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Just Chamber posted:so yea tldr: I dont think the innocents line was supposed to be taken literally, as we know from his actions that he does care, but if it was it's supposed to show that this is a man so haunted by his actions in his sisters name he just can't see the good in himself. That would be fine for the middle of the story. The end is where Jaime is supposed to realize something about himself, not be conflicted. He goes from growing as a person to reversing right back to "hmm I'm conflicted". Its an anti-arc. The last few seasons were all him growing closer to the common man and further from his family. To suddenly pull a U-turn on the last episode doesn't loving work. Unless the point of the story was "haha, trolled you, you thought this was going somewhere"
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Apr 9, 2021 06:35
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I initially rationalized what Jaime did to Brienne as him knowing that he was going back to Kings Landing to kill Cersei and then die in the process and he was making sure she wouldn't follow him to keep her safe because she'd saddle up in a heartbeat if he'd straight up said "I'm going back to King's Landing to kill my sister." And then, no, he went back to her because he actually legitimately loved her romantically and his past 8 seasons of character development getting him to the point where he realized that Cersei was an irredeemable monster and it was wrong him to be both in love with her and a slave to her whims were wiped away and he was killed by a brick.
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Apr 9, 2021 06:36
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An insane mind posted:Honestly I think by the last season DnD were so poisoned by the idea that they were the ones that made the show great and SuBvErTIng ExPEctaTIoNs that they looked at where all the character arcs were going and went...what if...we just do none of that and 180 everything. HAH GENIUS. Nah, they asked GRRM the ending, he told them, and they shoehorned it in. The reason nothing works is because the show is missing half the characters and plots from the book. To make the story end satisfyingly after cutting half the plots... you need an entirely different ending.
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Apr 9, 2021 06:37
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Sky Shadowing posted:I guess my opinions on Dany's "natural ending" is pretty much thusly this: GRRM has said that Cersei and Dany are foils of women ruling in a patriarchal society, and Cersei so far is the one showing signs of Aerys-esque madness. If the valonqar prophecy really is foreshadowing that Jaime is going to kill her, if Dany's book ending is the same as her show ending as well... if both sides of that foil-coin are "Queen goes crazy and needs to be killed by their lover like a mad dog", I'm going to start feeling the point the author is making is that "women cannot be trusted with power." Yeah it really does feel gross. Along with so many people naming their child "Khaleesi" (which itself was dumb, sure) it really shows you that Dany's sudden heel-turn wasn't really set up and yeah, I agree, it feels rather gross. The writing pretends that "oh this is a word of history" in order to excuse their patriarchal setting, but also plays fast and loose with things like joking about democracy at the end. (And they laugh about the mere idea even though that's basically how the Iron Islands do it but whatever) If you're going to do that then you need to reconcile with the issues. But instead GOT just crams in rape scenes for shock value and acts like its saying something profound but never really does at all. The show and book both flirt with the idea of characters like Sansa growing in power against the grain of the patriarchy and showing how wrong it is, and yet... the show decided to gently caress over Sansa (like so many) and right as she was growing they reversed her. And then they actually have the loving gall to write Sansa to tell the Hound "no actually its a good thing I was raped because its the only way I became a badass woman" like loving yikes! D&D loving suck. Again, remember that they wanted to do a TV show about what if the confederacy won the civil war. These trust-fund dipshits are so high up their asses they don't even realize how badly they should be ashamed. Xealot posted:I think it was a mistake to have him sleep with Brienne in general. I never read their relationship as sexual so much as emotionally intimate; it was more about two people routinely denied respect by the world seeing the value in one another. It just goes into D&D's juvenile thinking. Also remember that Tyrion shames Brienne for being a virgin. Like what the gently caress? In this kingdom? That makes no sense. A lady would be expected to be a virgin if unmarried in this world, but they have no concept of the setting and toss in some college frat boy "lol u virgin" lines. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 06:43
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An insane mind posted:Dany's madness could work, but he should have given dnd the actual trajectory instead of the endpoint. He should have spelled out the beats and themes because all those two twerps could think of was oh yeah she's sad now and let's play the coin flip line again a few times HURR DURR ART. Wouldn't have mattered. Remember the only thing D&D cared about was wrapping this poo poo up. He could have literally offered to write the scripts for them pro bono and they would have to say "no" because he'd end up writing at least 3 more seasons and they needed the story done NOW so they could do starwars because they were loving sick of this fantasy poo poo! GRRM could have written a better S8 than D&D did, but I don't know if anybody, any writer alive, could take GOT from where it ended S7 and use only 10 episodes to tell a satisfying conclusion. That's a gigantic ask. HBO wanted more episodes. GRRM wanted more episodes. D&D wanted off the show. They torpedoed everything. All the cast & crew got hosed over.
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Apr 9, 2021 06:45
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Honestly then d&d should have been booted off by HBO, they want off the show, fine we'll get someone else to finish it. It's not like HBO had any incentive to kill their cash cow, instead d&d managed to kill it and sort of pre-murdered any future cash kiddies springing from it as well. It's almost impressive.
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Apr 9, 2021 09:06
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Zaphod42 posted:The writing pretends that "oh this is a word of history" in order to excuse their patriarchal setting, but also plays fast and loose with things like joking about democracy at the end. (And they laugh about the mere idea even though that's basically how the Iron Islands do it but whatever) I actually do agree with them not making the jump to Full Democracy immediately. It would have been really kind of jarring for Westeros to suddenly jump centuries of political thought ahead in time. Elective monarchy is the obvious baby step towards the future. As any elective monarchy in history will show you, it will go horribly horribly wrong, but baby steps. It's one of my things I really think would be cool is Dany, resurrected, heading back east and building her own nation, with her own rules and morals. A reborn Valyria, or perhaps a new Great Empire of the Dawn. And to symbolize her birthright, she forges herself a new Iron Throne, except not made of the swords of her enemies, made of the chains of the slaves she liberated. A nation not forged by conquest, but by freedom, by the consent of the governed. GRRM has said Dany is inspired by his childhood, where he would be going around his hometown being told "our family used to own that", and GRRM being "I'm going to take it all back someday, you'll see!" You'd figure if Dany follows GRRM's path, her arc would be to realize that it's okay for her family to have lost what they had. It's okay. What's true and right isn't taking back what they've lost, it's building something new and better. Because the great ironic thing is Dany grew up listening to Viserys be told that the smallfolk of Westeros are sewing secret Targaryen banners and toasting their true King. That's not true... but by Dany's own actions, she HAS created a LARGE group of people who probably ARE sewing Targaryen banners and toasting Daenerys in secret. The slaves wanting her to come free them. The slaves she's freed. That's the satisfying Daenerys arc I wanted. Is her stepping away from the pursuit of the Iron Throne, realizing it's toxic and evil, and going on to build something better, something new. That she may have no place she can call home, so she creates her own, with her people, with her family of choice, not blood.
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Apr 9, 2021 13:43
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It's all moot anyway since everyone is going to starve to death in the long winter. Remember when it was a plot point that they only had enough food for a medium-length winter and it was implied that the coming winter would be super long? Then Dany burns all the food and... this is never mentioned again. I mean WINTER IS COMING was pretty much the catchprase of the show, and it never goes anywhere.
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Apr 9, 2021 13:49
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Sky Shadowing posted:I actually do agree with them not making the jump to Full Democracy immediately. It would have been really kind of jarring for Westeros to suddenly jump centuries of political thought ahead in time. The slaves she's freed that she constantly abandons for the next conquest? The ones she calls my people only in a possessive sense? Those people? Dany will never realize the Iron Throne is toxic because she sees it as hers already, just like Viscerys did. I wish I could see Dany in the same rosy light you do buddy and I always like your head canons but I just don't see them happening. It is kind of a shame GRRM didn't just make her anti the Iron Throne from the start or even during her arc. She's seen what it did to Viscerys, she knows she's loved and adored by her people...why would she keep chasing a foreign Throne? To me it would have been so satisfying if all the Westeros lords kept preparing for a Dany threat that never came because she's taking care of her people across the sea. And then Westeros gets backdoored (or northdoored) by the winter and the wights because they're preparing for the wrong threat. And whomever is left tries to rush across the sea and suddenly becomes a problem for Dany because they bring winter with them.
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Apr 9, 2021 14:01
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SimonChris posted:
Ha! I don't know if it's a metaphor or what, but the fact that Winter never really came is hilarious.
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Apr 9, 2021 15:55
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An insane mind posted:Honestly then d&d should have been booted off by HBO, they want off the show, fine we'll get someone else to finish it. It's honestly shocking they weren't kicked off it, it's pretty obvious how badly they were phoning it in by season 7. But then again there is nobody America trusts more than the failson of an investment banker.
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Apr 9, 2021 16:37
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:It's honestly shocking they weren't kicked off it, it's pretty obvious how badly they were phoning it in by season 7. But then again there is nobody America trusts more than the failson of an investment banker. Did you know ravens can traverse entire continents in hours?
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Apr 9, 2021 17:01
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Sky Shadowing posted:I actually do agree with them not making the jump to Full Democracy immediately. It would have been really kind of jarring for Westeros to suddenly jump centuries of political thought ahead in time. You completely misread my point. I'm not saying they should have embraced democracy. I'm saying they shouldn't even be talking about it. (Or, if they do, then bring up the iron islands) Medieval serfs shouldn't be shouting "FREEDOM!" in battle. That's not a thing to them.
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Apr 9, 2021 17:16
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Solice Kirsk posted:Ha! I don't know if it's a metaphor or what, but the fact that Winter never really came is hilarious. They also dropped "the North remembers" right quick and even shat on the lord who keeps the faith in the books. For such a pivotal event they really dropped the ball when it came to exploring the consequences of the Red Wedding for the houses that carried it out. Same poo poo they did after Cersei blew up the sept.
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Apr 9, 2021 17:19
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Groovelord Neato posted:They also dropped "the North remembers" right quick and even shat on the lord who keeps the faith in the books. For such a pivotal event they really dropped the ball when it came to exploring the consequences of the Red Wedding for the houses that carried it out. Same poo poo they did after Cersei blew up the sept. Yep. GRRM's world was one of millions of people, hundreds of families and houses. Every noble house had cousins and aunts and uncles and bannermen with their own families and relationships. Anybody could factor into the story and everybody had their own motivations. Anybody can die. D&D's world has like 20 people total, and only those 20 people can do anything. The other characters are background npc redshirts with no agency. Martell dies, welp, that means there's nobody left to rule, so one of our 20 has to take over... how about the sand snakes? Everything is just dumb hollywood heroics where those 20 people do stupid things but don't die because they have names. The difference in the intellectual level of the writing is just staggering. D&D's episodes are all just jamming cliches and concepts from other works into these characters because "IDK it looked cool in that one movie"
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Apr 9, 2021 17:36
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Zaphod42 posted:Yep. It's still hilarious to me how they were crowing about their confederacy show and working in the star wars universe 'because of our skill at writing and creating a living, breathing world' and then managed to completely gently caress all that good will away by showing that they really were just failsons of the highest order coasting by on the work of the actors, set and costume designers et all.
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Apr 9, 2021 17:46
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Has there ever been a quicker fall from grace?
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Apr 9, 2021 17:57
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Zaphod42 posted:D&D's world has like 20 people total, and only those 20 people can do anything. Maybe they were perfectly suited to making a Star War 
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Apr 9, 2021 18:02
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cirus posted:Did you know
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Apr 9, 2021 18:03
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PittTheElder posted:Maybe they were perfectly suited to making a Star War Yeah, I agree its a problem with Star Wars too. The original trilogy you can somewhat excuse as focusing on Luke and just being the initial story. The prequels do focus on Anakin and Obi-wan, but for all their flaws they do introduce a ton of new locations, cultures, characters, etc. The new films though, its purely repeating the same stuff and using the same popular characters. But, the new films weren't especially popular so I don't think that's what Disney really wants going forward  The most popular Star Wars thing lately by far was Mandalorian, and Season 1 was all about introducing new characters in a totally new story and setting, and people loved that poo poo! Ah but Season 2 they couldn't help but add more callbacks and characters we already know, and I think it was much weaker for it.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:06
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On freefolk ages ago I saw an alleged "leak" that was that D&D weren't the only ones tired of GoT, that even the actors were starting to get ready to be done. That's something I honestly hadn't ever really considered, that it's got to be tiresome to every year, spend a significant portion of your life doing the exact same thing. Being actors is a job with a lot of variety, which I'm sure enticed a lot of people into that profession. They didn't get into their careers to endlessly play the same character in the same story (what is this, a soap opera?). A part of me wonders if that was part of the reasoning for the shortened final two seasons. That in the earlier seasons, it wasn't too much work. The story bounced between so many plotlines- for example, Jon in the North, Sansa in KL, Arya and the Hound's Excellent Adventures, Dany in Essos, whatever diarrhea the Dorne storyline became, Tyrion, Brienne, Ramsay and Theon- that it was not much work for one specific actor. They had their weekly check-in on their storyline and then done. Less work than your average Hollywood movie. When Cersei blew up the Great Sept of Baelor, the number of active storylines consolidated down to Team Dany (and Jon), King's Landing, and the North. Meaning a lot more screentime for characters. The formula that had somewhat worked for checking in with each plotline for a few minutes each episode became a lot harder to stretch. A full 10 episode season becomes a lot more work, a lot more time, for the actors. That said you'll never convince me that the actors didn't have conversations with GRRM about their characters and where they would eventually wind up. Hell, Conleth Hill came out just a week or two ago and said he had exchanged emails with GRRM about Varys. You can't tell me Emilia Clarke, after nearly dying twice to aneurisms and dealing with horrific anxiety about being an actress as a result, wouldn't have had conversations with GRRM (who seemed very fond of her) about Dany's final fate. Because Emilia has said Dany was her inspiration, her source of strength, and Dany's show ending caught her VERY off-guard. She said after she read the scripts she spent hours just wandering around London in a daze, and had panicked phone calls with family members where- without saying Dany's final fate- she basically sought anxious reassurance (something I've become very familiar with ) about "do you think Dany is evil? Could she ever do something that would make you not like her?"
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Apr 9, 2021 18:13
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Thing is GOT has a perfect built-in solution to that. If an actor wants off the show... kill off their character in some amazing twist! As long as they continued to introduce new characters every season, old characters could continue to be killed off regularly. I think you could maintain that for a long time and it'd sure be better than obvious plot armor for main characters. That fear that your favorite character could bite it at any moment was one of the best things the show had going, that tension. I know even as I was completely losing faith in the show with how stupid the writing was in S6 and S7, one big thing that kept me watching was wondering if Ser Davos would actually survive or not.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:17
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Sky Shadowing posted:On freefolk ages ago I saw an alleged "leak" that was that D&D weren't the only ones tired of GoT, that even the actors were starting to get ready to be done. Say what you want about the actors and that situation, but there was to my knowledge absolutely nothing stopping D&D from outsourcing the writing, other than their own hubris.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:33
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I think it's fairly obvious that they stopped caring about GRRM's vision for the show around Season 4. It came out recently that in the last episode GRRM ever wrote for the show, "The Lion and the Rose", he had fairly detailed notes detailing foreshadowing for future seasons- most notably, saying to really hype Ramsay's dogs up, since there will come a time when the Stark direwolves go against them and he wanted them to be viewed as a threat- and then D&D ignored nearly all of it. Didn't they outright say that they hated all the prophecies and magic and crap? Was that the same time they said they didn't want to appeal to fantasy fans, they wanted to appeal to NFL players and "soccer moms?" (Good job on that one, by the way, Aaron Rodgers loving ripped them to shreds)
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Apr 9, 2021 18:39
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Zaphod42 posted:Thing is GOT has a perfect built-in solution to that. If an actor wants off the show... kill off their character in some amazing twist! Davos was honestly great. Like, not matter what D and D gave him to work with he spun it into good stuff.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:41
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Sky Shadowing posted:I think it's fairly obvious that they stopped caring about GRRM's vision for the show around Season 4. Oh really? I'm not really up with American Football, did Aaron Rodgers hate the show or something?
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Apr 9, 2021 18:41
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An insane mind posted:Oh really? I'm not really up with American Football, did Aaron Rodgers hate the show or something? He was apparently in one of the last episodes as a cameo (although he says he's not the guy most people think is him, so maybe he was cut) But even after appearing in the show he said stuff like Football Man posted:"You come down to the ending and Tyrion says the person with the best story is Bran?!" E: Found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWiG16oVWVA Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 18:52
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Oh my sweet summer children, I have better for you than rumors of deleted tweets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hj91kz0Cn0 I have VIDEO.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:56
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An insane mind posted:Davos was honestly great. Like, not matter what D and D gave him to work with he spun it into good stuff. Apparently Liam Cunningham talked DnD out of Davos having a massive crush on Missendei because it would make his relathionship with Shireen look really dodgy in retrospect.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:30
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Zaphod42 posted:As long as they continued to introduce new characters every season, old characters could continue to be killed off regularly. I think you could maintain that for a long time and it'd sure be better than obvious plot armor for main characters. That fear that your favorite character could bite it at any moment was one of the best things the show had going, that tension. This is I think is one of the big difficulties with the (as described by Lindsay Ellis) 'sociological approach' the we all liked, over the long term; it's natural that established characters would die off, and new personalities would come into the story to fill the vacuum left by departed characters. This is what would happen in any real event. But GRRM's track record with those new characters had not been great, at least when it came to making those characters interesting to the audience. Which I would accept might be a large part due to audience expectations more than anything, but we also got ~Darkstar~, so it's not all that. And then of course D&D strolled in, and like typical lovely storywriters, gave zero fucks about any of that and just wanted to write for the established characters, and reduced it to the 20 person universe.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:08
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Sky Shadowing posted:On freefolk ages ago I saw an alleged "leak" that was that D&D weren't the only ones tired of GoT, that even the actors were starting to get ready to be done. Isaac Hempstead-Wright said that when he got the script for the final episode and read it, he thought it was a joke, and when he called up David and Dan to ask them for the real script, he had a panic attack when they told him it was in fact real.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:12
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Zaphod42 posted:
Yeah I barely cared by the end of season 2 because it was all star wars universe stuff that made the place feel small once again. Everyone's world in GOT gets so small from season 1 to the end going from all these different players and ambitions to nothing.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:17
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PittTheElder posted:This is I think is one of the big difficulties with the (as described by Lindsay Ellis) 'sociological approach' the we all liked, over the long term; it's natural that established characters would die off, and new personalities would come into the story to fill the vacuum left by departed characters. This is what would happen in any real event. But GRRM's track record with those new characters had not been great, at least when it came to making those characters interesting to the audience. Which I would accept might be a large part due to audience expectations more than anything, but we also got ~Darkstar~, so it's not all that. Griff was pretty great. Everybody loves Victarian. Euron maybe less so, but I think a lot of that is how he pops up out of nowhere. Doran owned. I guess Barristan counts as he gets promoted to PoV. I think the problem was how fragmented the later books become. The first three books, nearly everyone has at least 5 chapters per book, and people like Ned/Tyrion get double digits. Then when Feast/Dance hits suddenly Arya and Sansa drop to 3 chapters, and we get loads of people with just 1 or 2 - Areo, Arys (who gives a gently caress about Arys? I can't even remember him) Arianna, Asha (lots of As). It feels so scattershot.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:34
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Zaphod42 posted:Thing is GOT has a perfect built-in solution to that. If an actor wants off the show... kill off their character in some amazing twist! I dunno, that's how a soap opera operates I don't think this would hold water for plot driven serial, when you have a narrative that puts emphasis on some special relationship between the protagonists and the plot and the protagonists and each other they are not really interchangeable with other characters. This is not to say that the cast needs to become stratified, clearly it doesn't, but at the end of the day we were watching the show hoping to learn how Jon, Dany and the other characters we've been introduced to early on play into the ice elf and iron throne plots. I never thought D&D's decision to cutoff at 8 seasons was in itself a bad decision, it's really more about being complete hacks and not taking the time back in season 4 to plan for what they're gonna do once they have no books and making sure they set things up properly, there's no reason to adventure to Dorne if you plan to poochie the entire part of the story on the first episode of the next season.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:35
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An insane mind posted:Honestly then d&d should have been booted off by HBO, they want off the show, fine we'll get someone else to finish it. Especially since obviously everyone EXCEPT those two book report failing motherfuckers obviously wanted to keep Game of Thrones going. GRRM wanted it, HBO wanted it, the actors probably wanted it.
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Apr 9, 2021 21:05
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Sky Shadowing posted:On freefolk ages ago I saw an alleged "leak" that was that D&D weren't the only ones tired of GoT, that even the actors were starting to get ready to be done. I can see this - 10 years is a long time to be on a show that takes up so much of the calendar that you can't do much else. However I imagine most of them would've been okay with that if the material had been worth a drat in the latter seasons. Also for a lot of them this took them from basically nobodies to solidly B or C tier, with a decent paycheck the whole time and they can ride the con circuit forever now. There are definitely worse gigs.
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Apr 9, 2021 21:36
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Mat Cauthon posted:I can see this - 10 years is a long time to be on a show that takes up so much of the calendar that you can't do much else. However I imagine most of them would've been okay with that if the material had been worth a drat in the latter seasons. I know a lot of them loved playing the characters until poo poo stopped making sense. Remember Peter Dinklage talking about Tyrion's descisions in the later seasons?
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Apr 9, 2021 21:51
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There's still a big part of me that thinks they left Dany's ending, specifically, somewhat open-ended (we don't see where Drogon took her body, except Sam mentions he was heading towards Volantis (where Kinvara is), and the last song on the "For the Throne" album "Pray (High Valyrian)" sampling Melisandre speaking the Resurrection Prayer except the lyrics are specifically "we can bring her back"), because the plan is for there to be a sequel series of sorts. Frankly believing as I do that Dany is Jon's sister... I've kind of entertained fantasies of exactly how I would "save" the franchise, and the exact method I would do it is, do a Robert's Rebellion prequel series, and spring the twist there. Imagine that moment. If they're twins, just when you're thinking Jon is being born (or just moments after he IS born)... "It's a girl!" The entire fandom goes "wait, WHAT?" Then, BOOM! sequel series, Resurrected Dany (or maybe her name's really Visenya), and all the fallout of her discovering her true parentage and the Starks finding out A) she's their kin, and B) she's back.
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Apr 9, 2021 21:58
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Snyder cut/FMA:B of season 8 (and extra seasons) when???
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Apr 9, 2021 22:17
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Megera posted:Snyder cut/FMA:B of season 8 (and extra seasons) when??? Nominate me for President of Game of Thrones, and I will turn my fanfics into fics.
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Apr 9, 2021 22:20
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