|
Splicer posted:D&D 5e the game recently gained an optional rule to remove species fixed ability score assignments, thereby technically making it the least mechanically racist version of the D&D system. I'm not sure how saying that dwarves are generally stronger than elves when they are literally different species was racist, but  I'll make a dexdwarf
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 04:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 18:58 |
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/964-an-ode-to-heat-metal-the-greatest-d-d-spell-of-all One of my players used Heat Metal to kill an arrogant baron by melting all of the gold chains he had around his neck. Gave him the old Crassus treatment
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 04:13
|
|
|
Luceo posted:I'm not sure how saying that dwarves are generally stronger than elves when they are literally different species was racist, but Also that they literally made the black elves generally evil. The poster is correct though in that it's much less racist than 2nd & 3rd ed straight up giving negative modifiers to certain races. There's also the monoculture problem of assuming that every elf is proficient with certain weapons and speaks elvish, or that every dwarf has stonecunning and tool prodiciencies. There was an interesting system proposed which was a separation of race traits (innate bonuses and abilities like darkvision) and upbringing (languages, proficiencies and background), so you could choose to be a tiefling raised by elves etc. But that wouldn't really have solved the issue above, so they published it in Tashas as "change anything you want, be a 4ft halfling who's stronger than an 7ft orc, just please stop shouting at us on twitter" and ended up getting way more people shouting at them on twitter. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 04:32
|
|
|
I love Heat Metal and it is indeed powerful, but of course at the expense of the theoretical 9th level slot, then at 17th level you better have a way to negate disadvantage and concentration check the caster, preferably multiple times. Also to keep it going for 5-10 minutes it takes to doff armor would mean spending 5-10 spell slots, so there really is no point in attempting to doff. I mean, the target is likely a pile of ashes before even 1 minute is up, 90d8 and all, but anything but removing the armor is probably a better plan. Great spell and hard to counter but there are still a few asterisk to its use.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 04:36
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:There was an interesting system proposed which was a separation of race traits (innate bonuses and abilities like darkvision) and upbringing (languages, proficiencies and background), so you could choose to be a tiefling raised by elves etc. The problem with this is if it kept stat caps it would just change the structure from "Your species is stupid" to "Your culture is stupid." A weird example of old D&D racism was in an art guide for 3.x where they said to draw humans of every racial variety, but dwarves have one: Dwarf. Obviously based on Tordek we know what that racial variety actually was, but it was interesting sign of only halting growth at the time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 05:25
|
|
|
theironjef posted:The problem with this is if it kept stat caps it would just change the structure from "Your species is stupid" to "Your culture is stupid." There are multiple kinds of dwarf, but those ones are "subraces"
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 05:42
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:Satan Has His Miracles I'd buy this setting in a heartbeat if it were on Itch. Luceo posted:I'm not sure how saying that dwarves are generally stronger than elves when they are literally different species was racist, but Bioessentialism and monoculturism are both bad and racist. The former is built on the concept of "Race Science", which was ridiculously racist and was used to justify everything from slavery to genocide. Thomas Jefferson used it/invented it to reconcile his love of owning people with his faith. "But it's a different species!" just reeks of weak apologetics, especially considering that these different species are often based on extant marginalized cultures. Devorum fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 05:49
|
|
|
Ran an OSR one shot adventure using 5e, The Waking of Willowby Hall (link), and boy howdy it went well. The published hardcover adventures are real turds in that not only is most of the content just okay at best, but it's actively unwieldy and hard to run by the book.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 06:03
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:There's also the monoculture problem of assuming that every elf is proficient with certain weapons and speaks elvish, or that every dwarf has stonecunning and tool prodiciencies. I feel like, in addition to this, there are sun, moon, star, wood, light, dark, stone, desert, winged, sky, seasonal, etc. elves, and then there's like, 'orcs'. If the amount of effort that went into making new elves went into writing a diverse and well-realized orc society, it'd be a lot less egregious.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 07:50
|
|
|
Hey now, there's also small orcs (goblins), normie orcs (half-orcs), dog orcs (kobolds), pasta orcs (italians)
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 08:27
|
|
|
GreenMetalSun posted:I feel like, in addition to this, there are sun, moon, star, wood, light, dark, stone, desert, winged, sky, seasonal, etc. elves, and then there's like, 'orcs'. The important think to remember about the word 'racist' is that it doesn't just apply to a nazi screaming in the face of a black person, it also applies to a lesser extent to amateur race scientists and oxbridge entry selection committees who can look at a less than 10% diverse cohort and think 'this is fine.'
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 13:22
|
|
|
Warhammer 40k has the best Orks
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 13:48
|
|
|
Devorum posted:"But it's a different species!" just reeks of weak apologetics, especially considering that these different species are often based on extant marginalized cultures. I dunno, I can kind of see where that comes from just because when you have tieflings who have literal magic powers due to their origins and various people who have different eyes giving them dark vision and such, so it's not a terrible stretch to think one might be stronger or more magical than the other, but it still definitely reeks of some real poisonous poo poo and I wouldn't be sad to see it go. I just don't think people are speaking in bad faith when their kind of role-playing fantasy involves nonhumans having inherent abilities that set them apart from humans.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:01
|
|
|
Devorum posted:"But it's a different species!" just reeks of weak apologetics, especially considering that these different species are often based on extant marginalized cultures. Also considering most humanoid races in D&D can interbreed they actually are not a different species Edit: thinking about this a little more, that means that the people in every official D&D setting have some weird hang ups about eugenics and race mixing. "half races" in D&D are usually characterized as outsiders and rare. Despite that fact that these different races could co-mingle and create large populations of half-orc or half-elves they never do. They always stick to their own kind in official lore Rutibex fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:24
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:Blizzard are less guilty of this since WoW recontextualises the orcs and 'monster' races as just trying to get by, and has removed (all? most?) of the restrictions on which races can do the 'intellect' roles. It's a little different in WoW, because 'Intellect' actually doesn't mean anything other than that you're a mana-using class, and also, they standardized the base attributes across race. Intellect doesn't reflect how intelligent you are, and instead is just the 'magic powers scaling attribute'. Depending on your class it reflects wizard training/strength of will/devotion to the Light/kung fu/the strength of your demonic pacts/attunement to the planet/etc. I'm lightly on the side of, 'An earth elemental being stronger than a halfling on average is not nazi eugenics, actually', but holy poo poo, 'some races are just naturally more intelligent/others have intelligence penalties' just doesn't look good no matter how you try to spin it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 15:12
|
|
|
GreenMetalSun posted:I'm lightly on the side of, 'An earth elemental being stronger than a halfling on average is not nazi eugenics, actually', but holy poo poo, 'some races are just naturally more intelligent/others have intelligence penalties' just doesn't look good no matter how you try to spin it. Yeah, I'm pretty much with you here. My thing, though, is the PCs aren't average people, and Swolebo shouldn't be mechanically penalized because he's a halfling. But also, the biological determinism stuff is just one piece of D&D's racist baggage. The game is also suffused with Orientalist tropes, and its classic gameplay mode--go to the "savage" frontier, kill the locals, take their treasures, eventually establish your stronghold--is straight up Colonialism. That said, I don't think playing Keep on the Borderlands or including the Red Wizards of Thay or even Drow as villains in a campaign is itself a racist act. I don't think those things perpetuate a system of injustice. But one shouldn't ignore the game's racist baggage.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 15:39
|
|
|
I like to turn the tropes of D&D on its head. I once ran a campaign where a vanguard party of anarchist wizards were trying to overthrow feudalism by teaching all of the peasants magic
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 15:43
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:That said, I don't think playing Keep on the Borderlands or including the Red Wizards of Thay or even Drow as villains in a campaign is itself a racist act. I don't think those things perpetuate a system of injustice. But one shouldn't ignore the game's racist baggage. Since 3rd ed you've had more of the idea that most of them are slaves to a matriarchal elite of Lolth worshippers, and it's the elites who run the society that are bad. Even that is being broken down a bit more, though I'm not too familiar with 5e drow lore. GreenMetalSun posted:It's a little different in WoW, because 'Intellect' actually doesn't mean anything other than that you're a mana-using class, and also, they standardized the base attributes across race. Intellect doesn't reflect how intelligent you are, and instead is just the 'magic powers scaling attribute'. Depending on your class it reflects wizard training/strength of will/devotion to the Light/kung fu/the strength of your demonic pacts/attunement to the planet/etc. Also where the trolls are portrayed as intelligent it's generally cunning and trickery If you go back to the RTS days the orcs generally are portrayed as dumb but strong. I get your point about how INT works as a mechanic, but they did choose to call that stat intelligence, rather than arcane or mental or whatever, and then deny the classes that use it to the orcs. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:06
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:I guess that's why I tend to argue that the game isn't perfect, it's just better than it used to be. Drow used to be evil just because they were Drow - I'm pretty sure that in older editions you couldn't be good aligned as a drow without the DM house ruling it. In older editions Drow were not playable at all
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:In older editions Drow were not playable at all First playable Drow were in Unearthed Arcana in 1985.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:14
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:In classic / vanilla there were limits on which races could take certain classes, and coincidentally orcs and trolls weren't allowed mage, only shaman. It's especially weird where the trolls have jamaican accents and come from the islands off the coast of the orc lands. Orcs had three INT-using classes in Vanilla, Hunter, Shaman, and Warlock. Trolls had Priests, Mages, Hunters, and Shamans. It's true that orcs couldn't be mages, not because they were too dumb, but because they had collectively rejected arcane magic as a culture. On their homeworld, they were (at one point) enslaved by an Empire (Highmaul) whose rulership caste were mages. So they associated arcane magic with imperialist colonizers, and the 'magic-using' component of their society were shamans. ...so on one hand, it comes down to, 'Well, we wrote a whole history about why they can't be mages!', but also it does a bit better than, 'Welp, they're stupid.' As a note, in Vanilla, the only playable elves also could not be mages, for almost literally the exact same reason. The 'magic-using' component of their society was druids. For a while, WoW was trying to be like, 'arcane magic is inherently corrupting', but backed off that plot point in recent content. Also true that they could have called your stats something like, 'Class Prowess' and 'Toughness' and been done with it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:22
|
|
|
theironjef posted:First playable Drow were in Unearthed Arcana in 1985. Oh its been a long times since I cracked the book open, I must have forgotten! I looked it up and it turns out that Drow have never been mandatory evil. Though there are level caps based on gender  
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:32
|
|
|
That's interesting about the elves / orcs and magic. Warcraft has (at least since WOW) had a more nuanced take on orcs than most D&D / fantasy settings. I guess a big part of it is the game's general approach to enemies, especially with orcs and the general approach of 'they're savages so it's ok to clear them out if they're causing problems for nearby human villages.' Because of the huge chunk of the rules being based around combat there needs to be enemies that can be killed without the player facing a huge moral crisis every time. But the problem with this is well represented by what happened to PoCGamer and his attempt to contextualise the two races as more than savages, with complex interplay of cultures and beliefs and needs. And the mostly white publishers and editors of Candlekeep ripped it all out without consulting him, reducing it back to 'the savages are fighting again, pick one to do a genocide on.' It's like they're saying 'It's ok to kill them because they're savages,' but when you try to set them up as more than savages the pushback is 'but then who can be the baddies we get to kill?' And yes, 40k has the best Orks because they are space cockneys. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:Also considering most humanoid races in D&D can interbreed they actually are not a different species Everyone's a half human but there aren't ever, like half dwarves/half halfling people or whatever. Presumably humans have the magical power to gently caress and reproduce with *everything*, which clearly establishes 5e as a fantasy game. That said I think it's legitimate to have a lot of racism in the game *settings*, as distinct from the *rules*. After all the settings we play in reflect our world and racism exists in reality so why wouldn't it exist elsewhere?. Saying that in the Forgotten Realms miscegenation is viewed with bias and suspicion is one thing; a rule saying "half orcs have a penalty to intelligence" is quite another. edit: I recently started toying with the idea of adapting "Ruins of Adventure," the old Pool of Radiance module, for 5th edition, and ran into this issue in a big way. The whole conceit is that the "civilized races" are "retaking" the ruined city from the "monstrous hordes" of kobolds, orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, etc. Who the hell is the city council to decide which races count as "fantasy white" ? They aren't even elected office holders! They're just descendants of the prior council! On the one hand, there's just a racist viewpoint inherent in the framing of the original module. On the other, that racist framing is "realistic" given how power and privilege work in the real world; viewed that way, the module has potential as a critique of privileged monopolies of force . The new colonialists have hired you to evict a whole city. . . Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:46
|
|
|
I've been reading through Tomb of Annihilation, and while I love the general idea of the campaign/sandbox, I can't get past the regressive nature of the setting. Is there any way to run ToA without including those problematic elements?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:54
|
|
|
Just make everyone in chult helpless whiteys
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:57
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:The whole conceit is that the "civilized races" are "retaking" the ruined city from the "monstrous hordes" of kobolds, orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, etc. Who the hell is the city council to decide which races count as "fantasy white" ? They aren't even elected office holders! They're just descendants of the prior council!  Hieronymous Alloy posted:Everyone's a half human but there aren't ever, like half dwarves/half halfling people or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:59
|
|
|
I thought halflings were supposed to be some kind of melange of the shorty races At the very least you have stout halflings, which have Dwarven blood
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:00
|
|
|
Ignite Memories posted:Just make everyone in chult helpless whiteys Honestly my first thought (and this is probably the most inelegant, brute force way to deal with it) is to just remove wholesale the entire idea of a native Chultan civilization from the continent. The continent does not have a native humanoid population - everyone there originally came from somewhere else in the Realms. Any ancient ruins are reminders of a long departed civilization or were built by other visitors in days long past. I don't know, something along those lines, but even there I feel like something is wrong.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:01
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:Perhaps they could simply start building potion shops and luxury hovels until the orcs and goblinoids choose to move to a cheaper area The module literally has a potion vendor and a couple other shops placed in the starting 1st level combat "slums" zone
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:03
|
|
|
There also.used to be tallfellow halflings, which were elf-halfling hybrids
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:04
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:Perhaps they could simply start building potion shops and luxury hovels until the orcs and goblinoids choose to move to a cheaper area "We call it 'Adventurification'!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:06
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:The module literally has a potion vendor and a couple other shops placed in the starting 1st level combat "slums" zone
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:12
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Everyone's a half human but there aren't ever, like half dwarves/half halfling people or whatever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io4v_-agq-Y  https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mongrelfolk quote:Mongrelmen were known to contain pieces from many others species, including dwarves, elves, and humans, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears, as well as orcs and ogres. Even stranger possibilities included creatures like bullywugs, crabmen, lizardfolk, gnolls, minotaurs, and even satyrs. However, mongrelfolk could appear to be mildly unusual members of other races by hiding their more outlandish features
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:15
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io4v_-agq-Y 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:17
|
|
|
It's supposed to be just "wizard did it" stuff, but they're from the AD&D days and that means Gygax was aware of them and under no circumstances is that guy to receive the benefit of the doubt.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
Mr. Lobe posted:I thought halflings were supposed to be some kind of melange of the shorty races
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:01
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io4v_-agq-Y oh god dammit welp, that's going onto the pile. "They call us Mongrelfolk, but we are just a commune of people who love each other!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:16
|
|
|
Hello there! For a level three party, have you typically gone for merely giving them the starting equipment (mostly the gold value I am thinking of) or have you generally been more generous toward them? I admit the starting equipment feels a little on the low side going by my gut feeling, but I am not sure what would be a balanced/solid amount above it to give.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 18:58 |
|
|
Start em out broke. Like, one dark sun campaign I ran in high school, I started everyone enslaved. First mission was breaking free. They got what they found.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:54
|
|