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Lester Shy posted:That's not what I meant, but I could have been more clear. Northam skated on blackface. Biden skated on the rape of Tara Reade. Trump skated on too many things to count, from his dozens of accusers to the Access Hollywood tape to inciting 1/6. In all of these cases, a rebuke from each man's own party could have solved the problem instead of letting it fester. In each of these cases, the party chose to do nothing for cynical reasons. That's fine, it's what I've come to expect. But I don't buy the argument that the cynical, pragmatic approach is also the moral one. Wrong. See my earlier post.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:53
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That's fine. Northam is obviously a different case because unlike Biden, Cuomo or Trump, it's just a photo, there's nothing illegal about blackface and there are no people alleging actual physical harm or abuse. I'd say that getting to remain governor in that situation counts as skating, but I'm not gonna argue the point.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:00
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Lester Shy posted:That's not what I meant, but I could have been more clear. Northam skated on blackface. Biden skated on the rape of Tara Reade. Trump skated on too many things to count, from his dozens of accusers to the Access Hollywood tape to inciting 1/6. In all of these cases, a rebuke from each man's own party could have solved the problem instead of letting it fester. In each of these cases, the party chose to do nothing for cynical reasons. That's fine, it's what I've come to expect. But I don't buy the argument that the cynical, pragmatic approach is also the moral one. It may be pragmatic, but it isn't cynical; the cynical approach is on display throughout this thread.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:02
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Lester Shy posted:That's fine. Northam is obviously a different case because unlike Biden, Cuomo or Trump, it's just a photo, there's nothing illegal about blackface and there are no people alleging actual physical harm or abuse. I'd say that getting to remain governor in that situation counts as skating, but I'm not gonna argue the point. Maybe to you but no one else would define it as such because he nearly lost his entire career, profusely apologized and made amends by doing a ton of work to help minority rights in Virginia.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:04
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Sodomy Hussein posted:It may be pragmatic, but it isn't cynical; the cynical approach is on display throughout this thread. What do you mean by this? Crosby B. Alfred posted:Maybe to you but no one else would define it as such because he nearly lost his entire career, profusely apologized and made amends by doing a ton of work to help minority rights in Virginia. Well, "nearly" is the point. He didn't lose his job. Basically anybody in any "normal" public-facing job would be fired for photos of that nature, regardless of their apologies.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:09
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Politicians need to be able to have their voters believe that they're doing a good job. Going back to the earlier example of Franken I'm strongly against the initial demands of removal without any investigation whatsoever   *Furrowed brow, blowing bubbles from a mahogany pipe* "By Jove, Watson, this case is an inscrutable mystery wrapped in an enigma locked in a riddle buried deep in Terra Incognita!! We may never know what the grinning man's hands are doing on the chest of a woman who complained he sexually assaulted her! Is it some sort of esoteric religious rite, or mind control, or a runaway clone created by that mad genius Doctor Moriarty? Summon the Baker Street Boys for the investigative endeavor of a lifetime!"
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Apr 10, 2021 19:13
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VitalSigns posted:
And? The pictures didn't come out initially. Everything came out on right wing radio - that should generate skepticism.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:17
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Lester Shy posted:Well, "nearly" is the point. He didn't lose his job. Basically anybody in any "normal" public-facing job would be fired for photos of that nature, regardless of their apologies. Maybe. Maybe not but based of off the outcome of Northam's actions I would say that it looks like forgiveness worked out and I wasn't born in 1960 either.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:18
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So uhhh was it wrong to call for Trump to drop out after the access hollywood tape and a dozen accusers, there was no formal investigation, so no doubt you're just as incensed that the RADICAL LEFT DEMOCRATS didn't afford him the presumption of innocence on this, yes?
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Apr 10, 2021 19:19
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:And? The pictures didn't come out initially. Everything came out on right wing radio - that should generate skepticism. Incorrect, Tweeden shared the picture the same day as her initial accusation https://www.twincities.com/2017/12/07/al-franken-sexual-misconduct-allegations-timeline-senator-minnesota/
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Apr 10, 2021 19:21
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VitalSigns posted:So uhhh was it wrong to call for Trump to drop out after the access hollywood tape and a dozen accusers, there was no formal investigation, No, it was the correct call. VitalSigns posted:so no doubt you're just as incensed that the RADICAL LEFT DEMOCRATS didn't afford him the presumption of innocence on this, yes? No, there's no investigation needed here. He's a political candidate not a member of office.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:34
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VitalSigns posted:Incorrect, Tweeden shared the picture the same day as her initial accusation That's interesting and I wasn't aware of that... I'll have think about it a bit more.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:35
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:And? The pictures didn't come out initially. Everything came out on right wing radio - that should generate skepticism. You loving monster piece of poo poo. You are evil.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:45
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Verus posted:You loving monster piece of poo poo. You are evil. I don't think you understand my position nor am I alone in this line of thinking. I prefer justice that is orderly, not mob rule.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:50
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You just enjoy licking the boots of your masters while they commit atrocity after atrocity. Rich people will never face justice because of people like you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 10, 2021 19:52
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I have an honest question for anyone reading this thread who has some amount of faith in the Cuomo committee-to-consider-impeachment process. Let's say they met tomorrow, and after a few days or weeks of investigation released a statement that said, effectively: "Our investigation revealed that Governor Cuomo may have behaved inappropriately towards some or all of his accusers, but we did not find sufficient evidence for us to call to begin the impeachment process. Nevertheless this committee condemns his actions and recommends strongly against Mr. Cuomo running for office again." Would that make you vote for a republican, or abstain from voting in a scenario where a republican could reasonably win -- even if said Democrat voiced an opinion in defense of Andrew Cuomo?
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Apr 10, 2021 19:52
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I would want to know why they came to that outcome and my initial reaction would be fund someone to primary whoever is still supporting Cuomo.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:57
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I don't think you understand my position nor am I alone in this line of thinking. I prefer justice that is orderly, not mob rule. How is demanding that a governor resign after abusing the power of his office to sexually harass and intimidate subordinates "mob rule"? How is it "just and orderly" for him to continue in power where he can abuse more women? Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, it was the correct call. How does this make sense. Why is sometime unqualified to remain as a candidate qualified to remain in power? Shouldn't it be the same standard, or even the reverse? It's obviously worse if a powerful man wants to abuse women because unlike a private citizen merely running for office, a president or governor can wield state power against his victims!
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Apr 10, 2021 20:40
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:And? The pictures didn't come out initially. Everything came out on right wing radio - that should generate skepticism. If you haven't noticed yet all the bad news about the democrats is going to hit right wing news first. MSNBC and CNN have it down pat now: Step 1: slow roll bad news about democrats Step 2: wait until right wing media covers the story Step 3: cover the story but cite the its appearance on right wing media first as reason to doubt it's veracity Step 4: democrat partisans disbelieve the story because it was on right wing media first Step 5: rinse Step 6: repeat If you aren't going to believe a democrat can do something bad just because it was on some form of right wing media first you might as well declare that democrats are perfect angels right now because their media apparatus has its viewers figured out and they'll keep doing the same thing because their viewership actively avoids wising up.
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Apr 10, 2021 20:44
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VitalSigns posted:How is demanding that a governor resign after abusing the power of his office to sexually harass and intimidate subordinates "mob rule"? I don't understand what you are trying to argue here? BitcoinRockefeller posted:If you haven't noticed yet all the bad news about the democrats is going to hit right wing news first. MSNBC and CNN have it down pat now: I don't watch typical television media so I have no comment on that issue. As far as I am concerned mass media doesn't have a left or right bias but corporate and sensational. And you aren't reading what I've stated which was skepticism. Democrats aren't perfect angels but I sure as hell would want verify claims from right wing media figures and I don't think that's a stretch either.
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Apr 10, 2021 20:53
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I don't understand what you are trying to argue here? I am asking you why you think calling for a governor's resignation after he harasses 10 women is "mob rule" I'm also asking why you think calling for Trump's resignation without an investigation is somehow different.
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Apr 10, 2021 20:59
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VitalSigns posted:I'm also asking why you think calling for Trump's resignation without an investigation is somehow different. I already addressed this. Trump was a political candidate not a sitting senator. Franken did not have a history of inappropriate conduct. Trump did. The accusations against Franken initially came out on right wing radio hence skepticism is warranted. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 21:04
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Maybe. Maybe not but based of off the outcome of Northam's actions I would say that it looks like forgiveness worked out and I wasn't born in 1960 either. We have so many people who could be politicians that we do not need to tolerate disgusting people in office. Any public office should be a position that is filled by men and women who are not going to abuse other people. Forgiveness is well and good, but that's a matter between the victim and the abuser; the public cannot afford to tolerate bad behavior by public officials at all. A politician acting badly should be removed and replaced with someone who is not an abuser, a molester, a rapist, a corrupt person, a patronage advocate/beneficiary, or anything else questionable. Likewise, a party found to be tolerating bad behaviors, to running interference for bad actors, or outright indulging collectively in bad behavior should be replaced en toto. John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 21:07
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John_A_Tallon posted:We have so many people who could be politicians that we do not need to tolerate disgusting people in office. Any public office should be a position that is filled by men and women who are not going to abuse other people. Forgiveness is well and good, but that's a matter between the victim and the abuser; the public cannot afford to tolerate bad behavior by public officials at all. A politician acting badly should be removed and replaced with someone who is not an abuser, a molester, a rapist, a corrupt person, a patronage advocate/beneficiary, or anything else questionable. Likewise, a party found to be tolerating bad behaviors, to running interference for bad actors, or outright indulging collectively in bad behavior should be replaced en toto. Agreed and the voters in Virginia decided to forgive Northam. Case closed.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:09
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I don't think you understand my position nor am I alone in this line of thinking. I prefer justice that is orderly, not mob rule. Justice which lines up with your sensibilities has been shown, through the simple emergence of the MeToo movement itself, to be no justice at all. The slow moving process is often used to buy time for hatchet men to dig up anything they can find as a bludgeon to discredit the victim; one need only study Tara Reade's case to see how that played out. Further, political bodies can eject members without a full and lengthy process modeled on the adversarial legal system we have had inflicted on us as a people. They do not need to even meet the standards that a civil jury need meet to come to a decision. They largely make their own rules, and it is right to demand that they hold themselves to the highest of standards in conduct because the stakes for the government are high, and the stakes for the individual politician being ejected from the government are low.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:15
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I already addressed this. Trump was a political candidate not a sitting senator. Franken did not have a history of inappropriate conduct. Trump did. The accusations against Franken initially came out on right wing radio hence skepticism is warranted. Cuomo has a history of harassing women. Ten women accused him and his staff leaked to the press that he ordered them to intimidate an accuser. Why do we have to "investigate" him to make sure all those women and his own staff aren't lying, but we can know Trump did it without any investigation at all? Is it the letter by their name or what's different
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Apr 10, 2021 21:22
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Agreed and the voters in Virginia decided to forgive Northam. Case closed. Voters weren't the victims there though. A subset of voters, specifically persons of color, were the victims. And the crux of my point was that Virginia could do much, much, better. Individuals hurt by Northam could forgive him being an old racist or not, but the questionable background should have been immediately disqualifying because there are thousands of people in Virginia who could do just as good a job as governor without the baggage of being a disgusting person in medical school.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:28
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Christ I missed the fact that he's an MD. Sure hope his black patients got the same quality of care as his white patients!
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Apr 10, 2021 21:31
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Lester Shy posted:Christ I missed the fact that he's an MD. Sure hope his black patients got the same quality of care as his white patients! He was an Army officer too.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:32
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John_A_Tallon posted:Justice which lines up with your sensibilities has been shown, through the simple emergence of the MeToo movement itself, to be no justice at all. Disagree, I think the #metoo movement is great and commendable. It means that we should listen to women no longer dismiss claims of sexual harassment as "boys will be boys" or whatever lovely excuses no matter how common they are even in the the present day. John_A_Tallon posted:The slow moving process is often used to buy time for hatchet men to dig up anything they can find as a bludgeon to discredit the victim; one need only study Tara Reade's case to see how that played out. Further, political bodies can eject members without a full and lengthy process modeled on the adversarial legal system we have had inflicted on us as a people. They do not need to even meet the standards that a civil jury need meet to come to a decision. They largely make their own rules, and it is right to demand that they hold themselves to the highest of standards in conduct because the stakes for the government are high, and the stakes for the individual politician being ejected from the government are low. It's true that many nefarious individuals throw sand into the gears of investigative processes to purposefully distract the public. We are in agreement on this! John_A_Tallon posted:Further, political bodies can eject members without a full and lengthy process modeled on the adversarial legal system we have had inflicted on us as a people. They do not need to even meet the standards that a civil jury need meet to come to a decision. They largely make their own rules, and it is right to demand that they hold themselves to the highest of standards in conduct because the stakes for the government are high, and the stakes for the individual politician being ejected from the government are low. You are correct that they don't need to meet legal standards but there will be still be some kind of standard nor am I asking for the same standard that we see in typical courtroom. Maybe the situation with Cuomo could move faster but I haven't see anything persuasive arguments presented that it's somehow being purposefully slowed down by the larger Democratic Party itself.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:34
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VitalSigns posted:Why is it different if he's a candidate? Because removing a sitting politician is a big deal because they are operating an entire government. VitalSigns posted:How can someone be unqualified to be a candidate for office yet be qualified to hold the office? So after Trump got elected, it was wrong to say he should resign for sexual harassment and assault because he was an officeholder and no longer a candidate? Trump should have never, ever have been nominated in the first place let alone voted into office. John_A_Tallon posted:Voters weren't the victims there though. A subset of voters, specifically persons of color, were the victims. And the crux of my point was that Virginia could do much, much, better. Individuals hurt by Northam could forgive him being an old racist or not, but the questionable background should have been immediately disqualifying because there are thousands of people in Virginia who could do just as good a job as governor without the baggage of being a disgusting person in medical school. You contradicted yourself here. The voters of Virginia decided there wasn't a need to do better than Northam because they believed his apology, he made amends and there wasn't a need to remove him from office. Him admitting a mistake and showing people that he can grow out of it is kind of awesome in my opinion and the kind of politicians we need in office. John_A_Tallon posted:Cuomo has a history of harassing women. Ten women accused him and his staff leaked to the press that he ordered them to intimidate an accuser. Why do we have to "investigate" him to make sure all those women and his own staff aren't lying, but we can know Trump did it without any investigation at all? It's not about lying per say it's about getting all the details down so they once the investigation is over there's zero chance he'll be able to bullshit his way out of it along with potential criminal charges. Those who've been carry his water for years will be finally forced to reckon with their terrible past decisions and potentially get primaried out of office.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:43
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Disagree, I think the #metoo movement is great and commendable. It means that we should listen to women no longer dismiss claims of sexual harassment as "boys will be boys" or whatever lovely excuses no matter how common they are even in the the present day. The standard I am asking for is "no lovely people in office." When there's photographic evidence of someone being abusive toward other people, be it specific people or groups of people, that should be enough. When there's multiple people coming forward with stories about bad behavior, at risk to themselves and their career prospects, that should also be enough. There shouldn't be time for any sort of defense or attack to be mounted by the abusers. They should simply be fired, and replaced with someone who isn't controversial. Ideally we'd have a government of politicians of the same moral caliber as Fred Rogers displayed throughout his life.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:44
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John_A_Tallon posted:The standard I am asking for is "no lovely people in office." And what happens when people don't believe or dispute the evidence? John_A_Tallon posted:Ideally we'd have a government of politicians of the same moral caliber as Fred Rogers displayed throughout his life. Another Perfection Fallacy. And Fred Rogers would never, ever even be a politician.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:47
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:And what happens when people don't believe or dispute the evidence? I feel like this whole line of argument assumes that people deserve their jobs as elected officials. They don’t. Now, to a point their electorate deserves to have them, having elected them, but even then if you can’t avoid a controversy you shouldn’t hold an office. There are thousands of other people who could do as bad a job as whoever is being accused.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:54
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Bel Shazar posted:I feel like this whole line of argument assumes that people deserve their jobs as elected officials. They don’t. Now, to a point their electorate deserves to have them, having elected them, but even then if you can’t avoid a controversy you shouldn’t hold an office. There are thousands of other people who could do as bad a job as whoever is being accused. Think of it another way then, the electorate deserve to appropriately remove elected officials through some kind of process. The mere instance of a controversy shouldn't be the end of anyone's career.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:58
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Because removing a sitting politician is a big deal because they are operating an entire government. Removing a sitting politician isn't a big deal. It's just some guy getting fired. People get fired all the time. That's why so many states are Right To Work. I also guarantee you that if removing sitting politicians were more common the parties would take measures to ensure continuity of government above and beyond the measures they already have (probably shadow government procedures where a successor is pre-selected and shadows the current office holder all the time, much like how a lieutenant governor can step in for a fired governor). Crosby B. Alfred posted:You contradicted yourself here. The voters of Virginia decided there wasn't a need to do better than Northam because they believed his apology, he made amends and there wasn't a need to remove him from office. Him admitting a mistake and showing people that he can grow out of it is kind of awesome in my opinion and the kind of politicians we need in office. The voters of Virginia are predominantly white people. 68.6% white people in 2010, in fact. If a majority of black voters in Virginia voted to keep a man that mocked their skin color, their struggles against a group of domestic terrorists, and who openly embraced being a racist himself while he was training to be a doctor, then you'd have a point. But you don't. You're muddying the waters again, because you insist on being rude for the sake of being "right." Stop that. Crosby B. Alfred posted:It's not about lying per say it's about getting all the details down so they once the investigation is over there's zero chance he'll be able to bullshit his way out of it along with potential criminal charges. Those who've been carry his water for years will be finally forced to reckon with their terrible past decisions and potentially get primaried out of office. Criminal charges almost never result from "he said she said" situations. Criminal charges require a much higher standard of evidence. Criminal charges should not be considered by the political body at all in how it maintains the moral standards of its members. In practice the people associated with disgusting politicians almost never get removed until they do something more than running interference and delaying. There's no benefit to the public, nor the body politic, in delaying. Crosby B. Alfred posted:And what happens when people don't believe or dispute the evidence? If we don't demand it, we have no chance of getting it. I'm demanding it. Crosby B. Alfred posted:The mere instance of a controversy shouldn't be the end of anyone's career. Why? John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 21:59
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The voters of Virginia decided there wasn't a need to do better than Northam because they believed his apology, he made amends and there wasn't a need to remove him from office. Northam was elected in 2017, the blackface photos came to light in 2019. The voters have had no say in his fate since then, and he's uneligible for reelection.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:03
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Think of it another way then, the electorate deserve to appropriately remove elected officials through some kind of process. The mere instance of a controversy shouldn't be the end of anyone's career. Mmmm, no the process is there to give us a way to remove them without violence. I don't think it gets to pull double duty. And any other line of work, I would agree with you. Public office? GTFO.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:22
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Because removing a sitting politician is a big deal because they are operating an entire government. Harassing women and abusing the office to intimidate victims is a much bigger deal than letting the lieutenant governor take over, how can you say otherwise. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Trump should have never, ever have been nominated in the first place let alone voted into office.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:27
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:You contradicted yourself here. The voters of Virginia decided there wasn't a need to do better than Northam because they believed his apology, he made amends and there wasn't a need to remove him from office. Him admitting a mistake and showing people that he can grow out of it is kind of awesome in my opinion and the kind of politicians we need in office. As a reminder, Northam's scandal involved being captioned by name in an 80s photo with a blackface student next to a KKK hooded student in which the identities are ambiguous.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:46
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