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John_A_Tallon posted:Removing a sitting politician isn't a big deal. It's just some guy getting fired. People get fired all the time. That's why so many states are Right To Work. I also guarantee you that if removing sitting politicians were more common the parties would take measures to ensure continuity of government above and beyond the measures they already have (probably shadow government procedures where a successor is pre-selected and shadows the current office holder all the time, much like how a lieutenant governor can step in for a fired governor). A politician isn't just some guy. It's someone who operating a literal government. I am not speaking in the context of labor rights and "Right-To-Work" is bullshit and violates labor rights. John_A_Tallon posted:The voters of Virginia are predominantly white people. 68.6% white people in 2010, in fact. There is no longer an active movement for his resignation because it appears they forgave him. John_A_Tallon posted:You're muddying the waters again, because you insist on being rude for the sake of being "right." Stop that. Sorry if you feel if I am being rude. John_A_Tallon posted:Criminal charges almost never result from "he said she said" situations. Criminal charges require a much higher standard of evidence. Criminal charges should not be considered by the political body at all in how it maintains the moral standards of its members. In practice the people associated with disgusting politicians almost never get removed until they do something more than running interference and delaying. There's no benefit to the public, nor the body politic, in delaying. What is almost never? If delaying results in a better or more just outcome then there is certainly value. Should the investigation into Cuomo go faster? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not an expert on the how NY State investigations work out. John_A_Tallon posted:If we don't demand it, we have no chance of getting it. I'm demanding it. This doesn't address my earlier question. For the second time, what do you do when people don't believe, don't find it sufficient or don't understand the evidence presented? Bel Shazar posted:Mmmm, no the process is there to give us a way to remove them without violence. I don't think it gets to pull double duty. And any other line of work, I would agree with you. Public office? GTFO. Because then you end with things with candidates like Hilary Clinton losing an election against a stupid racist clown because of things like emails. According this train of thought, Biden shouldn't be president because of his son's laptop. :jerkoff: VitalSigns posted:No it isn't. Politicians resign all the time for a whole mess of reasons, you just get another one and everything goes on as before. That's what vice presidents, lieutenant governors, appointments, etc are for. So we never have to say "gosh what will we do without a governor i guess we just have to let him rape then!" That is a part of what those things are for but it is still a big deal and not something to be taken lightly which was my point. VitalSigns posted:Harassing women and abusing the office to intimidate victims is a much bigger deal than letting the lieutenant governor take over, how can you say otherwise. It is a big deal but any accusation from sexual harassment, harassment to financial fraud isn't ever going to result in the removal of anyone. Speaking from my own experience - some corporations will now separate or temporarily separate individuals when there has been accusation that a manager has abused an employee below them such as assigning to a different project, building, manager, etc. while a investigation takes place. VitalSigns posted:Because of the sexual assaults? How can you say this when there wasn't an investigation? Because it not only occurred in broad day light but we've seen a consistent pattern of behavior over decades from his own TV Show, investigating journalism, court depositions where he admitted to raping is ex-wife under oath.  comedyblissoption posted:Not being removed from office does not mean voters accepted Northam's apology. This is an absolutely ridiculous position if you think to apply this to any other scandal or controversial position in which a politician served out their term. Sure, it doesn't necessarily mean that but from what I have read and watched with regards to Northam specially it appears they have made that decision. I could very well be wrong but haven't come across anything persuasive enough to suggest otherwise.
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Apr 11, 2021 02:20
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:A politician isn't just some guy. It's someone who operating a literal government. I am not speaking in the context of labor rights and "Right-To-Work" is bullshit and violates labor rights. If we were a dictatorship I'd agree with you, but we're not. We're a representative democracy. Literally everyone in the government can be replaced. And should be, if they're as despicable as people like Biden, Cuomo, and Trump.
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Apr 11, 2021 02:47
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John_A_Tallon posted:If we were a dictatorship I'd agree with you, but we're not. We're a representative democracy. Literally everyone in the government can be replaced. And should be, if they're as despicable as people like Biden, Cuomo, and Trump. And I agree but that doesn't the process to remove them will be simple or immediate.
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Apr 11, 2021 02:53
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:And I agree but that doesn't the process to remove them will be simple or immediate. You don't actually seem to care about the process, because investigations straight up aren't part of the process at all.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:05
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reignonyourparade posted:You don't actually seem to care about the process, because investigations straight up aren't part of the process at all. Aren't a part of what process? No, they aren't a part of impeachment itself but of the process of removing a politician from office.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:13
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Aren't a part of what process? No, they aren't a part of impeachment itself but of the process of removing a politician from office. They're a part of the process of NOT removing a politician from office.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:15
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just want to throw in that some liberals are so deranged from the smears about Tara Reade that they are treating her as part of some insane mccarthyist conspiracy this type of vicious smear campaign silences victims https://twitter.com/im_PULSE/status/1380910105437278210
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Apr 11, 2021 03:19
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:
iirc Trump didn't admit it under oath, Ivana alleged it under oath and he denied it. He obviously did it but I don't think he ever admitted to it. But ok, so we don't need a formal investigation to demand Trump's resignation if we've seen enough evidence to say "ok yeah he did it, it can't all be fake news". I agree. So it's wrong to demand Cuomo's resignation in light of the evidence we've seen because??? An investigation might reveal all 10 women are lying and/or secret Republicans and [insert some crazy circumstances that justify him retaliating against and attempting to intimidate these women into shutting up]???
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Apr 11, 2021 03:23
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VitalSigns posted:iirc Trump didn't admit it under oath, Ivana alleged it under oath and he denied it. He obviously did it but I don't think he ever admitted to it. No, it's not wrong to demand his resignation and as far as I am aware NY State Democrats haven't ceased this either.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:25
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, it's not wrong to demand his resignation and as far as I am aware NY State Democrats haven't ceased this either. But you just said he shouldn't be pressured into resigning without a formal investigation??? You called that "mob rule" So have you changed your mind, or is there some third option here where it's only ok to say he should resign as long as the pressure is unsuccessful?
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Apr 11, 2021 03:31
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comedyblissoption posted:just want to throw in that some liberals are so deranged from the smears about Tara Reade that they are treating her as part of some insane mccarthyist conspiracy This poo poo drives me mad. Liberal orthodoxy says you're supposed to believe Tara Reade because you believe women when they come forward with accusations about powerful men. But believing Tara Reade would mean that you just helped put yet another rapist in the White House. So you have to invent all of this insane guilt-by-association horseshit to smear a regular human being and assuage your conscience. I would respect them more if they straight up called her a liar or said they didn't care about the accusations. At least it'd be honest.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:35
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VitalSigns posted:But you just said he shouldn't be pressured into resigning without a formal investigation??? You called that "mob rule". No, I highlighted earlier how there's a difference between the circumstances of Trump, Cuomo and Franken.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:38
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, I highlighted earlier how there's a difference between the circumstances of Trump, Cuomo and Franken. The circumstances aren't the same, but they all easily meet the threshold of "yeah he definitely did it", which is my point. I mean, are all ten women lying? Is that remotely reasonable to believe, obviously not. But I don't understand your position, you say it's fine to pressure Cuomo to resign without an investigation, but you also said if he's pressured to resign before a formal investigation it's "mob rule" and you oppose it, so which is it.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:43
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VitalSigns posted:The circumstances aren't the same, but they all easily meet the threshold of "yeah he definitely did it", which is my point. No, the circumstances aren't the same. You are contradicting your earlier post as well where you said that "we didn't need a formal investigation for Trump." VitalSigns posted:I mean, are all ten women lying? Is that remotely reasonable to believe, obviously not. No, I do not think they are lying. VitalSigns posted:But I don't understand your position, you say it's fine to pressure Cuomo to resign without an investigation, but you also said if he's pressured to resign before a formal investigation it's "mob rule" and you oppose it, so which is it. I think it's fine to pressure Cuomo to resign for multiple reasons beyond the number of accusers but if there's a investigation then so be it! I responded to another poster I don't care for mob rule and I don't.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:50
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reignonyourparade posted:They're a part of the process of NOT removing a politician from office. Unless someone is resigning (which doesn't seem to be something cuomo is ever going to consider doing), actually doing a serious investigation is absolutely how you move forward with getting rid of someone. Hell, just doing the basic background stuff of 'are there huge obvious contradictions?' 'was this person physically where they say they were?' 'can we place cuomo there?' doesn't even take that long compared to doing a full prosecutorial investigation. idk what will happen or if they'll remove cuomo, but the idea that he'd be forcibly removed without even a basic investigation seems off base
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Apr 11, 2021 04:11
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Unless someone is resigning (which doesn't seem to be something cuomo is ever going to consider doing), actually doing a serious investigation is absolutely how you move forward with getting rid of someone. Hell, just doing the basic background stuff of 'are there huge obvious contradictions?' 'was this person physically where they say they were?' 'can we place cuomo there?' doesn't even take that long compared to doing a full prosecutorial investigation. Nah, what happens with an investigation is the final result is something vague, and then everyone can point to the conclusions of the investigation and go "look at that, responsibility for not removing him doesn't fall on me, it falls on the investigation" and also if you're "lucky" the investigation took long enough that not as many people even care anymore anyway, so people get to avoid all culpability for not doing what they didn't want to do in the first place. An actual impeachment vote almost certainly wouldn't result in removing him either, but there'd still be the risk of accountability for those who didn't vote to impeach him, and we can't have that now can we.
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Apr 11, 2021 04:23
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, the circumstances aren't the same. You are contradicting your earlier post as well where you said that "we didn't need a formal investigation for Trump." No I'm not contradicting myself, I agree that we didn't need a formal investigation for Trump because we don't think his accusers might be lying, and likewise we don't need one for Cuomo because Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, I do not think they are lying. Seems pretty straightforward to me! Crosby B. Alfred posted:I think it's fine to pressure Cuomo to resign for multiple reasons beyond the number of accusers but if there's a investigation then so be it! I responded to another poster I don't care for mob rule and I don't. What does mob rule have to do with anything if you agree that pressuring Cuomo to resign isn't mob rule after all?
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Apr 11, 2021 04:28
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Disagree, I think the #metoo movement is great and commendable. It means that we should listen to women no longer dismiss claims of sexual harassment as "boys will be boys" or whatever lovely excuses no matter how common they are even in the the present day. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Franken was in tour in Iraq motivating the troops and this was supposed to have been joke. Granted, it's still harassment, poor taste, etc. but remember this the perfect combination of young men, a former comedian and in the early 2000s. And to top it off, Tweeden had done similar raunchy skits. 
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Apr 11, 2021 04:31
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I'm not opposed to an investigation, but I cannot imagine what would take so long. Beyond confirming these women are who they say they are/worked where they say they worked, I doubt there's going to be much or any physical evidence and it's already a he said-she said-she said-she said-ad nauseum story. Seems like the sort of thing you could knock out in a week if you wanted to, or you could drag it out until people get tired and forget about it. But don't take my word for it. https://twitter.com/LindseyBoylan/status/1372191957586436097
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Apr 11, 2021 04:44
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Lester Shy posted:This poo poo drives me mad. Liberal orthodoxy says you're supposed to believe Tara Reade because you believe women when they come forward with accusations about powerful men. But believing Tara Reade would mean that you just helped put yet another rapist in the White House. So you have to invent all of this insane guilt-by-association horseshit to smear a regular human being and assuage your conscience. It's QAnon for liberals, not surprised it's become infused with Russiagate.
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Apr 11, 2021 05:18
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's QAnon for liberals, not surprised it's become infused with Russiagate. The worst part is, the election is over, Biden won; you don't have to smear this innocent woman anymore! I doubt anybody in MAGA World gives half a poo poo what Christine Blasey Ford is up to these days. They either didn't believe her or didn't care and Kavanaugh's on the court for life, so what's the difference anyway? But Tara Reade couldn't possibly be telling the truth because that would mean I voted for a rapist. So we have to have this constant character assassination for the rest of her life, I guess. I'm sure that won't have a chilling effect on other women with stories to tell.
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Apr 11, 2021 05:35
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Pretty much everything they ever said about BernieBros was always projection.
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Apr 11, 2021 06:16
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VitalSigns posted:No I'm not contradicting myself, I agree that we didn't need a formal investigation for Trump because we don't think his accusers might be lying, and likewise we don't need one for Cuomo because Yes, you did. Look what said earlier, you said that we don't need an investigation into Trump. As you said the circumstances aren't the same but how can they meet the threshold of "yeah he definitely did it." if we don't need an investigation into Trump? VitalSigns posted:But ok, so we don't need a formal investigation to demand Trump's resignation if we've seen enough evidence to say "ok yeah he did it, it can't all be fake news". I agree. VitalSigns posted:The circumstances aren't the same, but they all easily meet the threshold of "yeah he definitely did it", which is my point. VitalSigns posted:Seems pretty straightforward to me! Yes, it's straightforward to us but we're just two random people on the internet. VitalSigns posted:What does mob rule have to do with anything if you agree that pressuring Cuomo to resign isn't mob rule after all? I have no idea, you're the one who keeps asking about mob rule. Politicians may still choose to resign if faced if calls for resignation but if they push for an investigation I'm not opposed. What's your point? As far as I am aware, the #metoo movement isn't against consensual displays of human sexuality.
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Apr 11, 2021 18:57
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:What's your point? Let me break it down for you real slow like Crosby B. Alfred posted:Disagree, I think the #metoo movement is great and commendable. It means that we should listen to women no longer dismiss claims of sexual harassment as "boys will be boys" or whatever lovely excuses Crosby B. Alfred posted:Franken was in tour in Iraq motivating the troops and this was supposed to have been joke. Granted, it's still harassment, poor taste, etc. but remember this the perfect combination of young men, a former comedian and in the early 2000s. It was harassment but [boys will be boys] I am saying you should reread your posts with a critical eye and ask yourself why it is so many of them sound like the excuses for abusers that the MeToo movement is fighting against VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 19:34
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:According this train of thought, Biden shouldn't be president because Fixed an otherwise completely correct statement. The whole point of this thread really. Maybe don't use Biden as an example of a noble politician beset by outrageous accusations?
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Apr 11, 2021 19:58
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VitalSigns posted:Let me break it down for you real slow like There's a difference between actual sexual harassment vs. actors participating a raunchy skit that went past someone's personal boundaries. Is it stupid and offensive? Yes. Is it a criminal act? I don't believe so. VitalSigns posted:I am saying you should reread your posts with a critical eye and ask yourself why it is so many of them sound like the excuses for abusers that the MeToo movement is fighting against I have read my posts and I don't think is the case.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:14
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:There's a difference between actual sexual harassment vs. actors participating a raunchy skit that went past someone's personal boundaries. That is not what Franken did and you know this. Please stop dancing around and making all these nasty implications, Tweeden was not too sensitive about a raunchy skit, she was sexually assaulted by a serial sexual assaulter who went on to assault multiple other women. I can't tell if you're doing this on purpose to rile people up so they get punished by the mods for "impoliteness" or if you're so thick you're just repeating things you heard somewhere without grasping what you're saying, but survivors of sexual assault read this thread and can see you downplaying these assaults and making insinuations about women like Tweeden and I would appreciate it very much if you'd cut it out, even if you're not doing it on purpose. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 20:28
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It's clear he isn't arguing in good faith at this point. The belabored arguments for continued normalization of the vile status quo make it clear he has some other stake in play. Given his avatar I cannot help but wonder what his gambling position on if/when/how Cuomo is removed from office is.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:36
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VitalSigns posted:That is not what Franken did and you know this. Not exactly true, VitalSigns posted:Tweeden was not too sensitive about a raunchy skit I don't think she was too sensitive. Franken took it way too far and he should have absolutely known better as a decades long actor and writer for SNL. To me it did not rise to the point of a criminal act. Offensive? Yes. Gross? Yes. Inappropriate? Yes. Link Racy skits involving female co-stars were typical for Franken's USO tours posted:ST. PAUL-A script for a USO performance that Al Franken worked on called for "Dr. Al Franken" to perform a "breast exam" on stage before cheering American soldiers, according to Franken's own reading of the script and a video of one of the performances. The 2003 performance also included a moment where, Franken said, "I just grabbed her and kissed her, and she fights me off." Personally, I think it was dumb, offensive but then again the 2000s were ripe with stuff like Shallow Hall and Entourage. While I don't think we need or should have any of these movies today it's important to recognize that we judge people in the era in which things occurred. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 21:09
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Not exactly true, This is such a weird and bad hill to die on it's kinda making me wonder what you got upto in the early 2000s
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Apr 11, 2021 21:21
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some plague rats posted:This is such a weird and bad hill to die on it's kinda making me wonder what you got upto in the early 2000s Well, I think it's wrong to accuse someone of criminal sex acts if that isn't the case.  This isn't just my own opinion either and disputed still to this day, The still-raging controversy over Al Franken’s resignation, explained Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 21:26
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Well, I think it's wrong to accuse someone of criminal sex acts if that isn't the case. Why do you feel it's so important to defend the honour of a sexual assaulter, though? The guy acknowledged his own wrongdoing to the point he resigned as a senator over it. Why are you so driven to come in here muddying the waters talking about the culture of the time and the raunchy skits she did and dancing right up to the line of shrugging it off as "boys will be boys" without ever actually saying that? Den partisanship doesn't make sense, he's already gone
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Apr 11, 2021 21:35
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Well, I think it's wrong to accuse someone of criminal sex acts if that isn't the case. He sexually assaulted at least half a dozen women, stop acting like Tweeden is complaining about an innocent skit that went too far, Franken has a pattern of groping women and then gaslighting them about it and claiming they don't know when they've been assaulted. Tweeden is not lying or confused or mistaken about his actions or intentions, and we know that because he did it to a bunch more women! I know the mods aren't going to make you stop these sly insinuations about Tweeden because you've been doing it for pages and the only mod action was to punish someone who got fed up with your behavior, so I'm just going to ask you nicely to stop doing it, it's gross. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 21:42
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some plague rats posted:Why do you feel it's so important to defend the honour of a sexual assaulter, though? I'm not defending his honor. I think this bizarre view of binary, black-and-white vengeful morality is absolutely gross. some plague rats posted:The guy acknowledged his own wrongdoing to the point he resigned as a senator over it. Yes, he did. some plague rats posted:Why are you so driven to come in here muddying the waters talking about the culture of the time and the raunchy skits she did and dancing right up to the line of shrugging it off as "boys will be boys" without ever actually saying that? Den partisanship doesn't make sense, he's already gone You say I'm muddying waters but I don't believe that to the case and I didn't use "boys will be boys" as defense of Franken's actions. What I am saying is that his action don't rise to the level of a criminal sex act. It's like how the song "Baby it's cold" outside is sometimes commonly interrupted as a song about rape... or was the cultural and linguistics used back the 1940s completely different and hence it's just a song about the holidays?
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Apr 11, 2021 21:49
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VitalSigns posted:He sexually assaulted at least half a dozen women, stop acting like Tweeden is complaining about an innocent skit that went too far, Franken has a pattern of groping women and then gaslighting them about it and claiming they don't know when they've been assaulted. Tweeden is not lying or confused or mistaken about his actions or intentions, and we know that because he did it to a bunch more women! I'm not making any insinuations but simply repeating the facts of the case. If you disagree with them, that's your decision and I respect that. It does appears to me you seem to nearly purposefully interrupt everything negatively or a "the glass is half empty" view of the world with a sharp binary view of morality.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:53
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Franken was not accused of writing the "Baby It's Cold Outside" lyrics, he was accused of shoving his tongue down a coworker's throat at a rehearsal without her consentquote:Tweeden stated that Franken, who in 2008 had been elected to the Senate from Minnesota, insisted that they rehearse the kiss that appeared in the script for a skit in the USO show "I said 'OK' so he would stop badgering me. We did the line leading up to the kiss and then he came at me, put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth." E: Crosby B. Alfred posted:I'm not making any insinuations but simply repeating the facts of the case. No you are not and your misrepresentation of the facts has been corrected by multiple people. And yet you keep repeating the same falsehoods about what happened. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 21:53
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I'm not defending his honor. I think this bizarre view of binary, black-and-white vengeful morality is absolutely gross. As gross as doing everything you can do minimise the actions of a serial sexual harrasser? I think you and I might be coming at this with fundamentally different life experiences Crosby B. Alfred posted:What I am saying is that his action don't rise to the level of a criminal sex act. Why is this an important distinction to you? Even if you think he didn't break the law, does that make his behaviour acceptable to you? If something is legal, does that make it okay? Crosby B. Alfred posted:It's like how the song "Baby it's cold" outside is sometimes commonly interrupted as a song about rape... or was the cultural and linguistics used back the 1940s completely different and hence it's just a song about the holidays? 
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Apr 11, 2021 21:54
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VitalSigns posted:Franken was not accused of writing the "Baby It's Cold Outside" lyrics, he was accused of shoving his tongue down her throat at a rehearsal without her consent I'm making analogy how morality is viewed throughout the ages. You seem to have trouble understanding basic analogies and different threads of conversation.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:55
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I'm making analogy how morality is viewed throughout the ages. W H Y
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Apr 11, 2021 21:56
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some plague rats posted:As gross as doing everything you can do minimise the actions of a serial sexual harrasser? I think you and I might be coming at this with fundamentally different life experiences. I don't think it's minimizing it. It's merely explaining it nor do I believe Franken a serial sexual harasser. some plague rats posted:Why is this an important distinction to you? Because gross disgusting rapists should be charged and put in jail because it's loving gross. If we can't tell the difference between an actual criminal sex act vs. someone crossing another persons personal boundaries with something like a inappropriate lewd joke we are in a ton of trouble as a society. some plague rats posted:Even if you think he didn't break the law, does that make his behaviour acceptable to you? If something is legal, does that make it okay? I already said I found his behavior unacceptable more than once.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:59
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