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I've done some playing around in sandbox mode, but does sandbox just not let you get henchmen?
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Apr 10, 2021 18:32
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| # ? May 28, 2024 19:54 |
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Section Z posted:Is there anything you can do captured agents except "Kill them for intel(or kill them and not get intel), or keep trying to stuff them back into a cell when they start trying to escape every minute"? Brainwash. It seems like the higher their level, the better minion they will turn into. That might be worth testing. Also different types of agents become different minions. Soldiers become muscle for sure, haven’t tested the others since I need intel so drat bad.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:45
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Investigators become workers, Soldiers become guards, Saboteurs being technicians and Rogues become valets. I don't know if they're reliably the bottom-rank minions like that or if there's a chance for, eg, a high-level soldier to become a mercenary or hitman. All the agents that come in with super-agents that I brainwash have become low-level. That said, some of the special goons that come in side stories definitely can become higher-rank minions; I got a martial artist out of a captive from those.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:49
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In my further adventures of trying to work out a way to get captured prisoners to "Just loving leave, without stopping to gather more evidence first" I discovered the game brazenly cheats in the favor of agents who are released by a power outage, when it comes to resolve damage at least.. First I tried making some test prison cells with bees directly facing them in a hallway strip. Tested with the same group of agents. Level 4 Investigators. Normally. Powering down a cell gives these agents at zero resolve, 5 (five) resolve back. And 20 Vitality. Varying (low, Zero through 13 or so on average) skill. So just releasing them won't make them go home with no evidence, even before considering if they can survive exiting through your front entrance trap maze or not. Welcome to the BEE PRISON!" Result 1: takes photo on escape while being stung by bees. gets a massive resolve refill up from 5 out of nowhere to tank the bee resolve drain. Result 2: drained to zero before photo.... gets 5 more resolve out of nowhere, takes photo of cell. Result 3: takes photo, creeps along the 1 tile wide prison strip as part of their prison cell because the game AI knows their skill is too low to disable seven bee traps in a row and is just loving taunting you now. "Okay, okay.. MAGNET LAND!" because magnets can extend their reach into other room types, and deal resolve damage. Result 1: Yanked out of prison cell. See #1 above. Result 2: Yanked out of prison cell. See #2 above. Special magnet result if you forget to turn off the capture flag: They don't get a refill, they don't take a photo, drained to zero resolve. "hell yeah so now they just go home right?"... Nope, the button is greyed out. you can't disable capture. they are put back in prison so you can't just. make them. LEAVE with no evidence. So yeah. If you put a piranha plant in front of their cells (because their zone reaches into the front tile of the prison) they get eaten no problem. But The game flagrantly cheats to keep any non-lethal means unable to send them running home with little to no evidence. Though hopefully magnet recharge time is not so long it can't be taken advantage of to shut down repeat escape attempts in itself. It feels  to be hell to be trying to stress test this kind of thing, but I know I'd be real mad to discover this in the middle of an Ivan campaign rather than Zalika's Funtime Sanbox.EDIT: The Knock Out Gas trap ranges from "A freshly escaped prisoner will tank it and walk away" to "Knock out trap killed the prisoner, sir" if it can actually manage to drain their skill and vit to zero. At least it's higher rank and lingering animation can tag multiple agents on average in a traps hallways, but yeesh. EDIT 2: I managed to use a series of fans, slippery floor, and bubble traps to blow agents out of range of the cell. They stayed at zero resolve, got the "Going home" icon, and... They still put on a disguise, stop to look for evidence in other rooms on their way out, and regenerate resolve by taking said photos.  Hopefully they fix up the game so agents always give a good intel chunk on interrogate, because as things stand prisons are a real letdown for the day to day operations. Section Z fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 19:27
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Tenebrais posted:Investigators become workers, Soldiers become guards, Saboteurs being technicians and Rogues become valets. I've seen soldiers becoming mercenaries. I assume higher level rogues could also become higher tier deception minion, while I doubt saboteurs will give you scientists/biologists/quantum chemists, and agents are basic and I think will always give workers.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:29
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Magni posted:Welp, someone already made an infinite trap loop. Famous last words. 
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Apr 10, 2021 20:51
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I ran into a bug where tourists and investigators stop entering my cover operation. I noticed it when I got a task to scare off tourists and noticed that there weren't any in the casino - they were just lounging by the dock. This is in the map where they have to enter the gondola first.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:03
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Tenebrais posted:Yeah, Symmetry's heist team are massively overtuned. I've been having no problem with any of the other super-agents - I can take down Atomic Olga's team with only a handful of deaths - but Symmetry's five goons managed to take out two henchmen and dozens of minions even without Symmetry herself in the fight (she spawned in a different vault and went down like a chump). I'm pretty sure I saw one one-shot a mercenary. I think the problem is that Vaults are a low traffic area. Your guys will just trickle in and die in the hundreds if you attack there. I've had a lot better luck just waiting until they reach a high traffic area and then attacking. It's funny removing all my defenses around my vault made my base more secure.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:42
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axelord posted:I think the problem is that Vaults are a low traffic area. Your guys will just trickle in and die in the hundreds if you attack there. I've had a lot better luck just waiting until they reach a high traffic area and then attacking. I put my vault right across the hallway from the main security room. Works great, dunno why you'd do otherwise. Same with putting your Control Room and Inner Sanctum next to each other, it's a real no-brainer.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:56
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I have the stairs down to my vault right in the middle of my main base hallway. I let Symmetry gently caress around down stairs in the vault as long as she wants, but when she comes up she is surrounded on all sides and normally can only kill maybe 5 minions.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:02
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It doesn’t matter how you engage them, the heist team soak damage for days. Case in point, I just did the finale where wave after wave of basically every enemy type comes at you, and everything was feeding in through a choke point to be instantly slaughtered at the doorway until the heist team showed up and made it significantly further than anyone before them. In the late game it doesn’t really matter because your guards/muscle type minions are all a lot stronger than they started out and it makes up the difference well enough, but they’re absolutely more tanky than any other agent type which is just odd for a team of sneaky thieves.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:25
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The Protagonist posted:Welcome to our new wave of emergency recruits! We're going to skip our normal orientation and base facilities tour, instead you're going to get right to work! This would be an amazing start to a novel/web series/TV show.
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Apr 11, 2021 01:09
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Levy to Orlando in jail, in the Wire: You wanted to be in the game? Congratulations, you’re in the game.
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Apr 11, 2021 01:16
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Section Z posted:In my further adventures of trying to work out a way to get captured prisoners to "Just loving leave, without stopping to gather more evidence first" Can you deconstruct/move a prison and release them that way?
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Apr 11, 2021 02:31
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Also, have you considered that it’s entirely logical that if you imprison an agent they’re not going to leave without evidence because you know, YOU IMPRISONED THEM? That seems like it would convince me that something is wrong and make me determined to have proof of wrongdoing or die trying. Like you say that’s flagrant cheating, to me that just looks like an intentional design choice, you imprison an agent you kill them or they leave with evidence and that seems entirely reasonable to me.
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Apr 11, 2021 02:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also, have you considered that it’s entirely logical that if you imprison an agent they’re not going to leave without evidence because you know, YOU IMPRISONED THEM? That seems like it would convince me that something is wrong and make me determined to have proof of wrongdoing or die trying. That makes sense. Getting released from a prison cell in the back room of a casino, and suddenly getting attacked by bees? Investigator thinks "What the gently caress is going on in this casino?" and gets a resolve bump in order to get that loving photograph of the prison cell from which they've just escaped.
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Apr 11, 2021 02:52
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Yeah if they make it to a cell it's into the brain wash for them or nothing
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Apr 11, 2021 02:54
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QuarkJets posted:That makes sense. Getting released from a prison cell in the back room of a casino, and suddenly getting attacked by bees? Investigator thinks "What the gently caress is going on in this casino?" and gets a resolve bump in order to get that loving photograph of the prison cell from which they've just escaped. I’m also pretty sure they get the resolve bump for finding evidence regardless, it’s just not that much usually. Which also makes sense, resolve is their conviction to complete the investigation, finding evidence obviously gives them a bigger desire to finish the mission.
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Apr 11, 2021 02:58
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Is it possible to hit John Steele with traps? I want to keep him in a lovely baby jail forever because I'm sick of incinerating his corpse, but he manages to disable all my traps even at ten skill. If not I can design a lovely baby jail around that too, but I'd rather automate it
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Apr 11, 2021 02:59
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I've never seen a trap trigger on a super agent, they always turn them off.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:06
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I figured thatd be the case for the other Super Agents but Steele sucks enough that I hoped he'd be an exception  I've also decided Agent X is the first to go because he said my apple pie was mediocre  I take apples VERY seriously
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Apr 11, 2021 03:09
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also, have you considered that it’s entirely logical that if you imprison an agent they’re not going to leave without evidence because you know, YOU IMPRISONED THEM? That seems like it would convince me that something is wrong and make me determined to have proof of wrongdoing or die trying. Honestly I'm still thinking in terms of Evil Genius 1, where one of my top ways to not cause an inevitable slaughter of the more stubborn agent squads was to round them all up for catch and release cycles. EG2 also makes a big deal about giving you non-lethal weapons, so they present it as intended to be even easier than EG1 to deal in prison antics. So if the only end result of capturing people is "And then you kill them anyways, and get either some (or none because???) intel or brainwash them into one minion to replace the stack of them you lost surrounding them with (now staff armed) martial artists and rifle armed hitmen"... Just, yeah. It doesn't feel like I'M the one being illogical here looking for something more than that. Besides, Traps A and B work perfectly on released or escaping prisoners to kill or make re-imprisoning them easy unless they are bullshit mega agents. But C giving them magical stat refills to negate being caught by a trap gets a pass because... Why, exactly? Lord_Magmar posted:I’m also pretty sure they get the resolve bump for finding evidence regardless, it’s just not that much usually. Which also makes sense, resolve is their conviction to complete the investigation, finding evidence obviously gives them a bigger desire to finish the mission. They even got resolve refills without evidence gathering too though, often much more. So it isn't "the conviction to complete the investigation" thanks to photos alone, and that still does not excuse ZERO resolve being effectively meaningless unless they got drained so early into your base they'd never have the chance to take more photos on the way back out anyways. It sure will save me a lot of trap design effort past anything camera worthy to know that now, though. I can automate shoving someone back into a cell before they take a photo with the right trap and watch combo. They only busted out the stat refill game genie when I was trying to target their resolve to make them want to go home rather than maim or murder them for stepping out of their cell. They don't get a stat refill for being stabbed in the dick by poison darts with a side of freeze ray, they don't care if they are reduced to 2 vitality and zero skill by KO gas (aside from the rare occasions it kills them). but a harmless bubble or nearly harmless magnet? oh no time for some heroic willpower I guess. Section Z fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 03:12
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Grand Fromage posted:I've never seen a trap trigger on a super agent, they always turn them off. I've managed to get them in some of the larger, higher tier traps. Sometimes it's their teammates that help to catch them, but I managed to get blue saint in a spy trap There's also clara jones' trap buff, which I used a lot.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:14
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I totally understand the issue you’re having Z but to me it seems like the answer is this is Evil Genius 2. If you capture an agent then you’ve already given them a reason to not go home empty handed, so you need a plan to kill or convert them, because imprisoning them illegally already makes them suspicious enough to need evidence to go home. I’ve seen this also happen if they see a heat generating object without taking a photo of it. It’s maybe a little weird but it certainly makes sense to me, you want someone to go home empty handed you have a casino for that, you capture someone you clearly have another interest in them besides getting them to go home. Capturing is easier (in theory) specifically so you can interrogate or convert enemies, not so you can dance them out of prison with zero resolve to discover your evil acts (because why would they go home empty handed after being captured).
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Apr 11, 2021 03:28
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Lord_Magmar posted:I totally understand the issue you’re having Z but to me it seems like the answer is this is Evil Genius 2. If you capture an agent then you’ve already given them a reason to not go home empty handed, so you need a plan to kill or convert them, because imprisoning them illegally already makes them suspicious enough to need evidence to go home.  "Are we SURE we can't get this commando squad home safely? Yes I know they flipped out and started shooting a bunk bed so hard it exploded, Shen Yu isn't a monster." It just kind of crosses that line between "The intended gameplay is kill or convert prisoners? Fair enough" once you start dealing with the elements sending incredibly mixed messages like how the Knock Out Gas is fatal and incapable of a soft takedown because ??? Sorry boss, we need to put a deadly (but not TOO deadly) trap in front of a prison cell to wear down escapees into instant surrender status because the knock out gas might loving kill them. Also no, we can't wear down their resolve faster by making them test a non-lethal zero vitality damage trap, that will kill them too. EDIT: I just noticed you can't power down an advanced guard station? This has to be a bug right? You can turn off a table. Section Z fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 03:38
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Clara Jones can boost a trap and I've seen those boosted traps hit agents. Also if a trap has enough range it can grab them, I've hit a few with magnet traps from down hallways.
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Apr 11, 2021 04:03
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You can also interrogate people with traps, and since John Steele(s) can be captured it might actually work with them too. I haven't tried though After my game-breaking bug I restarted with a new game, this time going on hard. After a small hiccup where I spent myself into being unable to start a crime network and re-restarting, I just completely ignored investigators entirely. Taking photos of my corpse-burning machines? Freaked out by my prison complex with interrogation chairs? Wondering why i have enough power plants to light up a city? No worries, carry on, Have fun! It has generally trivialized the game. The investigators come, do their thing, and leave, and nothing comes of it. I also haven't had a super agent come that wasn't a scripted event, mostly Agent X, and I've been completely ignoring heat besides making sure a scheme will complete before a lockdown. I have so much gold that I've run out of stone I can mine to replace with vaults, and I'm story locked from getting tier 4 research even though I was anticipating it. I'm just now testing the Doomsday device, grabbing every loot I can, and eventually going to go for every henchman. I've enjoyed the base building like normal but between picking IRIS for first hench and not Janet (to eventually get FMJ), ignoring agents unless required by objectives, perfect evasion of super agents, and not caring about lockdowns, this play through has been absurdly fast and easy compared to my first.
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Apr 11, 2021 04:39
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Section Z posted:Honestly I'm still thinking in terms of Evil Genius 1, where one of my top ways to not cause an inevitable slaughter of the more stubborn agent squads was to round them all up for catch and release cycles. Why would someone escaping from a secret casino prison not at the very least take a picture of the cell they were just released from?
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Apr 11, 2021 08:05
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Danaru posted:Is it possible to hit John Steele with traps? I want to keep him in a lovely baby jail forever because I'm sick of incinerating his corpse, but he manages to disable all my traps even at ten skill. i managed to do it, but its bit impractical. Basically you need constant flow of fleeing minions that will trigger traps fleeing minion triggers magnet and steele will get pulled with the minion. It also turns time saboteurs into gambling addicts. 
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Apr 11, 2021 10:04
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you can sometimes hit super agents with traps by overlapping 3+ traps that activate on the same area. turn them all off, then when the super is in the zone turn them all on. despite all the trouble i went through to dunk steele into the shark tank it didn't register the achievement, though. alternately, they are perfectly vulnerable to active traps that someone else set off including trap chains. so that infinite trap chain would eventually kill a super if you could actually manage to get them into it. turning traps on manually works quite well in general if you are inclined to micro that much. it doesn't stop agents from deactivating single traps, but if it would trigger anyway you can get a trap to hit a larger group.
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Apr 11, 2021 12:48
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oh poo poo, right. you can use traps to interrogate and that includes shark tank. wonder if that counts? shark tank is a terrible interrogation device, mind you. random workers will definitely walk through while you are using it and die.
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Apr 11, 2021 12:52
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:oh poo poo, right. you can use traps to interrogate and that includes shark tank. wonder if that counts? It does count because that’s how I got the achievement.
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Apr 11, 2021 12:57
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Only place for the shark tank is your inner sanctum 
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Apr 11, 2021 16:25
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DarkHorse posted:Only place for the shark tank is your inner sanctum Counterpoint: the best place for a shark tank is everywhere there's room, end every trap loop with a shark tank.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:54
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Pave your hallways with shark tanks. Any minions that get caught out clearly weren't hardcore enough and thus have no place in your organisation.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:01
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Tenebrais posted:Pave your hallways with shark tanks. Any minions that get caught out clearly weren't hardcore enough and thus have no place in your organisation. Darwinian selection will ensure only the best minions survive
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Apr 11, 2021 18:34
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im on a side mission for a henchman and im waiting for an art dealer to take the fake painting. but he isnt showing up. anything i can do?
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Apr 11, 2021 18:41
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QuarkJets posted:Why would someone escaping from a secret casino prison not at the very least take a picture of the cell they were just released from? Well that's part of the whole thing.They didn't even bother taking a photo 90% the time resolve drain wasn't involved, they would happily ignore it in favor of reacting to traps on their doorstep, walk into another trap, and then quietly surrendering like a little coward at the mere sight of a guard. The gameplay interaction is honest and straightforward. Or just lazily walk directly into their death before remembering to take a selfie first. But if heavy resolve drain traps were involved instead? Then it was time to super armor half the time, regen (resolve) stats all the time, hug the half tile of floorspace that makes up their cell to avoid trap zones, and not give a poo poo guards on duty were rushing them until forced into combat. (On that note, I wonder if capturing someone removes their guns?). The seemingly common sense of "Why wouldn't they take a photo?" just underlines the whole situation, basically. The same excuses for their sudden burst of superhuman capability to refill resolve would apply just as much to not wanting to die, right? I guess running a bunch of tests to watch the huge gulf in AI from the exact same prisoners in a save also had a hand in this opinion. Flip flopping between "Now even boxing glove setups will usually kill them before they remember to do their job" and "Psychic willpower regenerating super ninja hates bubbles" Section Z fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 19:32
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Are you untagging them when they escape or distract tagging them? The only thing I can think of is there being some kind of safeguard to keep an agent from hitting 0 resolve too deep into your base. Which is dumb in a game with resolve lowering traps, but maybe they planned them to be used alongside getting escorted out
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Apr 11, 2021 20:23
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Is there a limit to how many henchmen I can have? I assume 5 based on the bar.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:22
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