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brotha from anatha posted:to repeat an earlier question: where did you read that? Just check Wikipedia op
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Apr 4, 2021 13:09
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wikipedia posted:Marriage incentives and customs
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Apr 4, 2021 13:17
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It seems like the party’s solution to the overabundance of unmarried men due to the single child policy is to assign them muslim wives to turn chinese. What they do with the leftover men is unknown.
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Apr 4, 2021 13:23
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So when the government didn't apply the one child law to ethnic minorities, including Uyghurs, was that them trying to destroy Han culture? I mean, until like a couple years ago even with one child increased to two Han in minority-majority provinces like Xinjiang were actually kept to the old rules, so that must have been Han genocide, right? The only reporting I can find on 'Han marriage incentives' seems to focus entirely on a specific county where this was promoted by the county director, but none offered any evidence this was a national policy beyond some weird rumor mill poo poo (which is silly because in Qiemo it was an open policy not some secret backdoor thing). Also according to every article on it in that one county nobody seemed to be taking the offer, and the official response was 'meh' so don't know why we're getting all 'leftover men' dark.
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Apr 4, 2021 13:34
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I guess in the end, I shouldn't be surprised that the source of these salacious claims is Wikipedia. A very goonish level of intellectual rigor In any case, nothing quoted shows the Chinese government admitting to a program of forced rape, forced sterilization, or the banning of Uyghur names. And the claims that are made are sourced back to outlets such as Voice of America, the US government's foreign propaganda arm Also lol at this: quote:In October 2017, the marriage of a Han Chinese man from Henan Province to an Uyghur woman from Lop County was celebrated on the county's social media page:[123] This is just going to become woke anti-miscegenation isn't it?
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Apr 4, 2021 13:34
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Chomskyan posted:I guess in the end, I shouldn't be surprised that the source of these salacious claims is Wikipedia. A very goonish level of intellectual rigor my favorite bit in an article about this was 'also a year before this one regional head offered this plan some other central government guy took pictures with mixed Tibetan/Chinese families...VERY SINISTER'
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Apr 4, 2021 13:41
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Chomskyan posted:I guess in the end, I shouldn't be surprised that the source of these salacious claims is Wikipedia. A very goonish level of intellectual rigor Just to confirm: the drop in birth rates are also fake, in your opinion? As are all accounts of witnesses? Uighur women and families who fled to Turkey, for example, are straight up lying? The people who disappeared are on vacation or something? There’s like 350 or so video testimonies on that one site alone, but of course you can just tell me they are also fake. Not that it matters what you or I think. Muslims are hated universally across the world, and they are not only killed in China. If there’s one thing that China, India, and the West can agree upon, it’s that Muslims need to be removed. There’ll be no significant pushback. If at all, the West is angry that China did not do this genocide quietly and without so much fuss. And in a few years the Uighurs will be exterminated both as culture and as people, and no one will be the wiser. It just irks me, all that misery, only because Xi and his band of effeminate Han lackeys feel threatened by men who can grow beards and you go and stan for him as if he needs the support.
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Apr 4, 2021 15:41
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I don't dismiss all witness testimony out of hand, and in general I think there's a kernel of truth to what's being said about Xinjiang. I don't deny at all that there's discrimination against Uyghurs. But I see increasingly in the west an environment of complete credulity with whatever accusations are made against China, regardless of the source of information and without consideration of whether it might just be propaganda. I think your claims in particular of Chinese government officials openly admitting to systematic rape and so on represent this kind of credulous acceptance of what's likely just internet disinformation. You also just claimed that the Uyghurs are going to be murdered out of existence in a few years and that's just plainly not true. To navigate a topic like this it will certainly take more than browsing wikipedia and mindlessly accepting the opinion whatever random person on the internet happened to write the page on China
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Apr 4, 2021 16:08
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Haramstufe Rot posted:
This is how these topics always end. "They're harvesting Uighur organs!" -> "Okay actually they're just using their hair for wigs" -> "Okay the wigs are being made BY Uighurs so clearly it's slave labor" - > by next year Uighurs will be literally extinct because Xi is a queer and you love him
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Apr 4, 2021 17:04
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Chomskyan posted:I don't dismiss all witness testimony out of hand, and in general I think there's a kernel of truth to what's being said about Xinjiang. I don't deny at all that there's discrimination against Uyghurs. But I see increasingly in the west an environment of complete credulity with whatever accusations are made against China, regardless of the source of information and without consideration of whether it might just be propaganda. I think your claims in particular of Chinese government officials openly admitting to systematic rape and so on represent this kind of credulous acceptance of what's likely just internet disinformation. You also just claimed that the Uyghurs are going to be murdered out of existence in a few years and that's just plainly not true. To navigate a topic like this it will certainly take more than browsing wikipedia and mindlessly accepting the opinion whatever random person on the internet happened to write the page on China Friend of my wife is Uighur and has family there, and so I take personal testimony over whatever you think. I also don’t care what Tankies or US thinktanks fight about. The most I have ever posted is a link to wikipedia, because I am no ones propaganda repository. Still, in my view, you are a supporter of a fascist and inhuman regime, and that you accuse me if only reading wikipedia is your own problem. The way people like you brush aside the terror of what happens is just so cynical and cruel. And if you, despite hundreds of personal testimonies, and real people who you can talk to, really think it’s all a US Spyop, then what the gently caress do you expect me to post here? By the way, do you believe the Rohingya genocide is also fake?
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Apr 4, 2021 17:15
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sexpig by night posted:This is how these topics always end. This is an absolutely disgusting post. We have documented, verified evidence of the brutality that Uighurs do face so for you to just dismiss it out of hand like some sort of joke is awful.
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Apr 4, 2021 17:24
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A guy with the Chomsky nickname/avatar and denying genocide might be doing an in-character bit
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Apr 4, 2021 17:25
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sexpig by night posted:This is how these topics always end. literally and unironically defending genocide
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Apr 4, 2021 17:28
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sexpig by night posted:This is how these topics always end. The insinuation that Muslims are somehow inferior, are culturally terrorists or somehow need to be reformed (aka their culture destroyed) to be uplifted‘, which is totally rampant itt, is super weird and disgusting and would not be acceptable if we would speak about any other topic. It also has supremo racist undertones. But you don’t even notice and just giggle along with it. So I can also take a swipe as the masculinity of CCP functionaries.
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Apr 4, 2021 17:30
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Somaen posted:A guy with the Chomsky nickname/avatar and denying genocide might be doing an in-character bit Aren't you the francophile who called the states of Western Europe "civilized" countries? A little on the nose e: also a stan for for Navalny, the guy who compares ethnic minorities in Russia to insects, lol Red and Black fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 17:30
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The Rohyngia genocide was clearly real and the result of the American backed regime of noted racist Aung San Suu Kyi and American imperialist Mark Zuckerberg. A natural consequence of capitalism. Fortunately under the new oversight of the generals, supported by the people's glorious Marxist government in China, will no doubt have already put a stop to it and possibly are already placing Burmese men among them in an effort to help stabilise their communities. Doubtless there will be some level of mixed children and less obvious expression of their culture but this is an inevitable result of interaction with the wider Burmese culture and criticism is just a continuation of the American goal of establishing an Islamic fundamentalist Rohynhistan.* *Citation not needed because American goals are obvious. Claims about the intention of the glorious Burmese people must be explicit first person expressions of intention to support any argument about genocide. This post is clearly not about China, apologies for the off topic shitposting.
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Apr 4, 2021 17:31
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Chomskyan posted:Aren't you the francophile who called the states of Western Europe "civilized" countries? A little on the nose No that's what illiterate c-spam tankies were able to grasp from a funny burn on the united states being uncivilized
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Apr 4, 2021 17:32
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Somaen posted:No that's what illiterate c-spam tankies were able to grasp from a funny burn on the united states being uncivilized Somaen posted:you are a loving american mouthbreather ignorant about the world i see Hmm, I don't know dude. Seems pretty open and shut
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Apr 4, 2021 17:34
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Chomskyan posted:Hmm, I don't know dude. Seems pretty open and shut All countries are civilized compared to the US which produced human failures such as yourself Please go through more of my post-history trolling c-spam to own me instead of justifying genocide
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Apr 4, 2021 17:36
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Somaen posted:All countries are civilized compared to the US which produced human failures such as yourself Sure! Speaking of genocide, you were arguing that Navalny's vociferous racist rhetoric in favor of ethnically cleansing Russia didn't matter because there are less minorities in Russia these days. Would you like to explain how that logic works?
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Apr 4, 2021 17:40
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Haramstufe Rot posted:The insinuation that Muslims are somehow inferior, are culturally terrorists or somehow need to be reformed (aka their culture destroyed) to be uplifted‘, which is totally rampant itt, is super weird and disgusting and would not be acceptable if we would speak about any other topic. It also has supremo racist undertones. seems to me that you dont actually care if uighurs are having their organs harvested or not, so long as china is doing something bad
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Apr 4, 2021 17:44
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brotha from anatha posted:seems to me that you dont actually care if uighurs are having their organs harvested or not, so long as china is doing something bad Me? Lmao? Are you quoting the right person? The only reason I have beef with Xi is the suppression and killing of Uighurs. And the only reason why I tee off on posters itt is that in between their ideology shitpost bingo, they start to post disgusting and in my opinion racist cynicisms. I can also write an essay about what I think of Macron and his buddies, or make a list of overt and subvert racist attacks my family experienced in Germany. You know, if you think I am stanning for Western countries. I am not. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 17:56
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sexpig by night posted:This is how these topics always end. The discrepancy between your stance towards China's treatment of Uyghurs and America's treatment of refugees is astonishing, to say the least.
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Apr 4, 2021 18:02
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:The discrepancy between your stance towards China's treatment of Uyghurs and America's treatment of refugees is astonishing, to say the least. I don't think your comparison is apt. A much better analogy would be our continued systemic racism against black people versus what happens at the border. Uyghurs are native Chinese people not refugees.
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Apr 4, 2021 18:08
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With the residential schools in Canada, “Indian” children were ripped from their mothers arms and forcibly taken far away to church-run boarding schools. I wasn’t aware that was alleged to be going on in Xinjiang, can anyone corroborate?
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Apr 4, 2021 18:09
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Chomskyan posted:Sure! Speaking of genocide, you were arguing that Navalny's vociferous racist rhetoric in favor of ethnically cleansing Russia didn't matter because there are less minorities in Russia these days. Would you like to explain how that logic works? That would be difficult by the fact that Navalny never argued for ethnic cleansing, which you would know if you read anything outside of the Grayzone or C-SPAM, such as what he actually said, preferably in Russian. He argued for work visas to immigrants from Central Asia. Hope this helps  I was arguing that getting the proto-fascist country to be ruled by democrats is likely going to be better for all minorities in Russia, compared to the current situation where you have a highly repressive, racist and homophobic proto-fascist state. The clueless idiot bleating about Navalny starting up the gas chambers doesn't matter, yes.Now Chomsky sir, should we believe Uighur women? Or are they CIA plants Somaen fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 18:10
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Juul-Whip posted:With the residential schools in Canada, “Indian” children were ripped from their mothers arms and forcibly taken far away to church-run boarding schools. I wasn’t aware that was alleged to be going on in Xinjiang, can anyone corroborate? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/03/china-parents-of-missing-uyghur-children-describe-horror-of-family-separation/ quote:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/15/china-xinjiang-children-separated-families quote:
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Apr 4, 2021 18:15
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lets be fair, posters like sexpig can play 'just asking questions' about a cultural genocide all they want (because china is good and us is bad), but all of their posts count as de facto toxxes, and when they are inevitably proven wrong they eat an automatic perma. if someone is so sure a genocide isn't happening - like, say, sexpig here - then there's no reason they wouldn't toxx, right? have the courage of your convictions!
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Apr 4, 2021 18:20
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Somaen posted:That would be difficult by the fact that Navalny never argued for ethnic cleansing, which you would know if you read anything outside of the Grayzone or C-SPAM, such as what he actually said, preferably in Russian. He argued for work visas to immigrants from Central Asia. Hope this helps Interesting, so in this video: https://youtu.be/MV4j_6ofqiA When Navalny compares minorities to cockroaches and then swats them, what is exactly the real life analogue to swatting and killing the cockroach? Is he meant to be giving work visas to the cockroaches so they can come live in Russia? I dunno, seems like a bit of a stretch
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Apr 4, 2021 18:23
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Daduzi posted:Here's an interesting and pretty comprehensive report on what's going on in Xinjiang just released: Reposting this since nobody seemed to read it the first time and it's pretty germane to the current "discussion". Possibly even moreso than various posters' post histories. Daduzi fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 18:26
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Mr. Nice! posted:I don't think your comparison is apt. A much better analogy would be our continued systemic racism against black people versus what happens at the border. Uyghurs are native Chinese people not refugees. My point was that there's a substantially large group of posters here who are all like "death to Amerikkka!!!", yet fall over each other when it comes to defending or minimizing anything and everything terrible that China does, including literal genocide. Really makes you think.
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Apr 4, 2021 18:27
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Chomskyan posted:Interesting, so in this video: https://youtu.be/MV4j_6ofqiA He doesn't compare minorities to cockroaches, he's using a very specific group of people in that picture, mainly Shamil Basaev, who before that in 2004 organized the Beslan terror attack, to invoke the gun right argument to protect against terrorists. This is a kinda bad pro-gun argument, not really proof he's pro-ethnic cleansing. Do you have anything to show? Since the guy is supposedly a loud raving racist you should have no problem bringing proof of that, right Do you believe women? You forgot to answer. EDIT: also can you clarify how that video is enough to prove that the guy is pro-ethnic cleansing but numerous first hand accounts of atrocities against Uighurs are not up to your standards of proof of ethnic cleansing Somaen fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 18:28
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not worth it
Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 18:31
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Daduzi posted:Here's an interesting and pretty comprehensive report on what's going on in Xinjiang just released: I've been skimming this report and it's quite horrifying. Here is an example paragraph that caught my eye. quote:Two leaked Government documents, known as the Aksu and Karakax Lists,113 provide the
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Apr 4, 2021 18:43
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couple of points, not aimed at any poster in particular: - Chinese abandonment of multiculturalism and embrace of assimilation is official policy - it's 民族交往交流交融, which is the exact slogan that pops up in party speeches (sometimes just 民族交融) - Domestic debate is aware of the tensions, even if they come down solidly in favour of assimilation, e.g., from a PKU prof quote:三十多年来社会主义市场经济的发展使我国经济领域各种生产要素加快跨地域流动，这种流动无论规模还是速度都是空前的。这一趋势使各民族交往交流交融更加容易，各民族关系更加密切。比如，各民族群众更多更广泛地混居，少数民族群众更加乐意学习国家通用语文。我们的政策取向应当是顺应这个趋势，深化这个趋势，使之不可逆转，使“三个离不开”不仅是一种愿望和倡导，更是一种现实的经济、政治、文化关系。从我国当前民族分布的现实出发，国家对少数民族地区的支持中，民族因素和地域因素的考虑仍将在相当长一个时期内并存，但随着民族混居程度的加深，随着少数民族群众生活和文化水平的提高，要有意识地向强调地域因素的方向引导。也就是说，经济支持要更多强调以自然环境艰苦、群众生活贫困等地域因素为标准，更多强调对贫困地区、对生活在那里的所有民族群众的支持，比如“西部大开发”、“兴边富民计划”，而不是过分强调对特定民族的支持。以地域因素为主要着眼点，国家大部分支持仍然会落实到少数民族群众，但是其社会政治导向作用却是不一样的。... (that whole essay is interesting, really) - despite the casual equivalence being drawn by the good professor here, the 中华民族 is 90% Han (and <1% Hui Muslim); this level of relative homogeneity is comparable to countries like Britain and Germany rather than the US perhaps. Of course China is a very big place. - a number of Xinjiang state govt initiatives make sense in the frame of a bureaucrat committee running down a list of Muslim cultural practices and producing answers one by one. e.g.: Uighurs extremely reluctant to marry outside the community: OK, give Han-Uighur marriages material incentives like a lump sum of cash, housing priority, govt job priority, etc. Uighurs extremely reluctant to interact socially with Han people: OK, have a programme assign a randomly-identified Han and Uighur family by some socioeconomic criteria to be acquaintances (the 民族团结一家亲 programme - that's the actually-existing Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, folks: where you can have your very own centrally-planned Minority Friend for the state media to parade). Where this kind of optimistic human-improvement-through-bureaucracy gets prickly is with religious considerations: halal food, Friday prayers, religious sensitivities to women marrying outside the faith. It's not that these are ideologically problematic in themselves - Hui people, who are also Muslim, don't get quite the same attention - but that the bureaucracy doesn't particularly care to be sensitive when sensitivity would slow down its ambitious mandate to compel assimilation. - it strikes me as obvious that if you put hundreds of thousands of people in camps, under the gentle hand of centrally-appointed regional governments that don't really have any reason to deeply care about their welfare, there's going to be a lot of abuse and that's not really shocking? It would be surprising if there wasn't abuse. Note that China does not deny that there are camps, but maintains that these are vocational and training camps to encourage these western Chinese minorities embracing a way of life familiar to the eastern Chinese coasts: stay in school ("real" school, not a madrassah), move to the cities, and find urban employment there. Anything at home is to be for the tourists. - Chinese pro-govt writers will readily point out that this is what Western Europe did to almost all its numerous insular regional communities, albeit during the long 19th century rather than in the span of two decades. Here, have Graham Robb describing language policy in the French Third Republic: quote:Many parents were reluctant to send their sons and daughters to school when they needed them for the harvest. Inspectors often found that girls were kept out of school to work as seamstresses in filthy sweatshops where they spent the day with relatives and neighbors, learning the local traditions and values that their mothers considered to be a proper education. Above all, many parents were afraid that once they learned to speak and write French like Parisians, their children would leave for the city and never come home. This brutal assimilation only abruptly halted once it had eliminated almost all of France's regional variation and only then was France very sorry about all that washing out mouths with soap. But by then those insufficiently assimilated were so few as to no longer seriously threaten its cohesion as a nation. ... on the flip side, of course, one would readily highlight again that China is already 90% Han etc. - on a regional note in general, the principal foreign power China is worried about in Xinjiang (also sometimes called East Turkestan) is almost certainly Pakistan, whose export of radical Islam has been a regional constant for a century at least. Its chief foreign policy concern is the 1b1r initiative insofar as its supports the domestic policy concern of the Western Development Strategy - China wants a prosperous western China, but with an unalloyed loyalty to China. So, the religious radicalism which China genially tolerated and even encouraged as late as the 1980s - remember, Soviets in Afghanistan right next door; China used to sponsor promising Uighur youth to finish their educations in Islamabad madrassahs - all abruptly have to go. It's enough to give any society metaphorical whiplash. ronya fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 19:22
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sexpig by night posted:So when the government didn't apply the one child law to ethnic minorities, including Uyghurs, was that them trying to destroy Han culture? I mean, until like a couple years ago even with one child increased to two Han in minority-majority provinces like Xinjiang were actually kept to the old rules, so that must have been Han genocide, right? Honestly in my opinion the one child policy was horrible and invasive and was already one of the classic examples of the Chininese government being incredibly oppressive of its citizenry, so it doesn't really increase my opinion of the government much for them to just not enforce it on some people. Possibly it could've even been pragmatically not stressing their authority in a more distant region that they might otherwise have a harder time controlling. That's a pretty common administrative tactic. While the Uighur genocide is probably the worst and most clearly bad thing the Chinese government is doing right now, and ends up dominating the thread as a result, it's definitely not the only thing.
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Apr 4, 2021 20:11
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SlothfulCobra posted:Honestly in my opinion the one child policy was horrible and invasive and was already one of the classic examples of the Chininese government being incredibly oppressive of its citizenry, so it doesn't really increase my opinion of the government much for them to just not enforce it on some people. I'm not as shocked anymore whenever "More than one thing can be bad" ends up relevant, but it's weird that I've seen crossover attempts at genocide denialism that basically boil down to "here's this one bad thing that china wasn't doing at this time to this group supposedly impacted by other bad thing"
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Apr 4, 2021 21:11
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Chomskyan posted:Interesting, so in this video: https://youtu.be/MV4j_6ofqiA To be clear, it wouldn't be giving further visa access, but ending the relative free movement of Central Asians to Russia due CIS/EAEU and instituting a more restrictive visa system.
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Apr 4, 2021 21:12
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Owlspiracy posted:not worth it I feel like this is really the conclusion most people on SA have come to, lol. You do not even say a word about Xinjiang unless you're ready to have a dozen really angry, really strongly opinionated people assume a whole lot and just blow the gently caress up on you. It's like, you could go to stormfront and argue against nazis or whatever, and you'd be right, but is it worth it? But since this seems to be the conversation we're having in every single China thread these days, what's the deal with the leaked Chinese documents that were released a while back about procedure in Xinjiang with the camps and all that? I mean, no one seems to reference them, but I read what was available a while ago and the big take away I got from them is; The camps exist They are not prisons according to the party, therefore the people in them are not criminals/haven't necessarily broken any laws Their detention is of an unspecified length, the conditions of their release are unclear They're, obviously, all Uighurs. And, yeah I'm not going to bend over backwards to defend that. If the Japanese internment camps in America in WWII were morally indefensible concentration camps (they were) then, well, this is too, right?
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Apr 5, 2021 02:30
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ronya posted:Note that China does not deny that there are camps, but maintains that these are vocational and training camps I think this was an interesting post but I thought that China very vocally did deny the existence of camps until it could do so no longer, then the narrative switched to yes, there are camps, but actually they are the good kind of camp (that you cannot leave of your own volition).
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Apr 5, 2021 06:02
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