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I propose a compromise. We set up a Visitor's Center nearby that has a historically accurate diorama of the landing site as it was in 1969, with US flag and Eagle lander and little action figures of Armstrong and Aldrin (or full-size mannequins, depends on if it's a scale model or full-size), with the Orbiter hanging above it all from a string in the ceiling. And nearby, under a protective dome to shield it from meteors and excess rads, is the actual site preserved as-is, footprints and faded lovely flag, and if the Apollo crew wants, they can put up the flags of their new countries nearby.
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Apr 1, 2021 14:57
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TDS posted:A good point. Allow me to propose an alternative: I second these. While I, as well as everyone else, hopes for a peaceful future, the historical process showed a persistent resistance against socialism. Sadly, the revolution still requires guards. Having the means to nullify nuclear missiles will at least restrict the destruction to the battlefield.
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Apr 1, 2021 15:04
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The only political entity that should be raising the USA flag at all is the US government. Which doesn't exist, so it's a moot point. Thank the astronauts, put down a plaque or two and go find the secret gladio/nazi moon base
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Apr 1, 2021 16:01
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Crazycryodude posted:Is the original flag even still there? If it hasn't turned into a few scraps of unidentifiable nylon from decades of exposure to micrometeorites, cosmic radiation, and some serious heating/cooling cycles it was never designed for, it's probably at least bleached out into a grey square rather than a recognizable flag. And like gently caress am I going to vote for printing up a fresh USA flag just to give the Joint Chiefs a propaganda coup, they've been dead and gone for decades and good riddance. We might have to bring a red flag by necessity if we want a recognizable flag, unless the point is to go prop up a tattered grey rag which I guess does send a message too, although maybe not the one we're hoping for. //If it helps people, the original Apollo flags still exists today in our timeline, theyre almost certainly bleached white by now but the later ones are still casting visible shadows in photos. As for how faded the flag is in 1982 it hink having them be almost white would be reasonable. Also the Final Liberation Front supports some sort of Apollo 11 anniversary event but considering the divisiveness over flag raising, the details should be put to a vote or be for the Lunars to decide with one option being to raise the knocked over flag.
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Apr 1, 2021 17:00
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I mean from a historical and archaeological stand point it's a huge loving deal since its the first time humanity directly interacted/landed on another body. That's kinda a huge loving deal even in this period of solar exploration. But politics gotta politics I guess. Also you can literally have a display that says "Hey, their motivation for this was kinda sus but also this was a big loving deal for xyz". Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 17:04
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If we want to treat the Apollo 11 landing site as a historical site I'd just leave it entirely alone, if we start walking all over the place and messing with things and putting down new flags the archaeologists would probably be pretty pissed anyways. Build a museum next door, maybe, in the future. Invite the three dudes up to Lunagrad, have a ceremony, all that good stuff, but I don't know that we really need to mess with the site at all, especially given the disagreements over what exactly to do with it if we do go there. Inviting them back up for some kind of ceremony is totally cool, but yeah maybe let the locals figure out the details of what and where. I'd personally prefer some kind of ceremony in Lunagrad rather than hiking out into the sticks anyways.
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Apr 1, 2021 17:16
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Crazycryodude posted:If we want to treat the Apollo 11 landing site as a historical site I'd just leave it entirely alone, if we start walking all over the place and messing with things and putting down new flags the archaeologists would probably be pretty pissed anyways. Build a museum next door, maybe, in the future. Invite the three dudes up to Lunagrad, have a ceremony, all that good stuff, but I don't know that we really need to mess with the site at all, especially given the disagreements over what exactly to do with it if we do go there. As an IRL archaeologist we wouldn't really be pissed depending on what you actually did. Replica American flags wouldn't be a huge deal but all the foot prints would given that one of THE major site components would be the foot prints of the astronauts. This would 100% be a site that would be recommended for preservation. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 17:20
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Telsa Cola posted:As an IRL archaeologist we wouldn't really be pissed depending on what you actually did. Replica American flags wouldn't be a huge deal but all the foot prints would given that one of THE major site components would be the foot prints of the astronauts. This would 100% be a site that would be recommended for preservation. So, raise a framework around the actual site, so it can't be disturbed by micrometeorites or footprints or future hypothetical terraforming? I'm trying to think of what would be involved in preserving the site when the important thing is some footprints in the dust.
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Apr 1, 2021 17:27
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Servetus posted:So, raise a framework around the actual site, so it can't be disturbed by micrometeorites or footprints or future hypothetical terraforming? I'm trying to think of what would be involved in preserving the site when the important thing is some footprints in the dust. It's not just the foot prints but there are several ways to answer your question that ultimately rely on your budget and how much you want to future proof. On one end a dome of some sort would basically mean you don't have to worry about any disturbances up to and including terraforming. You could also loop this site into a series of parks or one park that preserves the orignal lunar landscape for future generations once/if the moon gets terraformed. On the other hand you could simply swap a replacement flag in and maybe spray some quick setting plaster/glue on the prints to help maintain their structural integrity for longer. This is cheap but upkeep is going to be fairly frequent and it's not really going to be helpful it it gets pegged with a meteor or whatever. In the long run the dome is probably more cost efficient because (assuming we have decent historic preservation laws) you are going to constantly have to deal with/work around it otherwise. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 18:30
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I am in favor of the Richard Milhouse Nixon Memorial Apollo Dome name pending approval
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Apr 1, 2021 18:44
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Asterite34 posted:I am in favor of the Richard Milhouse Nixon Memorial Apollo Dome name pending approval We’ll have a tasteful water feature by the gate.
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Apr 1, 2021 19:07
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To throw in another idea into the observer status discussion, I think it would be helpful if there was a way for 'secondary' leftist groups in a country to be part of the Cominterp. My original idea was that observer status (or 'secondary delegate status' since i think observer would be better for monarchist/capitalist states/parties) could be given to the Japanese Socialist Party [which could give us more wiggle room in the final agreement with Japan] and the Indian Naxalite rebels [we can tell the Indian government its part of the deal to get them to stop attacking] and while they wouldnt have voting powers they could hold committee chairs and such.
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Apr 1, 2021 19:17
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I'd recommend that the landing site could be turned into a Lunar Aerospace Museum, charting the whole of humanity's path to the stars and having the US landing site and flag as part of the tour. It doesn't have to be a political memorial when it could be educational
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Apr 1, 2021 19:32
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Pacho posted:I'd recommend that the landing site could be turned into a Lunar Aerospace Museum, charting the whole of humanity's path to the stars and having the US landing site and flag as part of the tour. It doesn't have to be a political memorial when it could be educational Yeah this is similar to something I was toying with.
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Apr 1, 2021 19:37
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Pacho posted:I'd recommend that the landing site could be turned into a Lunar Aerospace Museum, charting the whole of humanity's path to the stars and having the US landing site and flag as part of the tour. It doesn't have to be a political memorial when it could be educational I like this idea, gives the LSR a real feeling of history and culture, get some tourism. It would be a good place to stash the Luna and Tranquility once they're properly decommissioned, they'd make great display pieces. Heck, maybe we can put the Roswell craft on display if we ever fully declassify the thing and have wrung all the useful science we can out of it. ...hmm, say, when DC got hit with a tactical nuke, I don't suppose the Smithsonian survived? putting the Wright Flyer up there would be a treat.
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Apr 1, 2021 19:42
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The Cascadian Workers Collective has two pieces of legislation to propose;quote:A New Universal Bill of Rights quote:The World Forum We would be open to suggestions of additions to the UBR, and debate on the last point of the WF. There will also be a forthcoming post about supported legislation from the CWC soon.
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Apr 1, 2021 20:00
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NewMars posted:7. The Bureau of Environmental Protection, Conservation and Restoration Act: Just because the radiation has been cleaned up doesn't mean that the damage is gone. Much of the world's biodiversity has been burned in flame and the knock-on effects may provide complete disaster in the future. In order to forestall this and other threats to the only green world we know, this act would formalize the creation of a comintern body devoted to protecting the wild spaces of the world, as well as working to restore those areas still ruined and to forestall future destruction through research into and implementation of low-impact industry and city design, the creation of international parks and conservation areas and the consolidation of existing efforts internationally. The Protectorate of the Outer Banks fully supports this measure, as we have taken steps to preserve our unique ecological culture, such as the Banker horses.
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Apr 1, 2021 20:06
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zanni posted:The Cascadian Workers Collective has two pieces of legislation to propose; The NOMADs support both bills!
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Apr 1, 2021 20:16
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zanni posted:The Cascadian Workers Collective has two pieces of legislation to propose; While the FLFKA supports this, the second to last point may be a sticking point with our more... "centralized" members. Wrt to the WF proposal, itd be helpful to know what international organizations are still extant. Like are the International Criminal Court and International Court of Justice still functioning? I figure the World Bank and International Monetary Fund are gone, what about more apolitical ones? And did any UN organizations survive on their own, maybe the Universal Postal Union and World Health Organization? Also the Japanese UN has to be a recreation, maybe with high level officials from the real one, but I find it most likely that either the Pre-GRW UN formally or informally dissolved or its remnants are puttering around in Switzerland. Communist Zombie fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 21:32
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I'd be very willing to support the apollo landing museum idea. Also, while we're here. What are we going to do re: the awakened and sleeping cydonian sleepers and the fact of the alien civil war? We've got to start repatriating/freeing them at some point and we've got to start telling people about the latter.
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Apr 2, 2021 01:04
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NewMars posted:I'd be very willing to support the apollo landing museum idea. Also, while we're here. What are we going to do re: the awakened and sleeping cydonian sleepers and the fact of the alien civil war? We've got to start repatriating/freeing them at some point and we've got to start telling people about the latter. Yeah, I agree. We also have to consider members of the Cyclops' crew that are from the non-comintern parts of the former US. I'd imagine that we probably should allow them to return to those parts if they wish to do so, which raises some questions of what happens if they do, particularly wrt to any kind of sensitive info, if there is any. Because of that it may be easier to make stuff regarding Cydonia declassified sooner rather than later.
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Apr 2, 2021 01:22
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For the cyclops and U-boat crew I'd suggest that the debriefing/psychological XCOM team pick a group of the ones they consider ready to travel to earth, do a press conference informing the world that an alien facility has been found on Mars, that it apparently belongs to the Roswell aliens, that there are humans in stasis and that MOSA is 24/7 investigating to release them. Then have the survivors say some words. Then we'll organize a world tour showing them the bright socialist future with plenty of cameras and let them go wherever they want afterwards with the warning that we cant guarantee their safety in non-aligned former US polities. We may call it the Bring Them Home Initiative e1: Since it wasn't clear, participation in the world tour is non-mandatory in order to be released but we hope the majority of the group is enthusiastic to know the land of the future e2: The press conference would be after our diplomatic policy is set for the period and under the schedule the XCOM team gives us for what/when info can be safely released to the general public Pacho fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 01:46
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Pacho posted:For the cyclops and U-boat crew I'd suggest that the debriefing/psychological XCOM team pick a group of the ones they consider ready to travel to earth, do a press conference informing the world that an alien facility has been found on Mars, that it apparently belongs to the Roswell aliens, that there are humans in stasis and that MOSA is 24/7 investigating to release them. Then have the survivors say some words. Have them do a world tour showing them the bright socialist future with plenty of cameras and let them go wherever they want afterwards with the warning that we cant guarantee their safety in non-aligned former US polities. We may call it the Bring Them Home Initiative Seconded
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Apr 2, 2021 01:52
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Pacho posted:For the cyclops and U-boat crew I'd suggest that the debriefing/psychological XCOM team pick a group of the ones they consider ready to travel to earth, do a press conference informing the world that an alien facility has been found on Mars, that it apparently belongs to the Roswell aliens, that there are humans in stasis and that MOSA is 24/7 investigating to release them. Then have the survivors say some words. Have them do a world tour showing them the bright socialist future with plenty of cameras and let them go wherever they want afterwards with the warning that we cant guarantee their safety in non-aligned former US polities. We may call it the Bring Them Home Initiative Seconded on the condition that they don't have to be in the tour to get released/repatriated. While I'm here, might as well round out the Bureau proposals with: 11. The Bureau of Public Health Act: This will create an international organization devoted to increasing the medical welfare of the entire globe. Divisions will include vaccination programs, warzone medical teams and the creation of international healthcare standards as well as the means to uplift medical sectors in comintern countries to meet them.
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Apr 2, 2021 01:53
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NewMars posted:
Enthusiastically seconded!
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Apr 2, 2021 02:05
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NewMars posted:Seconded on the condition that they don't have to be in the tour to get released/repatriated. Amendment proposed: This should include all human colonies, outposts and other non-earth based settlements.
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Apr 2, 2021 02:22
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Pacho posted:For the cyclops and U-boat crew I'd suggest that the debriefing/psychological XCOM team pick a group of the ones they consider ready to travel to earth, do a press conference informing the world that an alien facility has been found on Mars, that it apparently belongs to the Roswell aliens, that there are humans in stasis and that MOSA is 24/7 investigating to release them. Then have the survivors say some words. Have them do a world tour showing them the bright socialist future with plenty of cameras and let them go wherever they want afterwards with the warning that we cant guarantee their safety in non-aligned former US polities. We may call it the Bring Them Home Initiative
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Apr 2, 2021 02:28
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edited the Bring Them Home Proposal to take New Mars and Asterite's points into account
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Apr 2, 2021 02:59
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Other xenoarchaeology musings Excavation in low/zero G would absolutely suck. Excavation in anything fine and sandy always sucks so Mars would be extra fun. Micrometeorite impacts being the new "Ugh there is a loving cow in the trench/unit" except worse.
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Apr 2, 2021 16:18
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Telsa Cola posted:Other xenoarchaeology musings Can you explain how low g excavation would suck? Presuming the space suit is flexible enough to not really get in the way, and I figure TNE suits to be atleast as flexible as the Artemis suits.
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Apr 2, 2021 17:35
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Communist Zombie posted:Can you explain how low g excavation would suck? Presuming the space suit is flexible enough to not really get in the way, and I figure TNE suits to be atleast as flexible as the Artemis suits. You'd need like normal clothing level flexibility for it to not be awful and it's gotta be pretty slim or otherwise you are going to have to excavate even more than you normally would just so you can have more room to maneuver. Im a really slim dude and I have trouble maneuvering in trench/unit. You factor in that the soils might be super lose and that just sounds like a recipe for bumping into sidewalls and having poo poo collapse/sandfall in constantly. But I was thinking more about dealing with the all the regolith and poo poo that's going to get pulled out while excavating. You'd need to be careful to make sure it stays where you put it and that the soil doesnt intermingle* or float off or whatever. I suppose you could just capsule them off as you go but that's a lot of time and a lot of capsules spent dealing with that. *Excavation generally get's done in levels and there are various ways to determine what is considered a level but for simplicity sake we will go with 10cm increments. You don't want all the poo poo you pulled out at 20 cm to intermingle with the poo poo you pull out at 50cm because they are probably from different times and contexts. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 18:14
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Yea those are good reasons. Skinsuits (technically mechanical counterpressure suit) could be made, though most of the practical research on them would have been done between divergence point and the official start of the 2nd American Civil War by NASA. While punctures are not a failure mode for them fingers apparently can be a bit stiff.
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Apr 2, 2021 18:51
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Hm, while on the topic of archaeology... The DRMN would like to propose Operation Odysseus name courtesy of Comrade VideoWitch In order to uncover the full mysteries and treasures of the Martian ruins, we propose the Comintern commits lab resources to researching Xenoarchaeology and the necessary Troop Transport logistics to put together a full expedition to excavate and study Cydonia. Ideally, volunteers from the Cyclops and U-boat crew can be brought on as advisors, their years of first-hand experience living in the Face should give invaluable insights to help in developing the project. As for who will be selected for this prestigeous and historical mission? Experts selected from throughout the Comintern, as well as those nations who have gained Observer status as outlined by Comrade NewMars' proposal. At the moment, we have sole right to Cydonia. We discovered it, we planted an outpost on it, we have a near-monopoly on ships that can reach it, and we will be the big heroes who rescued these poor castaways in a big PR coup. These newly-rescued crewmen can't be expected to keep everything they saw up there a secret, and tales of their exploits will undoubtably spark Alien Fever in the populace as well as the higher-ups eyeing the possibility of ~*alien technology*~. This will be the perfect carrot to entice fence-sitting powers to sign up for joining all our international treaties and following our standards. And they'll see all their potential rivals signing up and won't want to be the only Great Power left back at the station once the Last Train to Cydonia takes off. This isn't the most high-pressure political gambit, current estimates put completing all the necessary research and construction at about three years, maybe less with the castaway's help. It gives the rest of the world time to sweat and contemplate. This timetable MIGHT be expedited if prospective participant nations would be willing to contribute resources to the effort, of course. Any issues or suggestions?
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Apr 2, 2021 18:52
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Asterite34 posted:Hm, while on the topic of archaeology... Seconded.
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Apr 2, 2021 19:48
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Mars has lower gravity but it isn't zero g. You don't have to worry about anything floating off.
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Apr 2, 2021 20:24
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paragon1 posted:Mars has lower gravity but it isn't zero g. You don't have to worry about anything floating off. Yeah but the fines/dust are going to be a pain in the rear end to deal with and being suited up and having to adjust for lower gravity is going to make it extra annoying. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 20:45
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Knights of Cydonia Proposal This is partially an addendum or clarification to existing proposals and acts. It has been agreed-upon that we need to bring the Martian survivors home; after consultations with my staff and my fellows, I believe I have an idea on how best to undertake this, and would like to propose a formal process for returning these abductees. Firstly: the Martian survivors are to be collected ASAP, made ready for transport to Earth (excepting those who have stated they do not wish to return), and embarked for home. Shortly before they arrive (which is to say, one or two days), MOSA will make a public announcement to be broadcast worldwide detailing a basic overview of the Mars situation. -Our Martian survey discovered an alien facility on Mars, early last year. -This facility turned out to be host to cryogenic chambers containing abducted humans from several decades ago. It was also abandoned, for reasons which have not been yet determined. -Upon our ship's approach, a group of survivors who had been freed from cryostasis contacted us, and we undertook a rescue mission to secure them and the site. -These survivors were crewmen of a US supply ship and a German U-boat, both lost during the First World War. Provide ship and U-boat names when inevitably asked. -Following a quarantine period to ensure their physical well-being and to bring them up to speed on several decades of lost time, the survivors are returning to Earth, due approximately tomorrow. This will not go into detail on the site, the conditions found there, et cetera. We can say more information will be released later, but keep it simple. Under no circumstances is mention to be made of the spaceships present in dock or the aliens in the cryogenic storage. Following this news announcement, MOSA and XCOM will make a formal announcement for the creation of the survey team for the Mars site, which should be pushed as far up the priority ladder as reasonably possible, and announce that we shall be undertaking further search-and-exploration missions to ensure the safety of Earth and its people. This was largely covered in JR-43 passed last year; this would simply move that up in priority. Following THIS, our diplomats will contact the Japanese and lay out the details for Venusplan. Primed with such a bombshell announcement, the Japanese will likely be much more amenable to undertaking a joint expedition. However, the Mars operation is to be a purely Comintern affair. The Mars survivors will then be landed at Vandenberg Air Base in the People's Republic of California; most of them are Americans and the PRCal is best equipped to give them the best living situation and least culture shock that can be managed in this situation. The German U-boat crew, meanwhile, will be returned to Germany, for a hero's welcome. This should all be undertaken as soon as possible, both because these men have been held on an alien world for long enough, and to take advantage of the current diplomatic and social climate. = = = Fletcher adjusts his glasses. "We must strike a careful balance here. These men have endured unbelievable trials and richly deserve to return to normal lives; they are also, however, worth their weight in gold in terms of their knowledge. All of them should be offered positions of some kind with MOSA, and whether they accept or not, we should keep a careful eye and a low-profile security detail on them. The capitalist powers have never been above poaching or outright kidnapping people to further their cause, and there is no reason to believe that would not be the case with the survivors. Whether making them prominent or keeping them anonymous would serve this purpose better, I cannot say." Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 01:28
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Redeye Flight posted:Knights of Cydonia Proposal "This all sounds very good, Kalmar Union seconds the proposal. We would like to add that while it's preferable we recruit them into X-COM or MOSA in general, the offer should still include everything else ComInterp can offer. If they wish to remain a nautical sailor there are still ships they can serve on, if they wish to retire to become a farmer I'm sure we can find a decent plot, if they wish to help rebuild there's always need for more manpower. The point being, the offer shouldn't be restricted to just what MOSA can offer."
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Apr 3, 2021 01:57
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Deliberations are closed! I'll get these compiled (and add the missing content to the last update) and then we'll get to voting!
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Apr 3, 2021 09:06
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Redeye Flight posted:Knights of Cydonia Proposal I have my reservations about parts of this. The Cydonia ruins raise all sorts of questions that the other powers will be asking us, and once we make it clear no answers at all will be forthcoming, they'll go after the rescued prisoners looking for intel. Remember that by and large these people aren't Comintern citizens. Some of them may originate from geographical locations now within the Comintern (though not all by any stretch), but even the ones that do may not have any loyalty to our agenda. A security detail and an oath of secrecy is all well and good, but can you make any guarantee they won't talk when made an offer of untold riches, or coerced by unethical means? Can you give them a fake molar full of cyanide and trust them to use it to prevent being captured and tortured until they talk? Are you prepared to send a team to silence them if they decide to simply share what they know willingly because why should they care about Communism? These are the sorts of dilemmas we face here. If they're allowed any freedom of movement, everything those crewmen know is likely to get out, and if it comes out while we're cloaking everything in secrecy, then we've wasted a lot of potential political goodwill. Better to reveal at least some of what they know (ideally we'd keep the frozen Martians a secret if possible), and use this to generate positive buzz, and with the potential prize of being allowed a seat on the exploratory mission, extract enormous diplomatic concessions and possibly pull another version of what we did to the Arab League. The crewmen stop being a threat to national security if their adventures aren't as strictly classified. They could write their bloody memoirs and it would only help us gain public support for a research expedition. I will say, I am willing to push the VENUSPLAN overtures until after the crewmen are home and press conferences are made, simply to accelerate their safe return. And as you say, a general buzz about the other planets might make it more tempting in the (utterly in vain, most likely) hope of finding Venusian ruins.
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Apr 5, 2021 20:01
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