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John_A_Tallon posted:That's right, because those goals are not things that the democrats actually value. Climate change isn't important to them, nor are working environments that are safe from sex pests like Cuomo. It's literally not possible to hit those targets unless your comfortable without things like mobility, electricity, buildings, modern medicine, etc. You are being completely unrealistic in your expectations and are asking for something that hasn't ever occurred in politics.
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Apr 9, 2021 22:01
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:It's literally not possible to hit those targets unless your comfortable without things like mobility, electricity, buildings, modern medicine, etc. You are being completely unrealistic in your expectations and are asking for something that hasn't ever occurred in politics. I do like how you've gone out of your way to conflate the issue. Surely we can have a party free of rapists, molesters, abusers, sexual predators, and creeps without giving up on electricity, modern medicine, or buildings. As for climate change, that's an issue that you literally introduced to muddy the waters. Stop doing that. It's rude.
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Apr 9, 2021 22:04
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Corky Romanovsky posted:Curious meta going on with the thread's rating. Doesn't look like too many votes, because of the fluctuations, but it does speak volumes that several posters would go out of their way to down vote this topic. Competing hypothesis: the topic is okay but the thread is frustrating and not very good.
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Apr 9, 2021 22:11
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Cuomo, isn't even a Democrat at this point. Democrats or specifically "Progressive Democrats" have been trying to get rid of him for over a decade now and finally it might work this time. He's not only toxic to the party but terrible with nearly everything that he does unless it somehow enormously benefits him and voters are starting to see that clearly. Nah dude he’s still a Democrat you don’t just get to wash your hands of him because he’s inconvenient for you.
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Apr 9, 2021 23:52
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John_A_Tallon posted:I do like how you've gone out of your way to conflate the issue. Surely we can have a party free of rapists, molesters, abusers, sexual predators, and creeps without giving up on electricity, modern medicine, or buildings. No, I've made an apt analogy. There's difference what could happen as opposed to what's realistic and you don't like it.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:08
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I guess one could make the argument that it is worth shutting down the State of New York in order to ensure one individual is punished, but that seems like collective punishment for the tens of millions of citizens of the State of New York who didn't have anything to do with the harassment and would have their lives severely disrupted.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:33
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And doing so in the middle of a pandemic. And who's say Cuomo would even leave?
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Apr 10, 2021 00:36
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cuomo is a democrat, his policy positions are mainstream among what democratic politicians and their controlling donors actually support, the democrats do not actually care about removing people with credible harassment or rape allegations from office, and cuomo will not be removed from office
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Apr 10, 2021 00:37
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How are u posted:I guess one could make the argument that it is worth shutting down the State of New York in order to ensure one individual is punished, but that seems like collective punishment for the tens of millions of citizens of the State of New York who didn't have anything to do with the harassment and would have their lives severely disrupted. Surely the fault here would be on the sexual harasser who would rather let the government grind to a halt than do the right thing and resign...no? Or...no.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:45
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VitalSigns posted:Surely the fault here would be on the sexual harasser who would rather let the government grind to a halt than do the right thing and resign...no? Absolutely it would.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:49
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, I've made an apt analogy. There's difference what could happen as opposed to what's realistic and you don't like it. It was a tenuous analogy right up until you started directly conflating the (doom and gloom Republican talking point) outcomes of achieving climate change goals with the goal of not having an intern-fondling molester creep like Cuomo as governor of a major population. Then it was muddying the waters. I hope this helps you in your life journey. Crosby B. Alfred posted:And doing so in the middle of a pandemic. And who's say Cuomo would even leave? Unless a politician is prepared to use their power, they're simply playing it up for the mob. A politician's primary power is negotiating with their voting power, and that includes withholding votes on all issues until the resolution of an issue which is a key indicator of what they actually hold to be valuable. If they are not using that power, they're paying an ideal lip service at best. Every single politician that demanded Cuomo resign and then failed to make a point of not cooperating with the party that embraced Cuomo has actively done damage to the idea of the Democrats being a party that doesn't tolerate bad behavior within their ranks. Not that it was a very established idea to begin with, but they seem to like talking up the idea. If someone says, "this is intolerable!" and then goes on to tolerate it, what's that say about them? And if someone says, "the circumstances merit it being tolerated!" that's even worse. That game will always result in the circumstances always meriting doing whatever is politically convenient.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:53
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John_A_Tallon posted:It was a tenuous analogy right up until you started directly conflating the (doom and gloom Republican talking point) outcomes of achieving climate change goals with the goal of not having an intern-fondling molester creep like Cuomo as governor of a major population. Then it was muddying the waters. I hope this helps you in your life journey. There is a difference between what is possible and what is actually within the realm of being feasible. It is literally impossible to hit 1.3C unless you can someone persuade or force everyone on the planet to stop using fossil fuels right with in the next few years nor is this a Republican Talking Point but a matter of fact. John_A_Tallon posted:Unless a politician is prepared to use their power, they're simply playing it up for the mob. A politician's primary power is negotiating with their voting power, and that includes withholding votes on all issues until the resolution of an issue which is a key indicator of what they actually hold to be valuable. If they are not using that power, they're paying an ideal lip service at best. Well, if they go through the procedures to begin a formal investigation I think it says a lot.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:23
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:There is a difference between what is possible and what is actually within the realm of being feasible. It is literally impossible to hit 1.3C unless you can someone persuade or force everyone on the planet to stop using fossil fuels right with in the next few years nor is this a Republican Talking Point but a matter of fact. If there's some climate change D&D thread your concerns would be best shared there. I will not further address your continued digressions into a topic totally unrelated to this thread's topic. I will say that you are comparing problems with an order of magnitude of difference in difficulty in the first place. That is why the analogy is "tenuous" instead of "apt." Climate change is a problem a century in the making, with millions of different stakeholders, and cross-polity enforcement of whatever solution is chosen. Cuomo is a single man, and the Democrats as a whole are a political party of thousands of politicians spread out over the 50 states. Demanding action from a few hundred people to force a single man to do something is very much different from tackling the climate change issue, and it is fundamentally disingenuous to imply otherwise as you have done. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Well, if they go through the procedures to begin a formal investigation I think it says a lot. If they demanded a resignation and settled for a formal investigation, it says they were demanding the resignation for show.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:39
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John_A_Tallon posted:If there's some climate change D&D thread your concerns would be best shared there. I will not further address your continued digressions into a topic totally unrelated to this thread's topic. I will say that you are comparing problems with an order of magnitude of difference in difficulty in the first place. That is why the analogy is "tenuous" instead of "apt." Climate change is a problem a century in the making, with millions of different stakeholders, and cross-polity enforcement of whatever solution is chosen. It's the same thing. NY State parliamentary procedure is insanely complicated and they haven't impeached a governor in over a hundred years because that's how the system was designed. Out of State Democrats aren't going to get involved with something that is purely NY State Politics nor do they have any authority in the first place. John_A_Tallon posted:If they demanded a resignation and settled for a formal investigation, it says they were demanding the resignation for show. They're still demanding his resignation but they do not have a legal mechanism to simply remove him at all will.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:45
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don't they have an obvious legal mechanism to remove him and it's called impeachment it's actually not complicated at all whatsoever and is straightforward and simple. the nursing home debacle should certainly by itself be considered a high crime https://www.nytimes.com/article/cuomo-impeachment.html quote:The initial step could involve an accusation of “high crimes and misdemeanors,” a constitutional phrase that was included in a recent resolution offered up by the Assembly’s long-suffering Republicans. The resolution also touched on the governor’s verbal attack on Assemblyman Ron Kim, a progressive Democrat who probably has very little in common with most of the Republican delegation. comedyblissoption fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 01:46
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:It's the same thing. NY State parliamentary procedure is insanely complicated and they haven't impeached a governor in over a hundred years because that's how the system was designed. Out of State Democrats aren't going to get involved with something that is purely NY State Politics nor do they have any authority in the first place. Legal mechanisms become academic if an effective method of wielding power is chosen. The point of withholding votes and shutting the system down would be to force Cuomo to leave "of his own accord." If they had not called for his resignation but simply said, "there should be an investigation," then there'd be no inconsistency in their actions. But they didn't; they went for the dramatic action of demanding a resignation and then took the lamest option of sitting on their hands instead of exercising their actual power.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:49
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comedyblissoption posted:don't they have an obvious legal mechanism to remove him and it's called impeachment Right and while progressive might want him gone they simply don't have the votes to make it happen if an investigation pans out... maybe they will.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:49
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John_A_Tallon posted:Legal mechanisms become academic if an effective method of wielding power is chosen. The point of withholding votes and shutting the system down would be to force Cuomo to leave "of his own accord." If they had not called for his resignation but simply said, "there should be an investigation," then there'd be no inconsistency in their actions. But they didn't; they went for the dramatic action of demanding a resignation and then took the lamest option of sitting on their hands instead of exercising their actual power. They asked for his resignation in a group and blasted it all over the news to see if he'd just leave to save everyone the time of having to actually waste time trying to impeach such a worthless politician along with see if anything else would shake out. It didn't happen so now an investigation is occurring.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:52
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Right and while progressive might want him gone they simply don't have the votes to make it happen if an investigation pans out... maybe they will.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:52
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, I've made an apt analogy. There's difference what could happen as opposed to what's realistic and you don't like it. It’s an incredibly weak analogy, for the reasons John A Tallon posted. It’s an astoundingly bad analogy, the more I think about it, the worse it gets.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:55
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idk what the makeup is of the NY senate, but if you added all the republicans and "progressives" and "please resign cuomo" politicians together it might add up to enough to remove cuomo from office which means the democratic party would want to avoid the entire debacle altogether
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Apr 10, 2021 01:57
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comedyblissoption posted:idk what the makeup is of the NY senate, but if you added all the republicans and "progressives" and "please resign cuomo" politicians together it might add up to enough to remove cuomo from office which means the democratic party would want to avoid the entire debacle altogether That'd be some interesting math... but I'd support it.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:58
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the ny state senate is 20 republicans + 43 democrats if you assume all republicans will remove cuomo from office, you would need to peel 22 out of 43 democrats (51%) to remove him from office https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Senate
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Apr 10, 2021 02:00
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Right and while progressive might want him gone they simply don't have the votes to make it happen if an investigation pans out... maybe they will. Wait how can you believe both (1) Democrats do not tolerate sexual harassment in their ranks, and (2) there aren't enough Democratic votes to remove one from office The Republicans will obviously all cynically vote for it so if he doesn't get impeached or removed it's because Democrats protected him
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Apr 10, 2021 12:40
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I don't know what you mean exactly. You might believe the investigation, press conferences, etc. is a bunch of smoke and mirrors but I do not. And I haven't seen any arguments that are persuasive.
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Apr 10, 2021 14:41
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I believe women when they come forward at great personal risk with their stories of workplace harassment and abuse, so yes I do think the "investigations" are smoke and mirrors, or more accurately, a way to kick the can down the road until enough people have forgotten or forgiven. Are you expecting the investigation will find evidence that all these women are lying?
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Apr 10, 2021 16:24
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No, I expect to give more details to further persuade folks that Cuomo is a garbage piece of poo poo and confirm earlier accusations giving NY State politicians the political capital they need to remove him from office. Additionally, there will likely be changes to how the governor's office is operated to prevent this from happening in the future as well.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:33
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If you're not convinced after 10+ accusers, I truly don't think an investigation is going to change that. "Political capital" doesn't exist except as an excuse for why politicians can't do good things, but even if it did, NY Dems should spend some of it to remove this toxic shithead from office ASAP, if they want to have any principles at all.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:45
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e: misread
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Apr 10, 2021 16:46
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comedyblissoption posted:the ny state senate is 20 republicans + 43 democrats The NY Republicans are on board with impeaching him for just the nursing home stuff so they would definitely be on board with impeaching him for whatever else. Lester Shy posted:I believe women when they come forward at great personal risk with their stories of workplace harassment and abuse, so yes I do think the "investigations" are smoke and mirrors, or more accurately, a way to kick the can down the road until enough people have forgotten or forgiven. Are you expecting the investigation will find evidence that all these women are lying? I guess it's worth noting that there are actually three investigations: - NY legislature, which is looking into both nursing home stuff and sexual harassment as an impeachment inquiry - Attorney General, who is looking into the sexual harassment (this was the investigation that Cuomo was originally trying to set up to be run by his cronies). This investigation has subpoena power and all that. - FBI (looking into what crimes may have been committed in relation to nursing home scandal) I'm not prepared to say what I think is going to happen as a result. On the one hand Cuomo could just hang on due to inertia and machine politics, on the other hand any one of these investigations may increase the seriousness of the other two with its findings. There's currently no political will to get Cuomo out of office immediately, but the goalpost on this thread for a long time was not enough Democrats calling on Cuomo to resign, and now it's "they haven't forced him to resign by now so they just don't care." That doesn't match up with the facts. Meanwhile, the last governor to get impeached was a guy in like 1914 as part of a Tammany Hall hit job when he wouldn't play ball with their brand of corruption.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:47
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Lester Shy posted:If you're not convinced after 10+ accusers, I truly don't think an investigation is going to change that. There are dozens and dozens of political scandals where outcome out investigations has significantly changed public opinion. Folks are starting believe Eric Greitens is literally the victim of a woke liberal mob but all he did was manage to spin a investigation but he's really just a lovely racist rapist authoritarian politician. Another way of looking at is if NY State Democrats decide not to impeach him or they don't vote for it that puts up their seat to be primaried - which I fully support. And remember, the vast majority of folks simply aren't political and are extremely skeptical of everything but they still need to be persuaded. Lester Shy posted:"Political capital" doesn't exist except as an excuse for why politicians can't do good things, but even if it did, NY Dems should spend some of it to remove this toxic shithead from office ASAP, if they want to have any principles at all. Politicians need to be able to have their voters believe that they're doing a good job. Going back to the earlier example of Franken I'm strongly against the initial demands of removal without any investigation whatsoever especially given the odd circumstances where the sexual harassment accusations initially came out on a late night right wing talk show. Yea, they did turn out to be true and he resigned but I someone who wants verify these sorts of claims and ensure that they are accurate.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:59
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Sodomy Hussein posted:
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Apr 10, 2021 16:59
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gently caress, we lost sight of Highschool Debate Regulation 4.22 Subsection B. I guess we have no choice but to let the rapists get away with a slap on the wrist. Next time though, there will be no mercy. We will form a committee to consider creating a subcommittee to begin research into going through the procedures to begin a formal investigation into that posthaste (once the polling confirms that 50% plus 1 of democrats have a negative opinion of the perpetrator).
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Apr 10, 2021 17:06
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Sodomy Hussein posted:the goalpost on this thread for a long time was not enough Democrats calling on Cuomo to resign, and now it's "they haven't forced him to resign by now so they just don't care." That doesn't match up with the facts. A call to resign is predicated on the belief that it will have the intended effect, no? If you demand Cuomo's resignation and he refuses, I think it's fair to expect you to exercise your power and take steps toward impeachment. You demanded the resignation before any investigation; there's no reason the investigation would change your impression of the situation unless you believe there's a chance that all of these women are lying. I can't speak for the rest of the thread, but my position from the beginning has been that Cuomo should be removed ASAP. I don't care that it's unprecedented. If Dems want to be a party that values and believes women, they should be willing to take unprecedented steps to remove abusers from office.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:49
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Lester Shy posted:A call to resign is predicated on the belief that it will have the intended effect, no? If you demand Cuomo's resignation and he refuses, I think it's fair to expect you to exercise your power and take steps toward impeachment. You demanded the resignation before any investigation; there's no reason the investigation would change your impression of the situation unless you believe there's a chance that all of these women are lying. I can't speak for the rest of the thread, but my position from the beginning has been that Cuomo should be removed ASAP. I don't care that it's unprecedented. If Dems want to be a party that values and believes women, they should be willing to take unprecedented steps to remove abusers from office. Investigations are also a political tool to sway public opinion, create more solid foundations for action, and shed more details on what actually happened. And again you are asking for Democrats to leverage mechanisms that don't exist, causing all manner of political and civil collateral damage, simply because Democrats are not acting quickly enough by your completely arbitrary standard to replace Cuomo with one of his lieutenants.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:22
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Investigations are also a political tool to sway public opinion, create more solid foundations for action, and shed more details on what actually happened. And again you are asking for Democrats to leverage mechanisms that don't exist, causing all manner of political and civil collateral damage, simply because Democrats are not acting quickly enough by your completely arbitrary standard to replace Cuomo with one of his lieutenants. This is an argument for inaction in all cases because doing anything might rock the boat. Trump's impeachment caused all manner of political and civil collateral damage because it delayed COVID relief by several weeks, and yet Democrats pursued it anyway, despite the fact that they knew what the outcome would be from the beginning. NY Dems have to stand up on principle at some point. Otherwise Cuomo's just going to skate, like Northam did, like Biden did, like Trump did.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:32
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Lester Shy posted:This is an argument for inaction in all cases because doing anything might rock the boat. Trump's impeachment caused all manner of political and civil collateral damage because it delayed COVID relief by several weeks, and yet Democrats pursued it anyway, despite the fact that they knew what the outcome would be from the beginning. NY Dems have to stand up on principle at some point. Otherwise Cuomo's just going to skate, like Northam did, like Biden did, like Trump did. It did not delay the covid bill at all.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:34
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Lester Shy posted:This is an argument for inaction in all cases because doing anything might rock the boat. Trump's impeachment caused all manner of political and civil collateral damage because it delayed COVID relief by several weeks, and yet Democrats pursued it anyway, despite the fact that they knew what the outcome would be from the beginning. NY Dems have to stand up on principle at some point. Otherwise Cuomo's just going to skate, like Northam did, like Biden did, like Trump did. Simultaneously blaming Democrats for taking a principled stand against Trump and letting him skate at the same time, using reasoning that in both cases is not true, nice.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:40
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Lester Shy posted:This is an argument for inaction in all cases because doing anything might rock the boat. Trump's impeachment caused all manner of political and civil collateral damage because it delayed COVID relief by several weeks, and yet Democrats pursued it anyway, despite the fact that they knew what the outcome would be from the beginning. NY Dems have to stand up on principle at some point. Otherwise Cuomo's just going to skate, like Northam did, like Biden did, like Trump did. Northam didn't skate. He literally went in front of his minority constitutes and cried his loving eyes out that decades ago "Yes, he was a dumb piece of poo poo in a completely different era but he's super unbelievably sorry." and they decided to accept his apology along with making amends. Your line of reasoning is good example of the Nirvana or Perfection Fallacy. We have terrible politicians in office that are being investigated for crimes and yes the perfect thing would be to remove them immediate but that isn't realistic. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 18:45
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Simultaneously blaming Democrats for taking a principled stand against Trump and letting him skate at the same time, using reasoning that in both cases is not true, nice. That's not what I meant, but I could have been more clear. Northam skated on blackface. Biden skated on the rape of Tara Reade. Trump skated on too many things to count, from his dozens of accusers to the Access Hollywood tape to inciting 1/6. In all of these cases, a rebuke from each man's own party could have solved the problem instead of letting it fester. In each of these cases, the party chose to do nothing for cynical reasons. That's fine, it's what I've come to expect. But I don't buy the argument that the cynical, pragmatic approach is also the moral one.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:51
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