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Hilario Baldness posted:Is that seriously a Stalin quote? his actual poetry isn't terribly exciting but it's still way better than that
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Apr 1, 2021 11:10
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smarxist posted:the pantheon of batshit insane political charts may have a new ascendant quote:Localism versus Corruption's Gravity lol the whigs made their own political chart
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Apr 1, 2021 14:40
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bedpan posted:In HOI4 you can make Trotsky the general secretary of communist mexico. And if you don't want him as the leader you can still get him in your cabinet. youre welcome
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Apr 1, 2021 16:39
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Doctor Nick posted:excellent, thank you for this. In particular, I'm interested in how rent extraction came to be regarded as a good thing; both Adam Smith and Marx abhorred that poo poo. i think in later volumes of capital marx goes into more depth about the way that capital, land, and labor all SEEM to contribute value to commodities produced on/with/by them such that everyone involved assumes that rents and profits are just payments proportionate to services rendered rather than state-backed extortion. michael heinrich touches on this lightly in his capital explainer
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Apr 1, 2021 17:18
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maybe I’m just too simple (or stubborn) to understand the full l complexities of the issue, but the labor theory of value has always seemed self evident and unassailable to me since I learned the rudiments of it in high school and I never really felt the need to do a deep dive into the philosophical and economic mechanics of it
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Apr 1, 2021 17:35
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i mean hell it made plenty of sense to people like smith and ricardo. the trickier (but still really simple and elegant once you see it imo) part is connecting the ltv to the concept of surplus value in specific, by being very clear that it's labor-POWER, not labor, which a worker sells to a capitalist by the day or by the hour. then you have to realize that the law of value is one (powerful) tendency pulling really-existing prices and profits in a particular direction, with generalized capitalist investment and return across the market acting as a contradicting tendency credit to mila kunis for this link, which i saw a little while ago and appreciated the graphs and data of https://hongtuzi.medium.com/addressing-common-criticisms-of-the-labor-theory-of-value-bdf49281fab
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Apr 1, 2021 17:43
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indigi posted:maybe I’m just too simple (or stubborn) to understand the full l complexities of the issue, but the labor theory of value has always seemed self evident and unassailable to me since I learned the rudiments of it in high school and I never really felt the need to do a deep dive into the philosophical and economic mechanics of it All liberals can do is twist themselves into knots in an effort to refute ltov. In the same way they defend the existence of the us senate or electoral college. It's all kafaybe meant to keep leftists arguing in circles with the convinced liberals rather than engaging with the working class
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Apr 1, 2021 17:44
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Ferrinus posted:l it's labor-POWER, not labor, which a worker sells to a capitalist by the day or by the hour. ok this distinction I don’t understand at all. hopefully I’ll be able to read that article on lunch break today it seems interesting
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Apr 1, 2021 17:49
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smarxist posted:the pantheon of batshit insane political charts may have a new ascendant this is a model of how a lava lamp works, I'm sure of it
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Apr 1, 2021 17:52
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indigi posted:maybe I’m just too simple (or stubborn) to understand the full l complexities of the issue, but the labor theory of value has always seemed self evident and unassailable to me since I learned the rudiments of it in high school and I never really felt the need to do a deep dive into the philosophical and economic mechanics of it if you reject the idea that private property is some unassailable inalienable right then LTV makes complete and perfect sense, as does communism. individualism is a large component of the brain disease smarxist fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 17:53
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Apr 1, 2021 17:54
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indigi posted:ok this distinction I don’t understand at all. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/ wage-labor is a commodity loosely corresponding to your physical health and life-force multiplied by your level of skill and training. the use-value of labor-power is that, if you consume it correctly, you get actual work. this is roughly analogous to how, if you consume a sandwich correctly (rather than dropping it or something) you get nutrition. the value of labor power, on the other hand, is the same as the value of anything else - it's the socially necessary labor time to regenerate it. so a day's worth of labor power has the value of three square meals, one day's rent, one day's worth of clothing, etc. this values with cultural context but it's in principle possible to calculate. in the simplest model, a capitalist buys one day's worth of your labor-power for its full, fair value: enough money for you to be able to buy the resources to keep yourself alive for one day. then the capitalist consumes your labor-power and gets to enjoy the use-value of actual useful work being done. this is a general factor of commodity exchange - when you sell a commodity, you get money equal to its value, but the other guy gets to enjoy its use-value, so like if you sell a book you're paid for it but you no longer get to read it whenever you like. the special property of labor-power is that, in the course of being expended, it can actually generate more value than it had to start with. as in, it might only take you a day of fishing to catch enough fish to feed yourself for two days. this is actually a necessary precondition for human life to be possible at all, since if labor-power couldn't be expended to for more value than it had to start with it would be impossible for anyone to have even a sliver of free time not spent in self-preservation, or perhaps to even feed themselves at all. under capitalism, all that surplus goes to the capitalist rather than to you, and yet, because they're not buying your LABOR (labor per se can't be bought any more than you can buy "experience of eating a sandwich") but your LABOR-POWER (a concrete commodity which they then get to dispose of) it's impossible to argue in terms of liberal free exchange that you haven't been paid in full for what you sold or that it's not within the capitalist's rights to work you all day long (actually you can sort of do this last part on the terms of preserving your future labor-power but as marx says, between equal rights force decides) or w/e it should be noted that it's perfectly possible to consume labor-power "wrong" and not get maximum or even any value from it, like if you hire a worker but that worker just goofs off all day. it's up to the capitalist to wring all the value they can out of their commodity for the time they're renting it, hence overbearing managers, placards warning against "time theft", etc
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Apr 1, 2021 18:09
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don't tread on me
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Apr 1, 2021 18:13
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Ferrinus posted:it should be noted that it's perfectly possible to consume labor-power "wrong" and not get maximum or even any value from it, like if you hire a worker but that worker just goofs off all day. it's up to the capitalist to wring all the value they can out of their commodity for the time they're renting it, hence overbearing managers, placards warning against "time theft", etc this is why slowing down and monkeywrenching are the ultimate praxis 
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Apr 1, 2021 19:00
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https://twitter.com/Renarchat/status/1377632332841115652
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Apr 1, 2021 19:30
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Ferrinus posted:it's impossible to argue in terms of liberal free exchange that you haven't been paid in full for what you sold l ok I understand it better and extremely hate this part of it
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Apr 1, 2021 19:32
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indigi posted:ok I understand it better and extremely hate this part of it i really appreciate it because it makes the connection between what looks, at first blush, like a set of totally abstract economic quantifications and revolutionary theory. why was marx a communist and not just an economic theorist? because he showed that exploitation happens at the point of production and not just exchange, such that the only way to end exploitation is to alter the mode of production rather than the terms of sale (ie reforms that increase the price of labor-power or shorten the working day). ultimately, liberation and liberalism are not compatible and you have to discard one to get the other
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Apr 1, 2021 20:05
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 wanna know what was in that letter
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Apr 1, 2021 23:00
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indigi posted:
cryin an bitcyn about the NEP
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Apr 1, 2021 23:23
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The wikipedia article for labor theory of value is funny; not only is the criticism section the largest one, but half of the summary/abstract bit is dedicated to attacking it as well.
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Apr 1, 2021 23:54
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Ferrinus posted:i did the leg hell yes, legend
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Apr 2, 2021 00:07
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thotsky posted:The wikipedia article for labor theory of value is funny; not only is the criticism section the largest one, but half of the summary/abstract bit is dedicated to attacking it as well. the criticisms of the labour theory of value article itself is three times as long as that article. five times, if you discount the criticism section.
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Apr 2, 2021 00:15
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i say swears online posted:hell yes, legend  thotsky posted:The wikipedia article for labor theory of value is funny; not only is the criticism section the largest one, but half of the summary/abstract bit is dedicated to attacking it as well. 
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Apr 2, 2021 00:15
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Doctor Nick posted:excellent, thank you for this. In particular, I'm interested in how rent extraction came to be regarded as a good thing; both Adam Smith and Marx abhorred that poo poo. you’re welcome! so I am in a “do not have a home” situation right now and I am crashing at friends. once that’s sorted out I am going to post a bit about that, rent extraction on contemporary econ is quite relevant on learning how much of it is bullshit
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Apr 2, 2021 06:08
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dead gay comedy forums posted:you’re welcome! if you’re hard up enough check out the goonbucks thread
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Apr 2, 2021 12:58
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This is especially great because it's such a simple concept if you understand the Marxist definition of the state.
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Apr 3, 2021 08:38
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Pomeroy posted:This is especially great because it's such a simple concept if you understand the Marxist definition of the state. There are whole ideologies who's basic premise and foundational bedrock is just "no, I don't believe you, I think you're lying" in response to this, which makes good faith dialogue with people who believe that totally impossible. Not that the state can't wither away, but that if you express that it inevitably will you're a liar who secretly wants to kill them lol
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Apr 4, 2021 15:24
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Deified Data posted:There are whole ideologies who's basic premise and foundational bedrock is just "no, I don't believe you, I think you're lying" in response to this, which makes good faith dialogue with people who believe that totally impossible. this is a product of liberal idealism. if they were properly dialectical, they could understand that the worker's state will wither away and i secretly want to kill them
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Apr 4, 2021 18:11
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indigi posted:that fact isn't very fun at all
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Apr 5, 2021 00:07
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I still dont have a great grasp on LTV but it feels like one of the big stumbling blocks is that "value" has sort of moralistic overtones to it when, as near as I can tell, Marx just uses it to more or less mean "the total amount of effort to make something." I don't know if this is a problem in other languages
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Apr 5, 2021 01:37
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StashAugustine posted:I still dont have a great grasp on LTV but it feels like one of the big stumbling blocks is that "value" has sort of moralistic overtones to it when, as near as I can tell, Marx just uses it to more or less mean "the total amount of effort to make something." I don't know if this is a problem in other languages althusser wrote a preface to capital in which he bemoans among other things that marx decided to use three different vocabulary terms which all include the word "value". he also advises the first-time reader to straight-up skip part I, which i cannot endorse
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Apr 5, 2021 01:52
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is there some reason that use-value is never translated as "purpose"
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Apr 5, 2021 02:06
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"purpose" is probably too teleological and also doesn't admit that things can have multiple use-values, or new use-values discovered with time, e.g. gold's conductivity only became relevant relatively late in history then "utility" probably smacked too much of utilitarianism
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Apr 5, 2021 03:12
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Ferrinus posted:althusser also advises the first-time reader to straight-up skip part I, which i cannot endorse
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Apr 5, 2021 07:08
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how many catholics read the bible all the way through anyways? you pick up parts of it as you go along, and you put up a picture of the pope on the wall, and you're set. that's what my cousin does
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Apr 5, 2021 07:09
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:how many catholics read the bible all the way through anyways? you pick up parts of it as you go along, and you put up a picture of the pope on the wall, and you're set. that's what my cousin does Catholics have historically been of the opinion that the Bible is best interpreted by the priesthood and explained as homily rather than individually studied by the layman The invention of the moveable type printing press and sudden mass availability of Bibles was one of the major drivers of the Protestant revolt against the catholic church because mass literacy and access to the text became a means of undermining that religious authority Mr. Lobe fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 07:14
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Which is regrettable because there's a lot of fun stuff in the Bible Gideon and Esther are cool stories, and The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard is a perfect rebuttal to a lot of the grinding and microtransaction bullshit in MMORPGs
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Apr 5, 2021 07:27
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:how many catholics read the bible all the way through anyways? you pick up parts of it as you go along, and you put up a picture of the pope on the wall, and you're set. that's what my cousin does I’m pretty sure one of the books of the Tanakh is just a family tree
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Apr 5, 2021 07:38
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alright , guys, today we're going to read from Numbers, chapter 5 verses 1 to 6. four hundred thirty two, ten million six hundred and eighty five thousand nine hundred and seventy two. Three. one trillio
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Apr 5, 2021 08:32
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fr tho, the stretch of joshua, judges, 1 and 2 samuel and 1 and 2 kings has some neat stuff, and then later on daniel is good too. mene mene tekel upharsin bitch
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Apr 5, 2021 08:35
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