|
Keegers posted:How do you all wave when you need to pull in the clutch? UK is the nod for most part. Though I'm partial to the standing salute when possible. I often use the foot when filtering traffic to thank cars for pulling in a tad.
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 20:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:30 |
|
|
metavisual posted:I'm in Burlington, so I'm just a few minutes north of Boston. Ah cool, I'm down the Bridgewater area.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
Keegers posted:How do you all wave when you need to pull in the clutch? Don't pull in the clutch and let the engine just die. You're coming to a stop anyways right?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 00:29
|
|
|
Salisbury Snape posted:Though I'm partial to the standing salute when possible. I’ve never seen this before but the mental image is hilarious.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 00:39
|
|
|
moxieman posted:I’ve never seen this before but the mental image is hilarious. Gets bloody cold riding around with no pants though!
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 01:26
|
|
|
Keegers posted:How do you all wave when you need to pull in the clutch? As others have said just nod and the other biker will understand because, they too, have been in the same situation and they do the same thing. Alternatively just dump the clutch to wave and see what happens. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 01:44
|
|
|
moxieman posted:I’ve never seen this before but the mental image is hilarious. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 01:47
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 02:55
|
|
|
 Saw this today in a youtube video. https://damon.com/reserve-hs
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 04:47
|
|
|
Love to watch bikes and video games converge as engineers are replaced with techbros full of amazing disruptive ideas. Was also gonna say something about vaporware as well, but that's been a thing in the bike world since forever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 04:54
|
|
|
I mean, more power to them if they can deliver on those promises. I’ll believe they’re real when we see the early adopter reviews.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 06:49
|
|
|
Unfortunately the EV space is hot right now so it attracts an insane amount of frauds (plus people actually doing cool poo poo).
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 07:07
|
|
|
Hi there. I'm the EV guy. Ask me to go on my tirade on the loving COCK BULLSHIT gently caress YOU JAY YOU FAT WHORE rant about how much of a scam Damon is.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 07:09
|
|
|
Ziploc posted:
Oh boy is it time for the Morpho to get reinvented again?  LodeRunner posted:Hi there. I'm the EV guy. Ask me to go on my tirade on the loving COCK BULLSHIT gently caress YOU JAY YOU FAT WHORE rant about how much of a scam Damon is. Please, 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 07:34
|
|
|
LodeRunner posted:Hi there. I'm the EV guy. Ask me to go on my tirade on the loving COCK BULLSHIT gently caress YOU JAY YOU FAT WHORE rant about how much of a scam Damon is. Renaissance Robot posted:Please,
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 08:15
|
|
|
I'm gonna try to figure out how to condense this to digestible chunks and keep people's eyes from glossing over. God, where to start. Alright. There are 3 basic parts to any electric vehicle: Battery, Inverter (sometimes called controller), and Motor. The battery is the gas tank obviously. However the cells used in the battery greatly impact the performance, the parallel being a fuel type. Batteries are made up of dozens/hundreds/thousands of smaller cells tied together. Cheaper cells hold less power and don't charge or discharge very quickly. This is where all the money is being thrown and tech improvement being stressed. Cars use lower density cells that also have lower charge and discharge rates because they may have upwards of 7000 individual cells so it doesn't matter as much. With motorcycles, space is a premium so it's expected they must use the absolute highest density cells that also have the highest charge and discharge rates. The inverter/controller is the brain and power between the battery and motor. It takes DC power out of the battery and generally converts it into AC power for the motor. When you slow down and engage regen, they take AC power from the motor and convert it to DC to recharge the battery. They're not super complex. There are breakthroughs in inverter tech but generally it's, "make it slightly smaller and maybe add liquid cooling idk" The motor is the fun spinning magnets. More magnets, more power. Magnets and copper get hot. Cool down via oil bath or passive air cooling. This is basically the only moving part on an electric motorcycle. It's surprisingly durable. Potential failure points include things the controller losing track of what position the magnets are in. That can be fixed by a simple diagnostic session involving a single full rotation of the rear wheel. Motor can go forwards or backwards. It doesn't care. A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME: A while back a wealthy prick entrepreneur named JoeBen Bivert set out to make various electric vehicle ventures. One is a high tech company making electric helicopters: Joby Aviation. He was well funded and attracted really bright minds. According to everyone that has ever worked there he's an insufferable oval office and, after a brief stint, a group of the best and brightest splintered off to form an electric motorcycle company called Mission Motors. They poured the best tech they could fling at a bike at the time (early 2010s) to offer a $68,000 electric sport bike, the Mission RS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFDcyYpRzdk The Mission RS featured 0-60 in 3 seconds, 163 hp, 133 lb/ft torque, a top speed of 150mph, and a range of maybe 150 mph (probably slower city driving). For reference, only now in 2021 are electric bikes being delivered that can beat those specs, and they're not beaten by a ton. Sadly Mission was plagued with various problems. THE MEDIA reports that Mission's top engineers were poached by Apple, but my sources tell me Mission got into bed with Harley-Davidson to develop the powertrain for the LiveWire. They did this and then expected an influx of cash from H-D as promised, but Harley reneged while Mission had already spent their assumed windfall on hookers and blow. A small number of Mission bikes were ever made and exist to this day. The company disappeared. I saw a Mission RS in 2018. It was glorious. Had the rider been any good he'd have won the competition that year. Anyway, Mission went under in 2015 having failed to achieve their goals. 4 years pass. A company called Damon wants to show off their technology they're announcing that will be really cool for motorcycles. It will be this cool anti-collision camera system with sensors and sensors and cameras and sensors and cameras and sensors and also this thing that alters the ergonomics of a motorcycle and cameras with sensors and you know it's super cool and they'll develop this tech for people. Someone offers them a big bag of money and says, "do it" so they, having nothing, announce the premier electric motorcycle to end all electric motorcycles. 200/200/200 is the big claim. 200 horsepower, 200 miles per hour, and 200 miles of range. They figure that resonates in the marketing world. And they're right. God, whoever they hired for marketing is doing top level work. Who else could create this??  Massive claim after massive claim appear. The CEO, Jay Giraud, talks up a storm about how realistic and how amazing this Damon HyperSport $38,000 bike will be. I, a bitter jaded gently caress, am not holding my breath. I start digging. That's all for tonight. Gotta assemble my thoughts for part 2 tomorrow.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 08:22
|
|
|
They should have saved a little on their marketing budget to hire someone who can get the perspective correct in blender for their fake bike ads
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 13:37
|
|
|
LodeRunner posted:I'm gonna try to figure out how to condense this to digestible chunks and keep people's eyes from glossing over. God, where to start. So you're telling us there's a chance?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
Man I just went to damon.com to look at their pretentious site and was reminded how much they irritate me. They showcase their powertrain which is a very distinct look and all the renderings of the bikes have it. The ONE image they have of a rider on a bike literally doesn't feature that powertrain. Most industry people I talk to agree it's a Zero Motorcycles battery in a Yamaha R1 rolling chassis and Damon continues to have dick-all for actual bikes. Quick dive into batteries and cells. As I mentioned electric cars can get away with using less power-dense cells with lower charge and discharge stats. In the nerdy EV world this is known as a C-rating. C rating describes how much power is used to fully charge or discharge a pack in a set amount of time. 1C is the amount of power to fully charge or discharge a pack in 1 hour. 2C is 30 minutes. 3C is 20 minutes. 4C is 15 minutes. It's actually 60 minutes divided by the number in question, so 60/4 = 15; that describes 4C. Charging is more stressful than discharging on a battery. That's why you're allowed to hammer the battery going very fast accelerating, but charging generally takes an hour. Most manufacturers traditionally have been keeping their vehicles limited to a 1C charge. Recently they've been addressing thermal issues and figuring out how to do a 2 or even 3C charge, but it's easier said than done. I am greatly simplifying things but GENERALLY there are 2 types of lithium batteries: cylinders and pouch cells. Cylinders look like your traditional battery from Duracell. The two most popular variants are 18650 and 21700. The numbers describe the diameter and length in mm, with a random 0 thrown on the end. 18mm diameter, 65mm length vs 21mm diameter and 70mm length. These are what are in your modern e-bicycles, power tools, drones, Chinese electric motorcycles, electric scooters, and some cars. They have an ok power density, and acceptable charge and discharge rate. The really good ones, made by Samsung at the moment (Samsung 50G), have a decent capacity and can discharge at 3C. Pouch cells look like a bigger version of your cell phone. As they are rectangles they stack very, very well. They also have massive capacities and ridiculous discharge rates. The pouch cells that Zero motorcycles uses from manufacturer Farasis are rated for a 10C discharge. The cells are totally fine if you drained them from full to empty in 6 minutes. It would take about 6 of the absolute best 21700 cells to match the capacity of one of the Farasis pouch cells. As space is a premium, all high end motorcycles use pouch cells. Obviously you can stack them together tighter and they have a high charge and discharge rate. Harley-Davidson actually uses a sort of hybrid called a Prismatic Can also used in the automotive world but that's too much sidetracking. The point is if you want energy density and good power delivery in a limited space you use pouch cells. Only the cheap Alibaba/AliExpress motorcycles use cylinders because they're bulkier, less power-dense, and will weigh more. THIS IS HOW IT IS. Damon is proudly using 21700s in their battery pack. "You see," they go onto say in their press releases, "it's much easier to stack cylinders than squares." Ah, yes, of course. How stupid of me.  They are claiming to be able to fit a 20kWh (KiloWatt Hour) battery made up of 21700 cells in their bike and have it both be a smaller form factor and weigh 150lbs less than the Energica Ego+ which has an 18.9kWh pack made up of pouch cells. Every battery engineer I show this to generally responds with, "oh gently caress off, who the gently caress are they kidding?" I've done some napkin math based off Damon's claims and figure you need about 1,200 of the absolute best 21700 cells on the market to make this pack up. The absolute BEST stack efficiency for a cylindrical cell with the appropriate connectors, housings, etc. is 65%. This is before anything like liquid cooling which, guess what, Damon claims this pack will have. That's right! Industry first! Using the bulkiest, least power-dense cells, they're going to add liquid cooling and have it be lighter and smaller than everyone else! It's great! Or, as a friend of mine who used to design inverters described it, "Where the gently caress are you planning on putting the 120 litres of cells you'll need to make 20kWh?" This is where I get further annoyed by Jay, the CEO. He makes... stupid claims in press releases. I don't know where the most recent ones are but he boasts about "industry leading" specs that, frankly, aren't industry leading. One he's very proud of is how his batteries are a  industry-leading 200Wh/kg, meaning a certain power density for weight of batteries. He bragged to me over a Facebook argument that even Tesla doesn't have that. I know for a fact that Tesla's model 3 cells are 250Wh/kg. Not only that, Zero's 2018 pack uses pouch cells that are around 265Wh/kg. If the Damon bikes are slated to come out in 2022 then they're losing to the stats of something 4 years old at that point.Additionally, he talks about the amazing power delivery. THESE batteries are capable of a 3C discharge, people! Remember first that Zero's cells are rated for a 10C discharge. Second, and again this is a little bit of technical jargon, this clashes with what Damon claims their own specs are. If you had a 20kWh battery pack that was capable of only a 1C discharge, then you would be able to output a peak of 20kW (not kWh) of power. That is equivalent to 26hp. If your batteries can discharge at 2C, that's 40kW output or 52hp. 3C is 60kW output or 80hp. CEO Jay is claiming their 20kWh batteries are capable of an amazing 3C discharge rate (60kW), and in the same breath saying their bike is capable of 150kW or 200hp power output. Either he's too stupid to realize what he's saying or he's lying somewhere. I honestly don't know which. Now, why did I mention all that Mission Motorsports stuff in the previous post? Well, in April of 2020 Damon announced they acquired all of Mission's IP and would be incorporating that into their designs. Shortly after that they started unveiling renderings of their Hyperdrive system which included a motor that looks and behaves SUSPICIOUSLY similar to the motor in the H-D LiveWire (which Mission designed). In a pitch deck they showcased an inverter they claim to have designed from the ground up internally. They showed a picture. It literally still had the Mission Motorsports logo on it. That's another thing. Damon arrogantly claims they designed everything for the bike internally from scratch and THAT'S why it's so amazing. "You see, every other company uses COTS parts and they just don't fit together as well as our blah blah blah" They haven't designed poo poo. They issue repeated slaps to the face to the companies that HAVE designed their own poo poo. There are no COTS battery packs. Zero designed one of the finest air-cooled PMAC motors on the market all by themselves. Who the gently caress cares if Energica uses Cascadia motors and inverters; they're really loving good. I don't see anyone complaining that they're using Ohlins and haven't developed their own forks. A final thing that CEO Jay said that pissed me off was arrogantly claiming he had put over 100,000 miles on his test bikes in 2019. First off, that's an impressive amount of miles. To me that says you'd basically spend most of your days riding and not developing or CEO-ing. Second off, the Mission IP wasn't acquired until April of 2020. What were you riding, Jay? LodeRunner fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:45
|
|
|
LodeRunner posted:Either he's too stupid to realize what he's saying or he's lying somewhere. I honestly don't know which. I think you do though. It's certainly evident to me and I don't have a dog in this fight other than "please don't gently caress up me getting an electric dirt bike in two-three years."
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:01
|
|
|
LodeRunner posted:The absolute BEST stack efficiency for a cylindrical cell with the appropriate connectors, housings, etc. is 65%. This is before anything like liquid cooling which, guess what, Damon claims this pack will have. That's right! Industry first! Using the bulkiest, least power-dense cells, they're going to add liquid cooling and have it be lighter and smaller than everyone else! Just run coolant in the gaps between the cylinders, ez pz 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:04
|
|
|
I know next to nothing about E bikes other than they are basically my lithium ion powered drill on wheels, but I do have to say I really like the look of that battery bank/drive train compared to most of the E offerings on the market. It looks like an engine without trying to be an engine and I'm a sucker for industrial design. As far as all the working bits and if its actually feasible ... yeah I know nothing about it. I just think it looks really nice.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:04
|
|
|
Verman posted:I know next to nothing about E bikes other than they are basically my lithium ion powered drill on wheels, but I do have to say I really like the look of that battery bank/drive train compared to most of the E offerings on the market. It looks like an engine without trying to be an engine and I'm a sucker for industrial design. As far as all the working bits and if its actually feasible ... yeah I know nothing about it. I just think it looks really nice. Yeah it's a lovely rendering. But that's all it is. Again, those little silver cylinders? They need 1,200 of them in that space.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:06
|
|
|
LodeRunner posted:Damon is proudly using 21700s in their battery pack. "You see," they go onto say in their press releases, "it's much easier to stack cylinders than squares."  Joseph-Louis Lagrange has entered the chat
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:14
|
|
|
LodeRunner posted:Damon arrogantly claims they designed everything for the bike internally from scratch and THAT'S why it's so amazing. "You see, every other company uses COTS parts and they just don't fit together as well as our blah blah blah" The last thing in the world I want is a small company who doesn't use COTS parts. When engineers get a bad case of not invented here syndrome you end up with things like the "not meant for cars" screens in Teslas.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:18
|
|
|
I reached out to the absolute smartest battery person I know to ask about the stack efficiency of 21700 cells. They responded with this: "The staggered fill packing for cylinders has a theoretical maximum of 81% fill factor assuming all are touching on all adjacent faces. You need a minimum of 1.3mm spacing for LV pack between cells, this costs ~8% packaging volume, now you're at 73%. Now you need your cell interconnect volume, being single sided wire bonded is the smallest packaging that's mass production friendly, it's 8mm total height above the cell when you're awesome at keeping it all tight. This makes it 78mm vs 70mm for another 89% multiplier to our above 73% value for a total packaging volumetric efficiency of 65% assuming you have no cooling system and just did optimization for energy storage while still passing propagation and being production mfg capable. "
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:21
|
|
|
what if we just poured a bunch of lithium and electrolytes into a big bucket and welded the top on. that's 100% packing efficiency right
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:25
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:what if we just poured a bunch of lithium and electrolytes into a big bucket and welded the top on. that's 100% packing efficiency right I like the idea of one massive cylinder; the implications for an astronomical Amp hour rating are wonderful. But each cell is still very low voltage, including your Home Depot Bucket Battery. You'd need to series them up, obviously. To hit the target of 450vdc well need about 123 buckets.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:29
|
|
|
Damon's just another startup vaporware company for sure. I'm torn with my option of upgrading from an Energica Ego to Ego+. Sure, I'd get 60% more capacity but that battery has a harder time getting rid of the heat. My bike's got a cooled inverter, and the motor's also cooled with oil but that battery's only relying on air to cool itself. Too bad they didn't add liquid cooling to the battery.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
Nfcknblvbl posted:Damon's just another startup vaporware company for sure. I hear you. I legit think that when they designed the new pack the idea was they would target riders who start the day with a full charge, do a 100 mile ride, do 1 full DC charge, then ride 100 miles home. Enough riding for the day. Done. And most people will do something around that. The idiots, like me, want to do longer trips and ride all day. That's why the pack you and I have is perfect because it has the air channels in the front. You and I can ride our 60-70 miles, charge in 30 minutes, and repeat ad nauseum. There is no perfect electric bike right now, so you have to decide which one does the most of what you want.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
Tl;dr it's a coke fueled vaporware scam that will never result in a working vehicle.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 21:12
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:Tl;dr it's a coke fueled vaporware scam that will never result in a working vehicle. It legit may come out, but they're going to have to adjust the stats they claim. Power. Weight. Battery capacity. Features. Price.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 21:31
|
|
|
LodeRunner posted:It legit may come out, but they're going to have to adjust the stats they claim. Power. Weight. Battery capacity. Features. Price. Their financing is entirely dependant on a powerpoint with those stats in it. The moment that's shown to be bullshit the whole thing stops being theoretically profitable and the scheme collapses; the interesting part is how skillfully jay is able to judge when this happens and extract as much money as possible before it does, then whether or not he can evade the authorities. There will never be a bike.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 21:41
|
|
|
The people in the actual industry I talk to about it all believe that he's trying to drive up enough hype so that someone buys him out and he never has to make anything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 21:55
|
|
|
You see, the upside to using 21700s in our battery pack is that should one go bad, you can just roll over to your local vape shop and get a replacement
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 21:59
|
|
|
Lol at making GBS threads on COTS parts. Oh you mean those things that some other company that is an expert in their field already put through a million revisions with other customers and are nearly as perfect AND as cheap as they can get and we could just buy them and save the R&D costs? Nah we’re gonna reinvent the wheel here at Totally Real Bike Company
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:11
|
|
|
Jim Silly-Balls posted:Lol at making GBS threads on COTS parts. Oh you mean those things that some other company that is an expert in their field already put through a million revisions with other customers and are nearly as perfect AND as cheap as they can get and we could just buy them and save the R&D costs? Jay? When did you get an account here
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:16
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:Tl;dr it's a coke fueled vaporware scam that will never result in a working vehicle. tldr electric motorcycles are all trash right now, continue waiting for the big boys to make some
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:20
|
|
|
I like mine 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:30 |
|
|
LodeRunner posted:I like mine speaking of which, do you have a view on why yamaha or honda aren't making one?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:27
|
|