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So how exactly is genocide helping those rural people get out poverty?
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Apr 3, 2021 05:26
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What reason is there to not believe that? The Chinese government is controlled by repressive, reactionary CHUD types who are not interested in making sure working class people have living wages, women have equal rights, that people are allowed much freedom from traditional gender roles or that social benefits are extended to the “wrong people.” They’re expansionist dickheads in the pacific, use coded language and censorship to reinforce a belief in a biological racial hierarchy that places their country at the top and are actively participating in genocide. They’re not nice guys, they have no sense of accountability and they’re not friends to anyone but themselves. But they’re not poisoned by a socio psychological disease the way the US right wing is and are capable of doing good things for bad reasons. We should be able to recognize they’re successful at poverty reduction without being on their side.
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Apr 3, 2021 05:38
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Darkest Auer posted:So how exactly is genocide helping those rural people get out poverty? It’s not. A government can be capable of lifting the “right” groups out of poverty and genociding the “wrong” people at the same time. I think that’s what right wing populism traditionally is all about.
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Apr 3, 2021 05:42
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China has done more to address extreme poverty 'than any country in the history of civilization'.
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Apr 3, 2021 06:30
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Heithinn Grasida posted:What reason is there to not believe that? The Chinese government is controlled by repressive, reactionary CHUD types who are not interested in making sure working class people have living wages, Heithinn Grasida posted:I hate the political situation here, but I do think Xi Jinping is a true believer in his brand of right wing populism and legitimately believes what he’s doing is best for China and probably does really care about lifting rural people out of poverty. These are opposite statements. Unless you're giving Xi plausible deniability for anything the government does under his consolidated rule on the old monarchy argument that it just so happens most of his subordinates are rotten independently of their well-meaning leader. Heithinn Grasida posted:Unlike US republicans, the government hasn’t been poisoned by late stage capitalism and insane anti scientific dogma, so they rightfully recognize that developing poor rural areas benefits the whole country. One reason Xi is so popular is that he’s sincere in doing that. You say that like that's the only source of ill in the world when it's very much not. I guess you're trying to say that it's better if they're bad people for the right reasons? Which is dumb and meaningless. By some analyses of the current PRC government, not even really true.
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Apr 3, 2021 06:34
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SlothfulCobra posted:These are opposite statements. Unless you're giving Xi plausible deniability for anything the government does under his consolidated rule on the old monarchy argument that it just so happens most of his subordinates are rotten independently of their well-meaning leader. I don’t see how that follows from what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the CCP, with Xi at its head, are mostly bad people doing a lot of bad things along with some good things, and the good things are probably for bad reasons. They probably believe what they’re doing is legitimately for the best for their country. I don’t agree with them about that. The fact that their core ideology is repulsive doesn’t change the fact that they’ve been competent in some areas, like poverty reduction and the pandemic response, and they’ve believed in those projects for bad, but not cynical reasons. We can still recognize where they’ve been successful without validating their ideology, and we should unless we want to end up as “us vs. them” ideologues.
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Apr 3, 2021 07:16
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Darkest Auer posted:So how exactly is genocide helping those rural people get out poverty? What's happening in Xinjiang is less like the Holocaust and more comparable to the residential schools in Canada or Australia. It is very much part of the poverty alleviation program done in the rest of the country, only the government believes they won't eliminate poverty in Xinjiang without completely reshaping religion and culture in Xinjiang as well.
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Apr 3, 2021 09:28
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Not So Fast posted:What's happening in Xinjiang is less like the Holocaust and more comparable to the residential schools in Canada or Australia.  EDIT: Jesus loving christ. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 10:48
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Btw are there any concrete steps the Chinese government is taking to improve the conditions of migrant workers? It always looked to me that at best it is seen as a necessary evil to develop the country.
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Apr 3, 2021 11:02
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sexpig by night posted:you know we just have, ya know, numbers and statistics right, as well as first hand accounts? You don't need these fake things "Yes we threw your life, your community, your belief systems, and the lives of several generations of your descendants into a meat grinder for the sake of our mid-18th century salon wankery, but the resulting human sausage is statistically 1.00092% more cruelty free now, so therefore" I mean, you're a few words away from a Glorious Mission Civilisatrice here.
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Apr 3, 2021 11:23
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Darkest Auer posted:So how exactly is genocide helping those rural people get out poverty? dead people can't be poor
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Apr 3, 2021 11:38
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:"Yes we threw your life, your community, your belief systems, and the lives of several generations of your descendants into a meat grinder for the sake of our mid-18th century salon wankery, but the resulting human sausage is statistically 1.00092% more cruelty free now, so therefore" i sincerely recommend you read that book i mentioned, considering you said you have never read anything indicating chinese or soviet peasants were better off after communism than before it
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Apr 3, 2021 11:48
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:"Yes we threw your life, your community, your belief systems, and the lives of several generations of your descendants into a meat grinder for the sake of our mid-18th century salon wankery, but the resulting human sausage is statistically 1.00092% more cruelty free now, so therefore" My guy I will not lecture you but I feel duty bound to inform you that you do not have the slightest clue what you're talking about
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Apr 3, 2021 11:59
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Every Chinese person lives under constant unrelenting oppression. The only reason 90% of the Chinese public support their government is because they are a mass of brainwashed automatons incapable of independent thought. Thank goodness there’s no such brainwashing in my society, or my views on this issue might be distorted
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Apr 3, 2021 12:15
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wait
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Apr 3, 2021 12:22
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wait these forums are blocked on the mainland right? don't we have forum rules against people breaking laws? we need to immediately ban anyone who says they're posting from China.
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Apr 3, 2021 13:08
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Benagain posted:wait these forums are blocked on the mainland right? don't we have forum rules against people breaking laws? we need to immediately ban anyone who says they're posting from China.  e: not trying to be an empty shitpost, but this is a phenomenally dumb post that warrants little more. Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 13:37
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Benagain posted:wait these forums are blocked on the mainland right? don't we have forum rules against people breaking laws? we need to immediately ban anyone who says they're posting from China. this Come out your cowards! LMBO VVV Aww, spoiling the fun with your facts there. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 13:45
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Benagain posted:wait these forums are blocked on the mainland right? don't we have forum rules against people breaking laws? we need to immediately ban anyone who says they're posting from China. It's not, but since it uses some google stuff it can be slow to load if you're not using something to block google domains. Privacy badger does it pretty easily.
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Apr 3, 2021 14:05
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poo poo last time I was in China I needed to use a VPN to get on here, things have changed. I'm glad to know the communist party has decided these forums are a worthy source of knowledge.
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Apr 3, 2021 14:35
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e: nvm
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Apr 3, 2021 16:40
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Benagain posted:poo poo last time I was in China I needed to use a VPN to get on here, things have changed. I'm glad to know the communist party has decided these forums are a worthy source of knowledge. That was because Cloudflare used Google captcha against Chinese IP adresses, not because the site was blocked. SA has never been blocked, and at this stage it's probably too dead and gay to ever be.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:50
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Not So Fast posted:What's happening in Xinjiang is less like the Holocaust and more comparable to the residential schools in Canada or Australia. It is very much part of the poverty alleviation program done in the rest of the country, only the government believes they won't eliminate poverty in Xinjiang without completely reshaping religion and culture in Xinjiang as well. If you're talking about the programs to take native and aboriginal children away from their parents to exterminate their culture, I guess it's an apt comparison, but it's still genocide. The theoretical good intention through a lens of racist imperialism also rings a little more hollow because they're doing it to adults and using them for labor and organ harvesting in the meanwhile. On top of that, it seems like there's a lack of any intention to accept any of them as actually being "reformed", because they criminalized so much of the Uighurs and have apparently even done work in identifying them to persecute by DNA and other biometrics, and you can't "reeducate" those away. Also the forced sterilization and abortions to more actively eliminate their genetic presence on the planet. I've even read about them baiting Uighurs back into the country just to persecute them further. You'd have to combine the taking native children away from their families with the height of Jim Crow and the convict leasing system in the early 20th century in the American South with a sprinkling of eugenics and wrapped in the increased efficiency of modern organization and technology. Or to make a lot more quick and convenient of a comparison, basically like the holocaust in Germany before they got around to the death camps (which came fairly late in the whole process so they're not a good barometer).
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Apr 3, 2021 17:47
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Where did you hear that Uyghur organs are being harvested?
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Apr 3, 2021 18:08
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fart simpson posted:i sincerely recommend you read that book i mentioned, considering you said you have never read anything indicating chinese or soviet peasants were better off after communism than before it I think it's more accurate to say that the Soviets mostly destroyed the peasants as the dominant class in the name of transitioning to an urban, industrial society. Conditions for peasants were already improving markedly in Russia before the war and revolution, by way of the abolition of serfdom in the 1860s and land reforms and new agricultural policies in the late 19th and early 20th century that created a new large class of land-owning, modestly well-off peasants. The Soviet state sought to actively eliminate this class and in their collectivization reintroduced many practices that are reminiscent of serfdom. From the revolution to 1946 the Soviet Union experienced the worst famines in Russian history, exacerbated by the ruthless drive towards urbanized industrialism (and the goal of destroying the kulak class), and in Central Asia projects aimed at transforming the native population into new, modern nationalities by way of actively working to destroy their traditional way of life, pastoral nomadism, which in practice mostly resulted in massive death by starvation and an exodus of the native population leading to a russification of countries such as Kazakhstan. On top of this you can add the damage caused by the Civil War and World War II, the active promotion of quack science such as Lysenkoism in agriculture, the mismanagement of ambitious agricultural and industrial projects (especially in the non-Russian and non-European republics) and the disregard for ecological concerns and it truly does not look like the Soviet Union was too good on its rural population, apart from the gains in quality of life that would eventually come as a result of things like mechanization and electrical power. It also bears mentioning that Soviet agriculture never really recovered from the damage done to it in the first half of the 20th century, and pretty much all attempts to revitalize it failed (often causing adverse consequences for local population and nature), and the USSR became ever more dependent on grain imported from the West, especially the US, some of which was aid, but mostly it had to be paid for.
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Apr 3, 2021 20:20
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"reshaping culture" is certainly a take. Eugenic policies that apply to Uyghur women but not Han are official. They are not a secret. Like, China straight up admits it wants to eliminate Muslim culture AND Uighur people and replace them with Han Chinese. You can call it whatever you want. We all know what it is.
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Apr 4, 2021 01:07
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I don't see how China having bad policies towards ethnic minorities disproves the assertion that they have also done a lot to uplift rural people out of poverty.
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Apr 4, 2021 04:07
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SlothfulCobra posted:If you're talking about the programs to take native and aboriginal children away from their parents to exterminate their culture, I guess it's an apt comparison, but it's still genocide. It is, the aboriginal schools are and should be regarded fully as genocide. Usually, nobody contests this, so any extensive deculturation and forced labor programs being considered genocidal shouldn't be controversial after a certain threshold of information about them. And there's been a lot of direct testimony. quote:The theoretical good intention through a lens of racist imperialism also rings a little more hollow because they're doing it to adults and using them for labor and organ harvesting in the meanwhile. Other claims entirely aside, the governmental tweets attempting to 'celebrate' the emancipation and newfound happiness and prosperity of the Uighur people have been absurdly wretched and depressingly straightforward. The tweet from the embassy claiming that Uighur women in the Xinjiang province "were emancipated" and "no longer baby-making machines" was a bit on the nose in a way they weren't intending. Or the one about the happy Uighurs picking cotton.
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Apr 4, 2021 04:38
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Gripweed posted:I don't see how China having bad policies towards ethnic minorities disproves the assertion that they have also done a lot to uplift rural people out of poverty.
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Apr 4, 2021 05:03
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Gripweed posted:I don't see how China having bad policies towards ethnic minorities disproves the assertion that they have also done a lot to uplift rural people out of poverty. It's more just that specific group of rural people definitely aren't being uplifted. Otherwise the claims are unrelated. The idea of improving quality of life without granting political rights also feels weird to me because one way or another they'll just kinda end up getting buffeted by autocratic whims instead of getting the improvements that they specifically want. But I guess democracy's not on the table either way.
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Apr 4, 2021 05:29
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Gripweed posted:I don't see how China having bad policies towards ethnic minorities disproves the assertion that they have also done a lot to uplift rural people out of poverty. They sure are doing a great job uplifting the migrant worker population.
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Apr 4, 2021 05:56
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Like, China straight up admits it wants to eliminate Muslim culture AND Uighur people and replace them with Han Chinese. drat, where did they say they wanted to do that?
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Apr 4, 2021 06:21
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MarcusSA posted:They sure are doing a great job uplifting the migrant worker population. Are they not?
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Apr 4, 2021 07:43
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Mantis42 posted:drat, where did they say they wanted to do that? What I mean is they state it in their official policies, including regular pregnancy checks for Uighur women, the "Pair Up and Form a Family" program to encourage rape, "Incentive Measures Encouraging Uighur-Chinese Intermarriage" policy, forced birth control and banning of Uighur names. Then, of course, there's plenty of quotes by Chinese officials to that effect. This is just the stuff they admit to, but they are not hiding their intentions or anything. They want a uniform Han culture AND people in all of China. Even if you ignore all the reports of human rights abuses, the whole political agenda is explicitly to eliminate Uighurs as a group of people. What could we call this... hmmm... ah I know: Reshaping culture.
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Apr 4, 2021 09:13
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Haramstufe Rot posted:They want a uniform Han culture AND people in all of China. to repeat an earlier question: where did you read that? secondly, the only way to stop uighur culture from interacting with the wider cultural sphere across china, and changing with it, would be to cleave uighuristan into a nationalist islamist state. which is the aim of saudis and americans
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Apr 4, 2021 09:22
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brotha from anatha posted:secondly, the only way to stop uighur culture from interacting with the wider cultural sphere across china, and changing with it, would be to cleave uighuristan into a nationalist islamist state. which is the aim of saudis and americans brotha from anatha posted:where did you read that?
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Apr 4, 2021 09:36
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Haramstufe Rot posted:What I mean is they state it in their official policies, including regular pregnancy checks for Uighur women, the "Pair Up and Form a Family" program to encourage rape, "Incentive Measures Encouraging Uighur-Chinese Intermarriage" policy, forced birth control and banning of Uighur names. Then, of course, there's plenty of quotes by Chinese officials to that effect. drat, so where did the Chinese government admit to all of this?
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Apr 4, 2021 09:54
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brotha from anatha posted:to repeat an earlier question: where did you read that? JFC you're not even trying to be subtle.
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Apr 4, 2021 11:38
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Haramstufe Rot posted:What I mean is they state it in their official policies, including regular pregnancy checks for Uighur women, the "Pair Up and Form a Family" program to encourage rape, "Incentive Measures Encouraging Uighur-Chinese Intermarriage" policy, forced birth control and banning of Uighur names. Then, of course, there's plenty of quotes by Chinese officials to that effect. Do you have any facts to back that up?
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Apr 4, 2021 12:24
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Grouchio posted:It doesn't disprove it so much as it stains the achievement of rural uplifting. Yeah but it would stain everything, wouldn't it? I think that we have to be able to discuss other aspects of Chinese politics without always connecting it to the Uyghurs. Like, we can talk about other USA policies without mentioning the concentration camps or the prison population.
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Apr 4, 2021 12:41
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