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Jordan7hm posted:Shove that imposter syndrome feeling deep to the back and realize that we’re all faking it, even the people who know their poo poo. Remember - they want you. That’s the validation your imposter syndrome needs. Seconding this. If they thought you were underqualified, they wouldn't have come up 24k from their original offer.
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Apr 1, 2021 19:14
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stellers bae posted:Oh hey, so that digital agency that was offering me $130k, I countered at $160k, and then strung me along for two weeks and gave me a decline afterwards? Nice, seems like a decent bump to do new and innovative stuff and learn. They're offering you a job, they obviously think you're good enough. Just think of it as being paid ten bucks per hour you work to write down what you did. Sounds fairly decent that way.
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Apr 1, 2021 19:14
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Just because they literally wrote the book doesn't mean they are all experts. The book is probably written by the senior expert with help and proofreading from the team, and has the huge luxury of not taking time constraints into account (in the actual text being written). You being self taught actually could be a plus here, since you obviously know enough to get hired at a good rate and got there by thinking for yourself instead of just following a manual. I have seen way too many people who had been taught the manual and were good at following it, but then were hopelessly lost if they had to step outside it. Take the job, do some new fun stuff. You wouldn't have applied if you weren't ready to switch jobs.
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Apr 1, 2021 19:37
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m0therfux0r posted:Seconding this. If they thought you were underqualified, they wouldn't have come up 24k from their original offer. Definitely true, also true that they called him back because the other candidates on their list countered same as or higher than he did. Which is how you know you placed an appropriate valuation on yourself.
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Apr 1, 2021 20:08
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I read a blog post on one way to deal with impostor syndrome, and I thought it was pretty useful/cool: Pretend it’s brilliant conman syndrome, instead. “Day 31. No one has yet figured out that I’m making it all up as I go along,” may not help with the perception that you are making it up as you go, but it’ll be a salve to the ego.
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Apr 1, 2021 20:09
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Am I an rear end in a top hat for almost never feeling imposter syndrome? I feel like it's usually something like the opposite: I'm continually disappointed with how unimpressed I am with those senior to me. Not negotiating I know, but it's heavily on my mind right now after round N of upper mgmt shitshow
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Apr 1, 2021 20:12
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Xguard86 posted:Am I an rear end in a top hat for almost never feeling imposter syndrome? I feel like it's usually something like the opposite: I'm continually disappointed with how unimpressed I am with those senior to me. You are not. There is nothing wrong with being good at what you do and knowing it.
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Apr 1, 2021 20:13
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Xguard86 posted:Am I an rear end in a top hat for almost never feeling imposter syndrome? I feel like it's usually something like the opposite: I'm continually disappointed with how unimpressed I am with those senior to me. I feel the same. I've had plenty of colleagues and bosses with 20 years more experience than me who seemed like they were roughly as competent as me, if not less so. It's probably a combination of us but being idiots, us not knowing what we don't know and, at least in my case, white man syndrome, where I believe I'm hot loving poo poo because of privilege.
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Apr 1, 2021 20:17
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BonHair posted:I feel the same. I've had plenty of colleagues and bosses with 20 years more experience than me who seemed like they were roughly as competent as me, if not less so. It's probably a combination of us but being idiots, us not knowing what we don't know and, at least in my case, white man syndrome, where I believe I'm hot loving poo poo because of privilege. Well white dude too and there's a lot I'm not good at and would like to learn but it's hard to find people that are good sources. Sorry for the derail, I'm all triggered right now by dumb work stuff.
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Apr 1, 2021 20:22
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Xguard86 posted:Am I an rear end in a top hat for almost never feeling imposter syndrome? I feel like it's usually something like the opposite: I'm continually disappointed with how unimpressed I am with those senior to me. I go back and forth on it Some days I look around at all the smart people with similar or more senior titles than me, and think "wow all these people are so smart and capable I sure hope they never find me out" But then other days the realization is "wow all these other senior people are just figuring it out as they go like me" and that helps keep the imposter syndrome at bay, a little If you're getting the jobs, getting the titles, and getting good feedback you're not an imposter even if it feels like it
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Apr 1, 2021 20:42
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Thanks folks. Really appreciate the input, I have a fragile ego so this has felt nice.
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Apr 1, 2021 21:07
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stellers bae posted:Oh hey, so that digital agency that was offering me $130k, I countered at $160k, and then strung me along for two weeks and gave me a decline afterwards? If the VP of an industry leading company thinks you’re worth 154k a year to them you have to trust their judgment on it. They know what they’re doing and determined that out of all candidates you were the best fit. You got this.
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Apr 1, 2021 21:10
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You'd think Donald Trump blustering and bluffing his way all the way to the fuckin' Oval Office would be enough to put to rest any feelings anyone might ever have of Impostor Syndrome. Everyone's faking it Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 21:32
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LochNessMonster posted:If the VP of an industry leading company thinks you’re worth 154k a year to them you have to trust their judgment on it.  You got this, op. We’re all impostors.
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Apr 1, 2021 22:13
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Just turned down what would’ve been a competitive offer if I’d taken the 10% bonus at face value. Sorry, for the last five years I’ve watched my partners yearly bonus get tanked by some inexplicable accounting error or new policy. Funny how those wierd little spontaneous happenings never make their bonus larger, just smaller. It’s anecdotal, and I’m sure some have had good experiences with bonuses, but I don’t put much value on a “maybe” that can disappear overnight. This is also a company which halted any further interviews until I disclosed my desired salary range, but then dramatically changed course after I implemented my super secret power technique called “not responding”. Who’s hypothetical salary during the initial interview turned out to be the exact salary I was offered. I’m glad I stuck it out because it gave me some much needed practice negotiating on an offer. Speaking of which, if I’m sitting on an offer but still interviewing with others is that something I can use? Can I say “I just accepted an offer, but I’d love to learn more about this position,” or will I come off as the bloodless mercenary that I am?
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Apr 1, 2021 23:31
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GallienKruger posted:Just turned down what would’ve been a competitive offer if I’d taken the 10% bonus at face value. If you told me that you'd just accepted an offer, but you're willing to bail on that offer to take my offer, then you're also telling me that if I give you an offer, you'll bail on it for someone else's better offer. It's fine to say that you're evaluating other options and to ask for companies you are interviewing with to please make decisions by X time as you are evaluating options and would like to make a decision by X+1 time.
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Apr 2, 2021 00:32
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Yeah I wouldn’t straight up out yourself as a two timer. They don’t really need to know more than that you have a firm offer from somewhere else. But definitely use other offers for forcing their hand on timelines and figgies.
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Apr 2, 2021 00:57
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What I did when getting hired for the place I work now is make the two companies I was in process with each know that I am in process with another (although no other details), to make sure I'd get an offer within a window where I could look at both and decide. But I didn't accept an offer only to try and get a better deal from the other with it.
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Apr 2, 2021 01:01
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Using competing offers as leverage is totally normal, but if you've already accepted an offer the time has passed. Don't be that guy.
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Apr 2, 2021 01:04
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Thanks kindly, that tracks in my mind and sounds like solid advice. My field is pretty hot right now, plus I’ve picked up enough experience to be desirable. It’s pretty wild compared to my previous experiences, and I’m trying to do my best to take advantage while simultaneously not putting a target on myself in the fairly small market I’m in.
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Apr 2, 2021 02:35
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my anti-imposter syndrome mantra of "hell, lots of people i work with mess up all the time and nobody seems to care, im probably doing alright if they have never come down on me the whole time i've worked here" has been serving me well lately. don't be so hard on yourself!
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Apr 6, 2021 22:31
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ben shapino posted:my anti-imposter syndrome mantra of "hell, lots of people i work with mess up all the time and nobody seems to care, im probably doing alright if they have never come down on me the whole time i've worked here" has been serving me well lately. don't be so hard on yourself!  You should hear what they're saying about you behind your back.
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Apr 6, 2021 23:49
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Remember that while you are sitting around stroking your impostor syndrome, actual real morons who are better paid than you are confidently loving poo poo up out there.
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Apr 7, 2021 08:03
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I just found this thread and it's awesome. There's some excellent advice in here. I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'll add my own advice and anecdote on telling recruiters (especially contracting companies that utterly insist) your current salary: Lie. A lot. By five figure amounts if you think you can get away with it. There was a gig I had where it was perma-contracting and the corporation we did the actual work for decided to switch the agency that all us schlubs worked for. No new interviews and I knew that the corporation loved the work I did. When the new agency came around to asking, "hey, what's your salary", I lied and told them $24k/year more than I was currently making. I told them, "But it'd be nice to get a little bump, the previous contracting agency never even gave us reviews." They flat balked at that, but did pay me what I was "currently" making. The new contracting agency turned out to be the usual set of scumbags, and I never received a review or a pay increase for the remaining three years I was there, but I still think I won in the end.
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Apr 7, 2021 08:35
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stellers bae posted:Oh hey, so that digital agency that was offering me $130k, I countered at $160k, and then strung me along for two weeks and gave me a decline afterwards? Quackles posted:“Year 31. No one has yet figured out that I’m making it all up as I go along" That's literally every human ever. Edit: and maybe if more people talked about it openly impostor syndrome wouldn't be a thing 
itry fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Apr 7, 2021 |
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Apr 7, 2021 12:31
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evobatman posted:Remember that while you are sitting around stroking your impostor syndrome, actual real morons who are better paid than you are confidently loving poo poo up out there. Amen. Never underestimate the Dunning–Kruger effect.
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Apr 7, 2021 13:20
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DrunkMidget posted:I just found this thread and it's awesome. There's some excellent advice in here. I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'll add my own advice and anecdote on telling recruiters (especially contracting companies that utterly insist) your current salary: Lie. A lot. By five figure amounts if you think you can get away with it. so let me just get this straight: you're telling me you lied about salary in an environment where there was a good chance that the lie would be found out, and it didn't work and you didn't get paid more, and somehow this was some kind of win? 
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Apr 7, 2021 13:42
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:so let me just get this straight: you're telling me you lied about salary in an environment where there was a good chance that the lie would be found out, and it didn't work and you didn't get paid more, and somehow this was some kind of win? From the way it's worded i believe they got the 24K more than the previous contract due to the quotes around currently
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Apr 7, 2021 13:47
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DrunkMidget posted:I just found this thread and it's awesome. There's some excellent advice in here. I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'll add my own advice and anecdote on telling recruiters (especially contracting companies that utterly insist) your current salary: Lie. A lot. By five figure amounts if you think you can get away with it.
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Apr 7, 2021 14:08
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DoubleT2172 posted:From the way it's worded i believe they got the 24K more than the previous contract due to the quotes around currently oh i see yeah my mistake - i still think it's generally bad advice when you should just deflect the conversation as much as possible
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Apr 7, 2021 14:31
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evobatman posted:Remember that while you are sitting around stroking your impostor syndrome, actual real morons who are better paid than you are confidently loving poo poo up out there. This is some powerful wisdom here. For thread content: I've utterly and completely failed the introductory salary question the last two times. Granted, I haven't given away my CURRENT salary, but I've always ended up giving a number first. The first time, I said "I've been given the green light to start looking for new roles internally, and because we're MegaCorp, Inc. the system is incredibly structured; how about I tell you what I expect to make in my next desk, since that will be a more useful figure to work from?". I figure this wasn't the WORST strategy in the world since by giving that number, I was essentially anchoring upwards, telling them they'd need to beat what my next job was going to be by enough to get me to move halfway across the country. It would have been better if I had just straight-up asked for the range, though. I honestly can't remember if I tried that approach or not; both times they "just wanted to make sure I was in the range" and I'm not sure if I even thought to just straight-up ask. In the past, I've had people tell me ranges before when I tried to dance around the question, so . . . hmm. I will say that working for a company that tells you where you are in your current salary band is huge. I just changed companies, and not knowing what the bands are or where I am in mine is somewhat off-balancing, to say the least. I figure I'll wait awhile before I start asking how to find that information out over an after-work beer or whatever, though.
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Apr 7, 2021 14:31
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Lying about what you're currently making is not a great move. For every time it works as you intend, you are running the risk that your offer is pulled entirely because the information is disconfirmed. There are a bounty of ways that a prospective employer can find out what you presently make without your consent. But more importantly: it's not necessary. You can always say "I'm not telling." Lying about what you make is only getting you the ability to get a job offer from a company who would not give you an offer if you refused to tell them what you're presently making, and avoiding the confrontation of refusing to play a prospective employer's "bend over for me" game. Getting that offer from that company is negative value for you, because everyone else you work with there is either a liar or an idiot. Avoiding confrontation is not helping you become a better negotiator. I encourage you not to lie about what you're making.
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Apr 7, 2021 15:29
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Zarin posted:This is some powerful wisdom here. I'm going in the opposite direction, interviewing with the first company to ever provide salary band/range details for the position from the start. And not even bother asking my current salary. It's great but unfamiliar. I feel like they anchored me now 
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Apr 7, 2021 15:31
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Dik Hz posted:One major problem with lying is that it is both unnecessary and can tank offers from reputable companies and good managers. It's only beneficial with lovely managers. If you're in "any port in a storm" mode, it can be beneficial. But it's not a strategy that lands a good job. Yeah it's extremely this. Refusing to tell them your current salary is in your financial best interests, but that's not the only benefit. It also provokes lovely companies to exclude themselves from your job search with a minimum of hassle.
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Apr 7, 2021 15:34
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Avoiding confrontation is not helping you become a better negotiator. This line seems huge to me. I think on some level a lot of us (myself included here) would feel like we "failed" if we start an interview process and walk away without an offer. I'm not sure why this is, and the psychology behind that is probably out of scope for the thread, but it's probably important for everyone to start the process recognizing that it's okay to walk away and say "thanks, but no thanks" with the understanding that (hopefully) you learned something. I'm pretty good with that mindset in other aspects of my life, but haven't really been so good with it in job searching. (Then again, I probably spent too long at my last company so I haven't searched as often as I should) downout posted:I'm going in the opposite direction, interviewing with the first company to ever provide salary band/range details for the position from the start. And not even bother asking my current salary. It's great but unfamiliar. I feel like they anchored me now Oh, the job didn't post the range on the application; just that once I was in it, I could see my own band and where I fell in it (the very bottom, natch)
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Apr 7, 2021 15:38
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DrunkMidget posted:I just found this thread and it's awesome. There's some excellent advice in here. I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'll add my own advice and anecdote on telling recruiters (especially contracting companies that utterly insist) your current salary: Lie. A lot. By five figure amounts if you think you can get away with it. I know everyone is already saying "yeah don't do this", but I do indeed want to confirm- the last contract job I had that went through a recruiter required my most recent W2 and pay stub after I accepted the offer as part of the contingent background check. This is very common and is where your offer would probably get pulled- companies due this for full-time employees frequently as well. You got extremely lucky.
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Apr 7, 2021 15:47
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m0therfux0r posted:I know everyone is already saying "yeah don't do this", but I do indeed want to confirm- the last contract job I had that went through a recruiter required my most recent W2 and pay stub after I accepted the offer as part of the contingent background check. This is very common and is where your offer would probably get pulled- companies due this for full-time employees frequently as well. You got extremely lucky. Mine required this, but they said it was just for verification purposes that I was employed where I said I was. I blanked out all the salary information before sending, and they didn't have a problem with it. Edit: I would not have had to provide this information if I had allowed them to contact my previous employer, but I didn't want them to do that before I had gotten the firm offer.
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Apr 7, 2021 16:06
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I agree with the don't lie but also from the OP I am getting it is one of the many poo poo bag professional staffing agencies. We use them for Staff Aug positions. Once you start we never agree to a raise for you, you don't get holidays. usually no PTO, you get the agencies bad, expensive health care instead of our cheap and good health care. You have to be just as good and effective as my staff for way less pay and benefits. If you can not work for these then it is the best thing for you. Zarin posted:For thread content: I've utterly and completely failed the introductory salary question the last two times. Granted, I haven't given away my CURRENT salary, but I've always ended up giving a number first. The first time, I said "I've been given the green light to start looking for new roles internally, and because we're MegaCorp, Inc. the system is incredibly structured; how about I tell you what I expect to make in my next desk, since that will be a more useful figure to work from?". I figure this wasn't the WORST strategy in the world since by giving that number, I was essentially anchoring upwards, telling them they'd need to beat what my next job was going to be by enough to get me to move halfway across the country. If you are applying internally they know what you make. So kind of don't think you messed up.
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Apr 7, 2021 16:29
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spwrozek posted:If you are applying internally they know what you make. So kind of don't think you messed up. Ah, no; I was using what I knew my next promotion would be internally, to leverage a higher salary at an external company. Essentially I was setting myself up to skip a pay grade (compared to if I had stayed internal). In reality, I could perhaps have gotten more if I hadn't set that expectation there, I suppose. But from what I knew of the job from an internal contact, I had a pretty good idea of what it was going to pay before I even applied, and that strategy set me up to get where I expected it would be. Then COVID hit and they cancelled the interview, RIP
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Apr 7, 2021 16:34
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Ah ok. I see. I misread that. Never say a number.
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Apr 7, 2021 16:36
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