understanding on how anything works in regards to FEMA deployments or medical licenses. Again its obvious that the goal here is to disect everything to make people out to be monsters instead of discussing solutions or ways to provide aid to be people there. Literally everyone here can find local shelters or refugee groups that would gladly take help in your area, instead its about finding ways to own posting enemies on SA instead of leaving your posting hovel
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Apr 1, 2021 04:30
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I actually volunteer at local shelters and refugee centers, and I donate to the food bank, but that's good too, op.
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Apr 1, 2021 04:55
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Again its obvious that the goal here is to disect everything to make people out to be monsters instead of discussing solutions or ways to provide aid to be people there. Literally everyone here can find local shelters or refugee groups that would gladly take help in your area, instead its about finding ways to own posting enemies on SA instead of leaving your posting hovel I don't understand this argument. We shouldn't criticize the human rights abuses on the border because we could be volunteering somewhere? Posting and volunteering aren't mutually exclusive, but why does this burden fall on 500? 1000? D&D posters and not the government that created these deplorable conditions in the first place?
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Apr 1, 2021 05:01
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BougieBitch posted:Uh, can you link the article associated with that chart? Those numbers as a percent of total population are literally off by an order of magnitude, so they are clearly counting only immigrants within specific categories You are linking an estimate of the number of undocumented immigrants when the chart is very clearly about documented immigration and the type of immigration document they have. Since the argument is "how easy is it to immigrate to a country," the number of documented immigrants is the relevant metric. The source is in the bottom of the image, by the way. And are you seriously, for real, trying to use the number of undocumented immigrants to argue that the US has a more welcoming immigration system than these other countries? That is just self evidently ridiculous. UCS Hellmaker posted:
This is ridiculous and absurd. Volunteering at your local shelter or donating to your refugee group may be great, but it will do jack poo poo about children in detention facilities. And we don't even have to fight over solutions: the legal precedents as to how to treat minors is already there. The Flores settlement already says exactly what should be done. Except that every administration since then has fought the Flores settlement in courts, either trying to modify it, or trying to prevent its enforcement, as I have already documented in this very thread. This isn't a matter of not knowing how to technically do something. This is a matter of politics and politicians not wanting to look soft on immigration. Like, allowing access to legal representation isn't some super complicated task. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 05:05
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joepinetree posted:You are linking an estimate of the number of undocumented immigrants when the chart is very clearly about documented immigration and the type of immigration document they have. Since the argument is "how easy is it to immigrate to a country," the number of documented immigrants is the relevant metric. No, I'm saying the chart is transparently wrong because it is estimating that no country measured has more than 2.5% immigrants and only 4 have over 1%, which is, as I said, a literal order of magnitude off. Comparing the visa immigration of other countries to the refugees in the US is a total non-sequitur, and that is literally what you were doing here by segueing from: joepinetree posted:Unless you think that the options are "open borders or children in cages," your argument is simply without basis in reality. Virtually all of the countries in the world with a more generous welfare state than the US also have a higher share of immigrants in the population than the us. Which is talking about "children in cages" aka refugees in refugee camps to this: Which is specifically talking only about adult immigrants who successfully apply for a visa in the country specified. As I posted literally a page ago, the record of the countries on that chart WRT to treatment of refugees is incredibly dire. Here's some examples: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/9/25/refugees-accuse-greece-of-pushing-them-back-out-to-sea https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54082201 https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/france-commits-to-welcoming-more-refugees-despite-reception-crisis/ https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/07/16/seven-years-suffering-australias-asylum-seekers-refugees https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/1/17/why-russia-refuses-to-give-refugee-status-to-syrians When people talk about "indefinite detention of refugees" when the duration of the stay is 15 days, you create a completely nonsense narrative. "Indefinite detention of refugees" is what Australia and Greece do when they shunt them off onto remote islands so they never have any hope of entering the country proper. quote:"It's a time bomb that finally exploded," he said, adding that people had been kept in "inhumane conditions" at the site for years. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 05:49
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Here's the thing, I get deployed by fema? I will be down there giving aide, and I will do it to provide care for these people. Not shitpost at others that they dont know what real harm is or what the name of a camp is. I can actually provide aide and if authorized I can and will go down there to do so for these kids. I can provide a level of care and humane treatment. Not scream at hypothetical enemies like most of the people here are. Aruan has a point, put your money where your mouth is, provide aide or go there and do it yourself or shut up. This is just the liberal version of the conservative quip "Fine, you want these immigrants in your country? Let them live in your house." No amount of individuals performing humanitarian aid is going to prevent this administration from continuing their barbaric treatment of immigrants. If this administration was treating people humanely like they campaigned on, individual humanitarian aid would not be necessary. This isn't a complex argument, it's just one you're not willing to consider because of partisanship.
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Apr 1, 2021 06:56
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BougieBitch posted:No, I'm saying the chart is transparently wrong because it is estimating that no country measured has more than 2.5% immigrants and only 4 have over 1%, which is, as I said, a literal order of magnitude off. Comparing the visa immigration of other countries to the refugees in the US is a total non-sequitur, and that is literally what you were doing here by segueing from: No, the argument that was made was that "open borders" was an impossibility because of costs to welfare state, and I pointed out that countries with more generous welfare states have allowed more immigrants, since that is the comparison in how open immigration systems are. Immigrant is a separate category than refugee, and it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about while insisting, while posting completely irrelevant links, that the data is wrong. Again, you have, for the second time now, called the chart transparently wrong while posting completely irrelevant links to disprove it.
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Apr 1, 2021 08:15
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BougieBitch posted:No, I'm saying the chart is transparently wrong because it is estimating that no country measured has more than 2.5% immigrants and only 4 have over 1%, which is, as I said, a literal order of magnitude off. "Charts show the share of visas distributed in 2011". the united states has a pretty low foreign-born population, in part because of its restrictive immigration policy. i don't get why you're trying to argue against this fact?
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Apr 1, 2021 11:15
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joepinetree posted:No, the argument that was made was that "open borders" was an impossibility because of costs to welfare state, and I pointed out that countries with more generous welfare states have allowed more immigrants, since that is the comparison in how open immigration systems are. Immigrant is a separate category than refugee, and it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about while insisting, while posting completely irrelevant links, that the data is wrong. Your chart doesn't show literally anything you're claiming it does because the data you're presenting has absolutely no probative value toward the point you're trying to make; which is exacerbated because you've concealed the source and refused to provide it when asked. Taking a screenshot of a tiny hyperlink that can't be clicked is not providing a source. Half that chart is dedicated to just showing breakdowns in immigration types, and you've provided zero information on the methodology of that breakdown, which is important because at cursory glance the left side of the chart appears to include a whole bunch of poo poo that we're not talking about and is not remotely analogous to the type of immigration anyone is referencing. This chart is context-less numbers slapped against a wall like some sort of cargo-cult attempt at data-driven argumentation that lacks any sort of actual analytic backing. A chart that shows Switzerland lets a ton of temporary workers in from only rich white European countries because of mutual free-movement treaties is not reflective on a welfare state's ability to absorb un-constrained immigration. For one, most of those countries don't have birth-right citizenship, and more importantly from what can be gleaned from that chart that you are attempting to point at as evidence of unlimited ability to absorb immigration is mostly consisting of immigration of people that either aren't allowed to make use of the welfare state's services, are coming from an equivalent welfare state by means of mutual treaty, or both. Of course, I'm not incredibly confident of that analysis because you haven't posted the relevant information that makes that number vomit mean anything in the context of this discussion so I'm really doing my best to guess.
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Apr 1, 2021 12:52
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Posting a chart showing 3 of the top 5 immigration friendly countries in the world are Australia, Russia and Singapore to own the libs is truly something awful, but no that’s not actually how that works. Prior to Trump, and hopefully once again after the pandemic, the US has nearly always been a top 5 country for family based and humanitarian visas. That Russia allows a couple of million Kazakhs and Turkmen a year conditional access to Moscow to work in construction until their bodies break down, or that Singapore allows in as many rich people as it can possibly bleed dry for cost of living while never giving them citizenship, is not particularly relevant to this conversation IMO.
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Apr 1, 2021 14:27
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That chart appears to be from this New York Times article, which links to this site, which appears to promote a book. I can't find the chart itself on that site though, so it may have come from the book itself. Here's a higher quality version:  The data itself is from 2011 as well, so I don't know whether it is even relevant today.
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Apr 1, 2021 14:58
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