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Jagermonster posted:I can’t get past how dumb it is that Hoskins and Walker were chasing down super soldiers on their own. They should have at least had a squad of goons with machine guns with them who get easily taken out or something. They did but last episode Walker convinced Hoskins to go "off book" after the GRC raids weren't working so they presumably started tracking Sam and Bucky away from orders/official channels.
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Apr 9, 2021 17:44
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Another reference I didn't see anyone mention was Walker raising his shield. In Civil War, Tony was laying down, prone, fully aware that Steve could kill him because his helmet was beaten off of him and he was vulnerable. Steve raised his shield. Tony was ready for it. But, Steve spared him and used the shield to bust the arc reactor and power down the suit. Walker decided not to show mercy.
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Apr 9, 2021 17:45
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tsob posted:You could possibly argue that the process Cap underwent was better too. The show probably won't, but if Cap is the only person subjected to that process and he is also the only super soldier who hasn't gone nutso, then it's possible to make the inference that the process that the other scientist guy designed was just better. Isiah may not have gone overboard either, but he was also in jail for a large chunk of his life and just wanted to be left alone for the rest from the sounds of it, so he wouldn't have as much chance to show any flaws in his personality that the serum exacerbated. Zemo's wrong. Lamar and Karli are right. The serum doesn't corrupt you or turn you evil, you just gain the power to be the person you are with less restrictions. Walker's the perfect example because he was cracking and on the edge before the serum. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 17:47
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Oh it definitely takes away from that, but at the same time, it allows you to stop people worshipping Steve as some kind of singular angel of human nature. Which the show has also implied multiple times isn't a good thing. It's mostly antagonists talking about how representations like Cap or the shield aren't a good thing though (Karli, Zemo; maybe someone else I'm forgetting). That said, Sam has also talked about how maybe he should have just destroyed the shield and seems to sympathize with the view that Captain America as an ideal isn't a good thing. He'll probably turn around on his feelings due to the conflict by the end though, and realize that a symbol is a good thing depending on how you use it or whatever. As I said, it's probably not going to happen anyway, but it's possible.
tsob fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 17:53
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STAC Goat posted:Maybe, but that takes away from the core idea that Steve was who he was because of who he was before the serum. Its why he was chosen. The soldier Tommy Lee Jones wanted to pick was basically John Walker. Erskine wants Steve because he's not the ideal solder, but the right guy. Zemo doesn't really say that. He just says anyone who pursues super power should by definition not be trusted with it. They don't need to be corrupted or become evil. It's the inheritant desire that's wrong.
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Apr 9, 2021 17:58
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Thundercracker posted:Zemo doesn't really say that. He just says anyone who pursues super power should by definition not be trusted with it. They don't need to be corrupted or become evil. It's the inheritant desire that's wrong. So he's like Douglas Adams “Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”
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Apr 9, 2021 17:59
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tsob posted:Oh it definitely takes away from that, but at the same time, it allows you to stop people worshipping Steve as some kind of singular angel of human nature. Which the show has also implied multiple times isn't a good thing. It's mostly antagonists talking about how representations like Cap or the shield aren't a good thing though (Karli, Zemo; maybe someone else I'm forgetting). That said, Sam has also talked about how maybe he should have just destroyed the shield and seems to sympathize with the view that Captain America as an ideal isn't a good thing. He'll probably turn around on his feelings due to the conflict by the end though, and realize that a symbol is a good thing depending on how you use it or whatever. As I said, it's probably not going to happen anyway, but it's possible. I think the show's getting around to the idea that Steve was good but not singular. The show is filled with people who idolize Steve Rogers and strive to be something like him while riddled with insecurity that they can't, or bemoaning the larger truth behind the symbolism. The morale of the story is probably that Sam, Bucky, Isiah, Sharon, Karli, and anyone else can work to be "As good as Steve" because he wasn't some god or angel. He was just a guy who tried to do the right thing. The shield isn't a symbol of Steve's perfectness, its a symbol of the ideals he tried to live up to. So I think the resolution is that a lot of people just decide to try and stop worshiping Steve and just start living up to his example. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 18:01
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To get a little sci-fi pseudo-scientific, the procedure Steve took is two parts. He’s injected with a biochemical serum (possibly even viral to explain how it rewrites DNA and modifies cells). Then that biochemical agent is bathed in gamma radiation (alongside his body itself) which activates it and provides energy for the mutation. Likely Red Skull underwent the same combination (and hence his heavily mutated head). Traditionally, when Bruce Banner is working on a replicant serum (and likely in the MCU as that’s been implied) he focuses on the Gamma Radiation aspect, and his serum is thus a little incorrect in that it continues to be activated by sources of Gamma Radiation, but at least in the MCU it has worked somewhat (Bruce transforms likely because he’s always wanted the ability to act in stressful situations like watching his father beat him and his mother if the comic backstory holds). Considering the nature of Isaiah’s History, I imagine he would have also underwent the two-step procedure (serum+radiation bath), but from his blood already activated biochemical agents were harvested, and those were used to make the new serums that work without radiation baths. Either that or the new serums are pre-activated, so they work immediately when injected but don’t have the dramatic physical mutations of Steve and Red Skull and Hulk, as the virus simply rewrites/rebuilds their body, without additional energy for more extreme mutation. Isaiah’s lack of physical mutations implies to me that like Steve, he was a perfect candidate, or was given the prototype of the non-gamma bath serum alongside his fellow soldiers, which would have a very high mortality rate given it’s an agent that rewrites DNA and rebuilds bodies. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 18:05
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tsob posted:Oh it definitely takes away from that, but at the same time, it allows you to stop people worshipping Steve as some kind of singular angel of human nature. Which the show has also implied multiple times isn't a good thing. It's mostly antagonists talking about how representations like Cap or the shield aren't a good thing though (Karli, Zemo; maybe someone else I'm forgetting). That said, Sam has also talked about how maybe he should have just destroyed the shield and seems to sympathize with the view that Captain America as an ideal isn't a good thing. He'll probably turn around on his feelings due to the conflict by the end though, and realize that a symbol is a good thing depending on how you use it or whatever. As I said, it's probably not going to happen anyway, but it's possible. That's the entire point of Steve Rodgers as Captain America. He is the ideal. He is the person that everyone aspires to be. The series is specifically about lionizing Steve and the notion of who should take that mantle now that he's "gone", and what that mantle even looks like in the modern times. All of the Major players have specific parts of Steve in them(hell could even include Zemo in this), but are lacking the other pieces represented by the other characters that make Rodgers who he is completely. Sam thinks he should have destroyed the shield because he doesn't feel like anyone including himself is worthy of it, and is mad it's being used by Captain MAGA.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:09
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All I know is I can’t wait for Sam to take the shield back from this unworthy cop motherfucker. What a wonderfully hateable character.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:09
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Sir DonkeyPunch posted:Idk, being Captain America isn’t something you should aspire to be, and wanting the mantle means you shouldn’t have it Azhais posted:So he's like Douglas Adams This explains where I got this from
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Apr 9, 2021 18:14
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Thundercracker posted:Zemo doesn't really say that. He just says anyone who pursues super power should by definition not be trusted with it. They don't need to be corrupted or become evil. It's the inheritant desire that's wrong. That is setting it up for Sam to take the shield perfectly though. He keeps turning it down, and won't take the serum either even if given the chance.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:14
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I think the point is that Sam gave up "the shield" because he didn't think himself worthy, but it didn't just end up retired. Someone else picked it up. And now a man much less "worthy" carries it and everything it represents and now its covered in blood. So Sam's real choice isn't whether he can be the perfect ideal he sees Steve as, its if he can step up to try and do as good a job as he can like Steve did. The fact Sam is also the only person actually trying to resolve this situation peacefully and not see Karli as evil just hammers home that Steve was right.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:16
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Dexo posted:That's the entire point of Steve Rodgers as Captain America. He is the ideal. He is the person that everyone aspires to be. It's not a point I particularly like then, personally. The same way I hated the revelation at the end of Batman Beyond that Terry was Bruce's genetic progeny, because only someone of Bruce's genetics could be Batman. The entire point to me is that anyone could be Cap/Batman under the right conditions, not that it's basically only one person who could ever be them because of something unique to them. Cap being an ideal doesn't mean much if others can't also live up to that ideal. Sam might (and hopefully will) by the end of the show or at least by the end of his time in the MCU, but if it's just "well he can't be Steve, but he can be close with someone else's help to make up for his own failings" then I can't say as I like what they're going for.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:16
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Very good episode. Zemo gleefully destroying the vials of serum was excellent. ‘Principled’ villains are my favorite, as they aren’t just mustache twirling nut jobs who want to watch the world burn. Zemo hates the very existence of super humans and he stuck to his guns. Though, I dare say that besides his family was collateral damage in a supers fight, Zemo hates supers because they are more powerful than him and people like him. Zemo is wealthy and royalty, his family’s influence going back ages. Supers are ‘new money’, moving in next door and tipping the scales that he had his thumb on. Zemo may not be a fascist and talks a good game about the powerful rolling over the weak, but he definitely wants a return to the status quo where he’s on top and no mortal can ruin his day. Also, you know, he’s more than willing to blow up the UN and poo poo.[spoiler] [spoiler]I also found Walker to be a sympathetic villain. He is a dick and an authoritarian, but he just wants to do his best and keep people safe. Unfortunately, between his prior experiences as a soldier and releasing even being the best isn’t enough to rumble in the world of supers, he’s cracking up. He can’t be Captain America no matter how hard he tries and that shame and fear is expressed as hard nosed dickishness. Walker doesn’t realize being Captain America means acting as America should be and not as it is. Steve was in an American military that only want him to sacrifice his body and life. John is in a military that wants him to sacrifice his soul. John Walker is very much a Captain America for the post 9/11 world. And that’s why he can’t be Captain America at all.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:17
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Sir DonkeyPunch posted:This explains where I got this from It’s also similar to what Erskine tells Steve the night before the procedure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilacIxq3T7g “This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man who has known power for all his life may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion.”
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Apr 9, 2021 18:21
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seaborgium posted:That is setting it up for Sam to take the shield perfectly though. He keeps turning it down, and won't take the serum either even if given the chance. I don't think that the serum issue is an issue anymore even if he did want it, I think Walker took the last dose that presently exists
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Apr 9, 2021 18:22
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Marsupial Ape posted:Very good episode. I'm an old Army vet and tbh I hated Walker Until this episode and especially the conversation with Battlestar, where I suddenly found him to be entirely sympathetic. He's not a bad person, he's a product of a bad environment, trying to live up to ideals that have been twisted as weapons to "motivate" him his entire life. He's more pitiful than anything. If I am wishing the best for him I have to hope that his path includes a conversation with Steve Rogers some day. Also, on that topic, I really enjoyed the conversation between Sam and John, where Sam acted a lot like I imagined Steve would have (deciding to go in alone to speak to Karli, agreeing with her ideals but not her methods, offering a peaceful resolution) and John showed he was entirely un-prepared for the job. Great episode.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:22
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tsob posted:It's not a point I particularly like then, personally. The same way I hated the revelation at the end of Batman Beyond that Terry was Bruce's genetic progeny, because only someone of Bruce's genetics could be Batman. The entire point to me is that anyone could be Cap/Batman under the right conditions, not that it's basically only one person who could ever be them because of something unique to them. Cap being an ideal doesn't mean much if others can't also live up to that ideal. Sam might (and hopefully will) by the end of the show or at least by the end of his time in the MCU, but if it's just "well he can't be Steve, but he can be close with someone else's help to make up for his own failings" then I can't say as I like what they're going for. I don't think its especially true. We see Steve mess up a bunch in the MCU. His entire dynamic with Tony is all about the shared guilt the two of them have for their mistakes. Bucky is the living symbol of Steve's sense of failure. Over and over again he's telling Natasha or Wanda or Tony or Bucky tat he isn't perfect and they just have to keep trying. And that's ultimately Steve's virtue. He doesn't quit trying to help things, even when it all goes wrong. Granted, Steve's not inventing any killer robots. And maybe that makes Steve's failures seems smaller. But I think its just that when Steve fails we understand the ideal he was chasing. So his failures aren't failures, they're steps on the path to success. Marsupial Ape posted:Very good episode. Yeah, I think its notable Zemo calls super soldiers "supremacists." Zemo hates super powered because they're more powerful. But he does this while flagrantly throwing his wealth and privilege around. Zemo is very much what he hates, and that's actually probably a consistent character trait since I think he clearly blamed himself for not protecting his family as much as he blamed the Avengers. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 18:24
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I definitely bought the tension when Zemo was holding up the serum like he was considering taking it for a moment or two
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Apr 9, 2021 18:32
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Sir DonkeyPunch posted:I definitely bought the tension when Zemo was holding up the serum like he was considering taking it for a moment or two Me too, but i guess he just wanted to look it square in the eye before he took the mantle of the Vial Smasher
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Apr 9, 2021 18:49
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StrugglingHoneybun posted:Me too, but i guess he just wanted to look it square in the eye before he took the mantle of the Vial Smasher 
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Apr 9, 2021 18:59
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STAC Goat posted:I don't think its especially true. We see Steve mess up a bunch in the MCU. His entire dynamic with Tony is all about the shared guilt the two of them have for their mistakes. Bucky is the living symbol of Steve's sense of failure. Over and over again he's telling Natasha or Wanda or Tony or Bucky tat he isn't perfect and they just have to keep trying. And that's ultimately Steve's virtue. He doesn't quit trying to help things, even when it all goes wrong. Oh I definitely agree that Steve wasn't perfect in reality, but I think the show is presenting a myriad of people as viewing him as perfect and also pointing out that because he was a symbol that his faults were overlooked and he became an inhuman ideal. I'm not sure where the show is going to come down because of it, but I'd imagine it's likely to be something like you're presenting with Sam deciding to live up to Steve's ideals regardless of his own faults or those of Cap in some fashion. That said, in thinking about it earlier I'd almost prefer Sam doesn't come out of this as Captain America or deciding to take up the shield. Sam seems quite comfortable as the Falcon, both as an identity and in a fight. He was taking on the Dora Milaje and super soldiers with the same easy confidence this episode using the suit/wings, and that's great on it's own, for instance. I think it'd be nice to have him come out of this deciding that he'll live up to Steve's ideal as a person rather than as a hero and establish himself as his own hero, rather than inheriting some kind of title. Then forming a new Avengers around himself with Bucky/Sharon's help (presuming she's not the Power Broker) as the moral center of that Avengers, rather than around a new Captain America. At which point, what becomes of the shield/title? Well, I do think it'd be nice if he decided to give it to Isiah as his way of apologizing on behalf of America for all the poo poo Isiah went through and that obviously spinning out in to Isiah's grandson inheriting the shield and title, not to live up to the ideal of Steve but to honor his grandfather. Sam inherit Steve's morals since he knew him, while Elijah inherits the physical title through Isiah and becomes just another hero, rather than the symbol of America to the entire world. Or becomes that symbol via a different lineage with none of that social baggage because he personally thinks of Isiah when he's inheriting rather than Steve. As an alternate, and much longer shot, it'd be fun to see Karli as the new Cap. Someone representing a different side of America, as a refugee taken in by America (which, yeah, that hasn't happened; but for the sake of argument) but representing the best of what it can be to the world now that she's seen how awful that power can be in the wrong hands up close, and with a more anti-government streak/agenda. Also, going off the trailers, it seems like next episode will be about Sam/Bucky taking down Walker, since there's a sequence in some of the trailers of Sam practising with the shield and then him and Bucky going off as partners to do something. So Walker is taken down next episode, Sam takes the shield, then the final episode is them going after Zemo/Power Broker? Or else that sequence was a fakeout in some fashion, I suppose. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 19:08
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May I say that I LOVED the look of this (as the actor's face expressions are amazing) :  And Walker's hand just twitching at the end. The little details make for the best stuff. I hope next episode starts with a montage of how the videos go viral, and how the USA tries to save face (either by throwing Walker under the bus, or doing a Fox News style PR campaign). Desperado Bones fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 19:09
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tsob posted:...At which point, what becomes of the shield... I wonder if it might be given back to the Wakandans to melt down into something more useful.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:26
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Yeah the actor playing Walker did a good job with the facial expression at the end there, sort of flashing through a mix of a nervous dog that has made a mess on the floor, a proud kid and an almost vacant face. Echoing what someone else said that the editing in the early parts of that scene felt a little odd, like they wanted to do some hallucination stuff but then didn't. Lot of horror movie framing and such.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:29
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Bucky finally not being triggered by the Winter Soldier words made me cry. I have to rewatch this episode. That scene, wonderful and impactful as it was, put a downer on the rest of it except the death by shield bit. The low hum in the background at the start of the last third of the episode becoming a crescendo when the shield was striking felt like a call back to the entranced TWS theme. Credits to the sound crew because the squelches and metallic noises made me squirm.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:37
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Umbra Dubium posted:I wonder if it might be given back to the Wakandans to melt down into something more useful. War Rhino fetch toy.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:53
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It's really cute how when one person dies, everyone immediately stops fighting. Reminiscent of when kids fight and someone gets a lil' too hurt, but in this case it' adults supposedly fighting to the death (what with the knives and everything), which kind of gives up the game.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:04
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The World Inferno posted:It's really cute how when one person dies, everyone immediately stops fighting. Reminiscent of when kids fight and someone gets a lil' too hurt, but in this case it' adults supposedly fighting to the death (what with the knives and everything), which kind of gives up the game.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:09
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The World Inferno posted:It's really cute how when one person dies, everyone immediately stops fighting. Reminiscent of when kids fight and someone gets a lil' too hurt, but in this case it' adults supposedly fighting to the death (what with the knives and everything), which kind of gives up the game. Karli used Sam to draw Walker and Hoskins into an ambush so they could kill Walker, it makes sense they would leave once his sidekick was dead instead.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:13
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The World Inferno posted:It's really cute how when one person dies, everyone immediately stops fighting. Reminiscent of when kids fight and someone gets a lil' too hurt, but in this case it' adults supposedly fighting to the death (what with the knives and everything), which kind of gives up the game. I guess they know they just killed the friend of the guy who they thought was going to be easy prey but has now turned the tables and has been loving them up a bit. Then their leader runs away as well so it's probably time to try and get out of there.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:15
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I think the point is that when Lamar died everyone realized a line had been crossed. Karli and the Flag Smashers felt the weight of the death. None of them are evil. They're not Zemo who kills coldly and with no remorse. So the fact that Karli killed a weaker person than her hit. Its hardr than just saying they have to kill Captain America. Taking a life means something.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:22
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That was a good episode but it's a bit weird that Sam and Bucky are passive characters in this story. The drama is the conflict between the ideological views of Zemo, Walker, and to a lesser extent Karli (because as this episode points out, her views are basically an incoherent blend of Zemo and Walker's and are really just 'please stop oppressing me'). The titular characters spend most of their time passively along for the ride or just asking everyone else to calm down please. e: ^^ that doesn't work because as of the end of the previous episode that line had been crossed and by some distance.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:24
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I loved Zemo getting bopped on the noggin by the shield. Is there a gif of that? Good episode, but I'm getting increasingly worried about where they're going to land with Karli. I'm really not interested in a 'both sides' story or the conclusion that she's just a well meaning but misguided child ("She's just a kid"). I hope the lesson Sam takes from Walker being exactly what Captain America would be in real life is that you can't affect change by playing along with systems that breed men like that. The fact that they've had her kill people in two episodes running, and threaten to kill an innocent woman and her family, indicates that they don't know what the gently caress they're doing with the character. stev fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 20:25
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Alchenar posted:That was a good episode but it's a bit weird that Sam and Bucky are passive characters in this story. The drama is the conflict between the ideological views of Zemo, Walker, and to a lesser extent Karli (because as this episode points out, her views are basically an incoherent blend of Zemo and Walker's and are really just 'please stop oppressing me'). The titular characters spend most of their time passively along for the ride or just asking everyone else to calm down please. Killing someone with your bare hands might impact differently. Killing someone when its not deliberate might hit more. Killing someone who's name and face you recognize who has a friend standing right there might hit more. Every death should matter. If you kill a bunch of people and then become cold to killing another then you're a monster.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:31
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Alchenar posted:e: ^^ that doesn't work because as of the end of the previous episode that line had been crossed and by some distance. Eh, there's a distance in blowing people up without being there afterward vs punching a guy so hard into a pillar that it causes enough internal damage for him to die, even if that happened as you were intending to stab his buddy, presumably she'd have reacted somewhat similarly if she'd killed Walker as well when it actually came to it.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:32
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thebardyspoon posted:Yeah the actor playing Walker did a good job with the facial expression at the end there, sort of flashing through a mix of a nervous dog that has made a mess on the floor, a proud kid and an almost vacant face. Agreed on Walker. Russell had several really good moments in this episode. Cage Kicker posted:I'm an old Army vet and tbh I hated Walker Until this episode and especially the conversation with Battlestar, where I suddenly found him to be entirely sympathetic. He's not a bad person, he's a product of a bad environment, trying to live up to ideals that have been twisted as weapons to "motivate" him his entire life. He's more pitiful than anything. If I am wishing the best for him I have to hope that his path includes a conversation with Steve Rogers some day. Also, on that topic, I really enjoyed the conversation between Sam and John, where Sam acted a lot like I imagined Steve would have (deciding to go in alone to speak to Karli, agreeing with her ideals but not her methods, offering a peaceful resolution) and John showed he was entirely un-prepared for the job. Great episode. I thought Mackie did a good job in the episode and he really does seem earnest to me. I really like his Sam Wilson as a character and how he comes from a place of compassion and hope. I like that he will try a peaceful resolution if there is even a small chance it works. I'm still hoping he dons the costume and shield as he would be a good Captain America. Like you goons said... Captain America should stand for a world that should be and not a world that currently is. Also it will make chuds furious and that will make me giggle. Imagine Fox News the next month after: "CAPTAIN AMERICA IS CANCELLED!!!" edit: stev posted:The fact that they've had her kill people in two episodes running, and threaten to kill an innocent woman and her family, indicates that they don't know what the gently caress they're doing with the character. That was a bluff. The one threat Sam would 100% take seriously. She needed Sam to take her seriously and come alone so she could ambush Walker and kill the symbol. She didn't have the desire nor means to fly to America to kill his sister and her kids. It was still a hosed up thing to do but no way was she actually going to do it. She even says she could have ambushed Sam but he's not the symbol of oppression. Fairly sure she WAS going to execute Walker on vid and post it online so she is no innocent kid either. She could have wanted to just beat him badly on vid but no way to determine how far she was actually going to go as... yaknow. The writers seem to be deliberately going in a direction but I don't think it will be a simple "both people are equally bad" message. At least I hope. Also killing Battlestar was an accident. That was why they were all a bit freaked out... well that and killing someone close is far different than a bomb. Doom2020! fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 20:39
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I also like that Bucky was constantly throwing the knives into the ground when he had them, as a means to disarm vs just killing them, even though he easily could have.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:47
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Yeah, its a good foreshadowing when Bucky throws the knife to the side of the guy's head and we see the Flag Smasher react like he thought it was going somewhere else. Bucky's no longer a killer in a scene where multiple people kill and it affects. And that plays into the deprograming scene, the therapy, last week's Zemo trying to gently caress with him that he's still the Winter Soldier, and his whole story. I remain totally open to the idea of Sam decided to give the shield to Bucky. I think there's something very fitting to it.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:52
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